Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by gekko

He never was facing impeachment, never will be. You need to listen clearer to what it being said. Besides, you can't impeach Bush, because you can't link him to a crime. Presidents are always scape goats, but the truth is they only give the OK. Along the way his advisors will look at the intelligence, make decisions on the best course of action, and then brief the President. The President says OK, and it's done. Plus, everything the President said was written by someone else, and evaluated numerous times before the President even sees it, so it there was anything questionable that was being said, it would've been taken out. Speeches are checked much more closely in matters of national security.

I watched in on CNN, they said he was, Im not the original stater of the fact that he was on, once again, grounds of impeachment. I was just stating what I heard on the news. Tell them about the speeches and national security. And the way your putting it, the president is just the vessel of the words for the words of the people behind the scenes.

Which is a clear sign that it is a partisan issue for you, and you wouldn't support Bush no matter what the reason.

Incorrect. The reason I thought it was bull was because of his reasons for thinking they had the weapons. I didnt disagree with him just because hes a republican or whatever, I just didnt think we should go attack some country when we havent seen a scrap of evidence that they have them. On the contrary, the UN weapon inspectors couldnt find anything, and they still cant.

Who says we don't belong? People will support and oppose anything we do, so we might as well do the right thing. And in so many ways, Vietnam was successful.

Your right, anything anyone does will have mixed opinions.

Vietnam was successful!? Thats the first time Ive heard that. Go to Washington DC, and stand in front of that wall, you know, the one with the names on it. The LONG list of names. And say that again, real loud, so people can hear you.

[gekko]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I watched in on CNN, they said he was, Im not the original stater of the fact that he was on, once again, grounds of impeachment. I was just stating what I heard on the news. Tell them about the speeches and national security. And the way your putting it, the president is just the vessel of the words for the words of the people behind the scenes.

I've read the articles that were written. Bush is not facing impeachment, and no one is currently trying to get him impeached. ATD.

Incorrect. The reason I thought it was bull was because of his reasons for thinking they had the weapons. I didnt disagree with him just because hes a republican or whatever, I just didnt think we should go attack some country when we havent seen a scrap of evidence that they have them. On the contrary, the UN weapon inspectors couldnt find anything, and they still cant.

You said you thought it was bull since the beginning, which means you didn't give him a chance. And next time pay more attention, the main arguments were over whether these weapons were a threat to America, not whether they had them. You would have to be blind to the obvious to believe that there are no WMD.

Vietnam was successful!? Thats the first time Ive heard that. Go to Washington DC, and stand in front of that wall, you know, the one with the names on it. The LONG list of names. And say that again, real loud, so people can hear you.

If that's the case, why not go look at the list of WWII casualties, or Revolutionary War casualties. Oh, and I hate to kill your point, but people would generally be happier to hear someone say that the something was accomplished by the death of the soldiers than to say their death was worthless.

And yes, look at the reasons we went into Vietnam, and look at the end result. Wasn't pretty, but Vietnam did stop the spread of communism.

[Stonecutter]

Originally Posted by gekko

And yes, look at the reasons we went into Vietnam, and look at the end result. Wasn't pretty, but Vietnam did stop the spread of communism.

*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* And the world is a much better place because we got rid of that "evil" communism. I'm not going to try and suggest that communism or socialism is a better option because they're not. They don't work, but none of those countries are any better off because of capitalism, and life in the united states would not be any different if communism were still around... well maybe we'd have McCarthyites running around arresting people for thinking differently.... oh wait, we do have guys like that, they work for Johnny Ashcroft.

And communism fell because Russia ran out of money. Had we not spent so much money building up a useless military force (useless unless you consider Armageddon a legitimate function) to fight the evil "reds" communism would still be around. There was no reason to fight it in the first place. Because the wealthy felt so threatened by the thought of a revolution in the united states they made sure that everyone saw the russians as evil, godless people. We built the largest military force in the world and russia had to try and match it, but because communism doesn't work, they couldn't, and collapsed.

Yes, other countries, for fear of constant B52 flyovers raining fire on their humble villages, desided not to attempt communist revolution. I'm not sure why that's something to be proud of but, ok, I guess.

[Bond]

I'm not going to waste my time digging up all of the evidence for you. It's obvious you, yourself, have never researched the evidence and went through the reports. It's too bad you just listen to what CNN tells you rather than finding things out for yourself.

