State Your Religion

[Neo]

then I'll make this absolute statement of fact:

If you think that is a fact then you need lessons in quantum physics.

Since the level changing of electrons in many atoms defies all scientific laws that we know,

Electrons change levels in all atoms, not just many. And they defy no scientific laws. Please name a single law you think is being violated. I have a degree in physics so I at least think I know what I'm talking about, but I would definitely like to know in case I was asleep in class that day.

and those laws are considered hard facts and we base all of atomic theory on them, the fact that they defy those laws means that the atom doesn't exist.

Are you kidding me?

There are no atoms now. But wait, don't there have to be atoms? Then what are we touching? Well, who knows, but we do know since atoms don't make any sense anymore because of a minor contradiction. They don't exist anymore. We don't exist. I'm not writing this right now.

I never said religion doesn't exist. Of course it exists. It's ridiculous to say that a lack of understanding = nonexistence. And no that is not the same thing as saying God doesn't exist because we don't understand him. We don't understand God because it's completely illogical and unnecessary. And even though the exact mechanism of quantum leaping may not be completely understood, that doesn't mean it never will be understood. There are quantum physical theories dealing with this anyway. And science is NOT a faith. To say so means you don't understand how science works at all. Science is means of objectively gathering evidence and then generating models based on those theories. Religion is about blind adherence to an invisible man who lives in the sky for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

You need to do some research yourself before you start claiming things as absolute fact.

Science is also about repeatibility. If we get the same result over and over then we conclude that our current models seem to provide an accurate description of reality. We believe the results but that's not the same thing as faith. Faith is belief without rational thought or evidence. And even if a model is supported by evidence, that doesn't mean that I have 100% "faith" in it. There is always room for doubt. In religion there is no doubt. You either believe or you disbelieve.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I do not agree at all and honestly history doesn;t agree with you either. Look up the history of religions and morality and how they relate to one another. Look up how advanced man was before they were combined and advanced through religion. This idea that the morals that we hold dear today would exist without religion is a complete fabrication.

Man truly started to advance with onset of science. I may concede to you though that religion jump-started man's interest in morality. It definitely had an impact on our society. But I also believe we will outgrow it eventually.

Neo, you do not understand faith and its immense power for good as well as evil. All you see is evil because you've never cared to examine the good. Until you do, you will never understand religion or really understand why you are so angry at it.

I understand it quite well, thank you. Of course religion has done some good. A thing is rarely wholly good or bad. What is sad is that people feel they need this emotional crutch to be happy. The truth is they don't. It's a psychological prison from which man needs to escape before they will be truly free. I'm not being angry, though I sense much anger from you. Everything you said about me I could easily say about yourself.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Neo

I never said religion doesn't exist. Of course it exists. It's ridiculous to say that a lack of understanding = nonexistence. And no that is not the same thing as saying God doesn't exist because we don't understand him. We don't understand God because it's completely illogical and unnecessary. And even though the exact mechanism of quantum leaping may not be completely understood, that doesn't mean it never will be understood. There are quantum physical theories dealing with this anyway. And science is NOT a faith. To say so means you don't understand how science works at all. Science is means of objectively gathering evidence and then generating models based on those theories. Religion is about blind adherence to an invisible man who lives in the sky for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

This is where you lose me in your arguments. You are so convinced that science holds tha answers to everything you put all your faith in it, but cannot even imagine putting faith into God. Its just mindboggling that as a scientist you would completely disregard one thoery out of hand because you don't understand it.

You say there is no evidence of God's existence. I sa the proof is all around you and as a scientist you deal with His proof daily. You want evidence, when any proof of God would destroy him. Proof denies faith and without faith God is nothing. The fact you want empirical evidence shows that you don't enderstand the philisophical basics religion.

As for the example you wanted, you gave it to me. Electrons jump levels when according to the laws of science they can only exist on a level. So if they can only exist on a level, how do they move levels without ceasing to exist? Is there a finite time or space they travel through? There are theories and conjecture as to how this happens, but in the end there is no proof. You accept that there is a scientific explanation on faith. You accept that we will find the link between bacteria and single celled organisms on faith.

