President Obama Healthcare Speech - Page 2

Bond · 09-16-2009, 12:00 PM

The bill was proposed by Max Baucus, a Democrat from Montana. Voting against your own party's bill with a 60-seat majority would be quite interesting.

Vampyr · 09-16-2009, 12:43 PM

It's hard to say without reading the actual bill, but this bill sounds like it sucks.

Quote:

Not carrying insurance could result in a steep fine, as much as $3,800 per family, or $950 for an individual. People who can't afford their premiums would be exempted from the fine.

What the hell?

1. I'm all for making people have health insurance...but only through taxes that fund a pubic option - not forcing them to give money to for-profit organizations.

2. A fine if you don't pay, but only for people who could afford to pay? First of all, this bill makes mention of people who can't afford premiums. I thought our health care reform was supposed to make sure EVERYONE can have health insurance. According to this language, there will still be a group of people who just don't have health insurance.

3. How do they calculate if you "can't afford the premiums"? Shouldn't this be an individual's decision? This scare's me quit a bit, since it's the government who decides how much a family can contribute to paying for someone's college, and they grossly overestimate that. I don't expect them to be any more lenient on this.

They need to stop trying compromise on this. By trying to be too moderate they are compromising themselves into a bill which will only change the way we do things, and not necessarily improve them by any significant amount. It's not worth changing something this complex unless you're actually going to take a big step forward. This is expensive lateral movement at best, and expensive downward movement at worst.

TheGame · 09-16-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

The bill was proposed by Max Baucus, a Democrat from Montana. Voting against your own party's bill with a 60-seat majority would be quite interesting.

Well its a double edged sword with democrats, the party is split. If they included the public option it would be daring the "conservative democrats" to vote against it, and with it not including the public option it is daring the "progressive democrats" to vote against it... So it is quiite interesting.

To me, the most important thing.. is that no matter what republicans will vote against it. So I agree with Vamp, they need to stop compromising on this bill.. As I posted earlier in the thread, 77% of people are in favor of the public option on average between the two polls. They should just do what the people want instead of bowing down to the minority.

We need campaign finance reform more then anything..

Professor S · 09-16-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGame

As I posted earlier in the thread, 77% of people are in favor of the public option on average between the two polls.

Keep in mind those numbers reflect whether or not people favor a public option, not necessarily any public option plan we've seen or that has been presented. These polls examione people's openess to the idea/concept, not the reality.

IMO the current climate reflect's people's reaction to practical application of that idea/concept.

TheGame · 09-16-2009, 03:28 PM

That'll circle us back to a debate about why things are changing. I'll agree with you on the first sentance of what you wrote.. But I don't think its "the people" who are killing or watering down healthcare reform, its the people who are paying the politicians who are killing and watering it down.

Professor S · 09-16-2009, 03:54 PM

Or it could be all the raucus town hall meetings and the thousands that showed up at the Capital over the weekend to protest... unless you think they're all employees of the healthcare companies and pharma companies (most that now support a public option, for the record).

But thats a difference of opinion and as you said, we'd be retreading old arguments.

Teuthida · 09-16-2009, 07:21 PM

^ Saw that earlier today. When the interviewer called them out and actually explained the terms to them it made me realize they're not bad people; just really stupid and misinformed folks who are force fed lies which they eat with gusto.

Professor S · 09-16-2009, 07:30 PM

And I'm quite sure only the most scholarly and well spoken opponents were chosen to be included in those videos...

KillerGremlin · 09-16-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor S

And I'm quite sure only the most scholarly and well spoken opponents were chosen to be included in those videos...

But what is the point of the rally? To offer a humane and logical alternative to socialized health care or to chastise Obama? It seems like most of the opposition in this rally is towards Obama and the current administration rather than actual policty. You and Bond have both made valid arguments concerning big Government controlling health care. And there is a lot to be said about Big Pharma's role and failed programs like Medicare and Medicaid. The Socialist ideal is NOT Hitler nor is it communism. Nor is Obama trying to make America a socialist country...health care reform is a logical step in the progress of humanity.

I realize this interviewer probably cherry picked the dumbest of the dumb, but why show up to a rally if you don't have any idea what you are rallying about?

KillerGremlin · 09-16-2009, 08:07 PM

Before this erupts into a passionate discussion I just want to say something about rallies and protests. Rallies and protests are supposed to inspire OTHER people as well as to make a statement and a stand. I look at the Civil Rights rallies or the Feminist rallies or the anti-Vietnam protests or the LBGT protests and I think...."wow...look at those brave people standing up for major injustice. Look at those people stand up for the struggling, suffering people out there."

When I look at these tea party rallies I think, "Wow...a bunch of dumb rednecks don't care about health care reform (they don't care about the millions of people with no health care) and they don't know the difference between political terms most people should have learned in 5th grade. And look! They think Obama is the anti-Christ! Because it says it in the Bible! Oh man...as a Catholic who has gone to church for 20 years, I bet big money that guy hasn't even read the Bible!"

If this rally was supposed to inspire me then I must confess I am quite flaccid. On the other hand, I have enjoyed the discussions here between Prof S and TheGame, you guys are quite entertaining.

And Bond's maturity is perhaps a little too sobering for my tastes at times, but he makes some valid points. And Earl dresses up like Batman every night. So it's a win win.

Bond · 09-16-2009, 11:45 PM

Okay, first of all, no one serious holds the views depicted in that video. The United States is a very, very populous country. We have plenty of room for misguided souls. I am confident the persons depicted in the video represent an extreme minority.

So, why do they receive so much attention? Because of this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

You and Bond have both made valid arguments concerning big Government controlling health care.

Right, but does anyone on TV want to see someone like me bring out charts and bar graphs to demonstrate economic forces behind health care changes? I doubt it. On the other hand, who wants to see someone dumber than them make a fool of themselves on national TV? Lots of people!

I don't think we should be so much angry at these protestors for holding their views, but rather try to understand why they believe it to be so?

TheGame · 09-17-2009, 01:21 AM

Professor, the part in the speech where it was inturrupted by a "you lie" shout.. was Obama lying? To me the racism doesn't come in what is being argued, its how its being argued. Its being led by a lot of misguided hate and fear mongering.

Where were all the animated protests when Dick Cheny famously said "deficits don't matter"? Where were the congressmen yelling out "you lie" when Bush was linking Iraq to 9-11? Why weren't people standing outside of Bush town halls with their guns? Why is Obama constantly called a racist?

And Bond, I think its cheap to blame the media for the faults of the people who are actually making fools of themselves. The media would have no Ammo to play such "entertaining" opposition to the president if conservative talk show hosts, republican congressmen, and misguided Glen Beck followers didn't GIVE them the ammo to begin with. The media didn't make anyone blurt out "you lie" in an extremely disrespectful manner, a republican representative did it on his own.

Unless he's in on the media conspiracy too...

-EDIT-

Just to add to the last point a little. Do you think the Media should have congradulated or focused on all the other republican congressmen for staying quiet and not blurting out anything? Really?

TheGame · 09-16-2009, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor S

And I'm quite sure only the most scholarly and well spoken opponents were chosen to be included in those videos...

A scholarly and well spoken person probably wouldn't support the 9-12 deal, and probably woulnd't yell out like a moron at a town hall meeting.

Vampyr · 09-16-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGame

A scholarly and well spoken person probably wouldn't support the 9-12 deal, and probably woulnd't yell out like a moron at a town hall meeting.

YOU LIE.

TheGame · 09-16-2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

YOU LIE.

Haha.. damn you got me there... though I wouldn't call the guy who yelled that well spoken.