If you would like to read the British Dossier may learn something: www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/iraqdossier.pdf

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by gekko

You said you thought it was bull since the beginning, which means you didn't give him a chance. And next time pay more attention, the main arguments were over whether these weapons were a threat to America, not whether they had them. You would have to be blind to the obvious to believe that there are no WMD.

Well, since the beginning, he hasnt had evidence. Thus there in lies why I didnt trust it since the beginning.

If that's the case, why not go look at the list of WWII casualties, or Revolutionary War casualties. Oh, and I hate to kill your point, but people would generally be happier to hear someone say that the something was accomplished by the death of the soldiers than to say their death was worthless.

Well, we won WWII and the Revolutionary War, so they didnt die in vain. Er, and hate to burst your bubble, but we lost Vietnam. We didnt stop communism from spreading. Hence the fact that the other side won, so they got what they wanted...

The soldiers deaths weren't in complete vain, fighting for your country is one of the most noble ways to go out. But, in the end, we did lose.

[gekko]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Well, since the beginning, he hasnt had evidence. Thus there in lies why I didnt trust it since the beginning.

He always had evidence. Just because no one shows you, doesn't mean it's not there. Showing evidence doesn't help our cause. "Hey look guys, here they are at a chemical facility that we haven't inspected yet." Wait, I got an idea! Why not move them before inspectors return?

Well, we won WWII and the Revolutionary War, so they didnt die in vain. Er, and hate to burst your bubble, but we lost Vietnam. We didnt stop communism from spreading. Hence the fact that the other side won, so they got what they wanted...

We lost Vietnam? Please, explain to me how we lost Vietnam.

We kicked their ass, bad. We won all the battles, and I don't think there's been a war where we have ever done better. So from a military standpoint, we sure as hell didn't lose.

We went in to stop the spread of communism, you know, the old domino effect. That sure worked. Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand all stayed free of communism due to Vietnam. Indonesia kicked the Soviets out in 1966 because of Vietnam. Vietnam not only stopped the spread of communism, but started the fall of communism.

South Vietnam lost the war, they never got their independence. The US accomplished what they went in there to do.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by bond

If you would like to read the British Dossier may learn something: http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cach...tart=1&ie=UTF-8

[/url]

Im assuming that was for me, but the link is broken. The only thing I learned from that was suggestions for looking stuff up on google.

By the way, Gekko, Im not trying to argue with you, Im just debating. I find debates quite fun.

[Bond]

Yes, I couldn't get it to link to the HTML version, so you can now view the PDF version and learn something.

[gekko]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Im assuming that was for me, but the link is broken. The only thing I learned from that was suggestions for looking stuff up on google.

By the way, Gekko, Im not trying to argue with you, Im just debating. I find debates quite fun.

Works for me. http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/iraqdossier.pdf

And finding debates fun is not necessarily a good thing. To debate means you have formed an opinion are are prepared to defend it. At 16, I see no reason why you need to form opinions on politics. In all honesty you would be better off absorbing information, and asking questions to help understand instead of arguing. Then over the next few years you'll learn something, but get really pissed off when you have to argue a 14 year old on a gaming forum about politics. Just my advice.

[The Duggler]

Posted by gekko :
Now if you believe in all that, there are no WMD, you are a moron.

So now we are morons if we don't think that there are WMDs? Well show them to me and I'll believe you, but until then, don't call me a moron.

Iraq is not communist. And Bush did say that, people didn't care. Many who support the war find it a good enough reason, then again, many who opposed the war had, and still have no idea what Saddam was actually doing. But we live in a selfish world, ending a oppressive regime is not a reason to go to war, because it doesn't affect Americans. For the same reason that until a bomb lands on your head, you could care less about WMD.

Look, your 2 reasons why the US invaded Iraq was 1-the WMD and 2-To free the population. Well, we all know what happened with number 1 and I would have to say that #2 is pretty much stupid because of the fact that there is a lot of places worse than Iraq and if it was the case then Iraq should be part 1 of a world wide crusade to "free" all those who suffer. I say that you have one hell of a job to do. Also, don't you find it odd that it's still chaos out there, that the main services have not yet been restored, but there is already oil shippement coming from Iraq?

[gekko]

He's back! *hears no clapping*

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Well show them to me and I'll believe you, but until then, don't call me a moron.

There's a long list of reasons to call you a moron. But you're a special case. Where's your buddy these days? Wonder if he got hit by a bomb

Look, your 2 reasons why the US invaded Iraq was 1-the WMD and 2-To free the population.

My two reasons? I got more than two reasons.

Well, we all know what happened with number 1

We effectively stopped the production of WMD by the Iraqi regime, and prevented the death of many.

I would have to say that #2 is pretty much stupid because of the fact that there is a lot of places worse than Iraq

Where did you hear that, the news? I mean, by all means try to pretend you actually care, but you don't. You are against helping out Iraqis, and you make no effort to help the people of these "worse places." You could care less about all of them, so why make the effort to pretend like you care? Iraq is of strategic importance, I can't believe you still haven't figured that out.

Also, don't you find it odd that it's still chaos out there,

No. Afghanistan was the same way, or did you not pay attention?

that the main services have not yet been restored,

Not a surprise, except to people who think you can rebuild a country in a day.

but there is already oil shippement coming from Iraq?

And no. It's the largest source of income the country has, and the country needs money to be rebuilt.

[The Duggler]

Posted by gekko:He's back! *hears no clapping*

There's a long list of reasons to call you a moron. But you're a special case. Where's your buddy these days? Wonder if he got hit by a bomb

huu.. Ok?

My two reasons? I got more than two reasons.

And what are those?

We effectively stopped the production of WMD by the Iraqi regime, and prevented the death of many.

Oh ok, so now it's the "production" of WMD that needed to be stopped

Where did you hear that, the news?

Why? You didn't lnow that?

I mean, by all means try to pretend you actually care, but you don't.

You're right! I don't give a ****. But are you telling me that you actually care for those people? Come on tell me the truth.

You are against helping out Iraqis, and you make no effort to help the people of these "worse places." You could care less about all of them, so why make the effort to pretend like you care?

WTF? I'm not superman, so let them die. Let them sort out their **** by themselves. It's not like we are doing much of a difference anyways. And what's that **** about me pretending to care. I'm not saying that you're doing nothing to help other miserable countries because I care for them, I'm saying that to show you that your argument about saving Iraqis is ****.

Iraq is of strategic importance, I can't believe you still haven't figured that out.

Strategic importance for what? Showing to other "non-behaving" countries to calm down? The only strategic importance I know about Iraq, is in the oil market.

No. Afghanistan was the same way, or did you not pay attention?

Then why do it? Oh yhea, they're a threat

Not a surprise, except to people who think you can rebuild a country in a day.

But the oil is sure flowing easily

And no. It's the largest source of income the country has, and the country needs money to be rebuilt.

Yhea, the country get IT'S part of the oil (being extracted by US companies) money and that part is given to some other US companies to rebuilt what you guys destroy. Amazing.

[Vampyr]

ROFL

At least its Ranzid and not me. Im just going to set by and watch.



Oh, and by the way, I agree with Stonecutter.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

But its the American's job in this world I guess, sticking our nose into places it doesnt belong. Look at Vietnam. We're trying to be the international police force, and its not working.

Oh well.

Hmm well let's look at some other real facts. I don't know if this has been brought up yet? But had America Joined The League of Nations after WWI we might have been able to stop WWII from happening, if we had had the chance to interfere with other countries, and if we hadn't went into depression we might have been able to stop Hitler. But thanks in part to a Senate in disagreement with Wilson, we didn't. Ahh Politics strike again!

[Xantar]

*pops out of his trash can*

Well, in all the debates about whether or not Iraq has any weapons of mass destruction, nobody has ever answered me this:

If Saddam Hussein didn't have any WMDs, why didn't he just comply with the weapons inspectors? Everybody agreed back then that Iraq was holding up investigations, being slow to comply with requests and generally acting like it had something to hide.

Why?

Saddam Hussein knew that he couldn't possibly win a war with the U.S. and knew that if he dragged his feet, he'd have that very war on his hands. Saddam is a little crazy, but he's not stupid. If he wanted to stay in power and he didn't in fact have any WMD program, all he had to do was say, "Come on in! The door's wide open. I'll answer all your questions regarding WMDs. You can enter any lab you want. You'll see. We don't have anything."

And that would have been that. You don't really think the U.S. would have gone to war with Iraq just to free some people who are having their human rights violated, do you? It's very sad, but the U.S. doesn't tend to stick out its neck like that.

Oh, and it's well known if you do a little research that the vast majority of oil Americans consume comes from either within the States or from Venezuela. That's right. We don't get much from the Middle East. Iraqi oil can affect worldwide prices, but not enough to make an unpopular war worthwhile. Bush had to know he'd be getting criticism every day that the war is going on. There are better ways to jump start the economy if that's what you really want to do.

P.S. Hello from Vietnam, everyone! Communism isn't working too well here, but then again, the country isn't really communist any more.