Why can't you just even consider God as an option? The more I've learned about science and physics the more my faith in God has beened re-affirmed. You can't explain religion, but you can't disprove it, just as the more scientific knowledge we gain, the more questions we discover on a daily basis. And even if science can discover more and more information, does that mean that God dosn't exist? How can you simply eliminate God out of hand? Its rediculous. And with that I bid this argument adeu, as I'm starting to repeat myself.

EDIT: Found this explanation Q&A about level jumping.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=18923

If this isn't close to being religious faith in something, I have no idea what is. One theory is that electrons cease to exist on one level and then just exist on another. If this is true, I see no better "proof" of the existence of God than that.

[Teuthida]

This reminds me of that vid where Kirk Cameron and another fellow disprove evolution by asking misinformed college students questions resulting in unsure answers and sitting down to dinner with an orangutan who's lack of table manners proved that humans never evolved from a lower primate.

Why can't everyone just believe what they want? You can't prove God exists to anyone but yourself. And what we know through science changes day by day. I doubt either of you are going to change the other's mind.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Professor S

This is where you lose me in your arguments. You are so convinced that science holds tha answers to everything you put all your faith in it, but cannot even imagine putting faith into God. Its just mindboggling that as a scientist you would completely disregard one thoery out of hand because you don't understand it.

Strangely enough I do consider God to be an option, though I know no one would ever be able to tell that from what I said. You may not believe me when I say this but I really hope that you are right and there is a God of some kind. There are in fact a few quantum physical theories floating around which support the existence of a God or universal consciousness of some kind. They’re not completely fleshed out and aren’t backed yet by hard math, but the potential is there. See The Spiritual Universe by Fred Alan Wolf. Some reviewers feel the book is too technical, but I think it provides something religion is lacking in that it tries to provide a quantum physical basis for the soul and for the existence of God. I’m not saying I think he has everything completely figured out but it does demonstrate what a powerful tool physics can be.


This is the only way I know how to believe in God. I can’t just make myself do it out of faith. Every time I try I get these nagging doubts in the back of my mind like “that’s not evidence of design, that’s an example of a well-adapted DNA pattern” or “that’s not God I’m feeling, it’s a chemical reaction within my body.” Even if an angel materialized in front of me I would probably search around for a holographic projector. If there isn't one then I would notice that the angel is obviously emitting photons of light which my brain is interpreting as electrical signals, so the angel must be composed of electrons which generate the photons therefore it is physical in origin. You see what I mean?

The fact you want empirical evidence shows that you don't enderstand the philisophical basics religion.

Quite possible. I took a philosophy of religion course once but it was really a history class. I don't know how God would react to me asking for quantifiable evidence of existence. Would he be glad I am inquisitive, or would he be sad that I can't just have faith in him?

As for the example you wanted, you gave it to me. Electrons jump levels when according to the laws of science they can only exist on a level. So if they can only exist on a level, how do they move levels without ceasing to exist? Is there a finite time or space they travel through?

The honest answer is I don't know. My personal belief is that it is related to holographic models of existence based on new research which shows that the information contained within a black hole is proportional to its surface are, not its volume. That's a fancy way of saying the information of the 3D object (black hole) is contained on a 2D surface (event horizon), just like a hologram. Now holographic plates have the curious property that if you smash them into tiny bits, you can shine a laser though any fragment and reproduce the whole image. In other words the information of the whole object is contained within every point on the plate. We would never know that from looking at the hologram. To us it looks as though the hologram has height, width, and length, when in reality that's just an illusion. There are a few physicists who think our universe might operate in a similar fashion. So an electron doesn't really jump from level to level over a physical distance since on the holographic plate of reality the electron hasn't really moved at all.

Same would be true for the spooky "action at a distance" scenario where two particles created together and sent off in opposite directions always seem to know what each other is doing. If one particle is flipped to spin-up, then the other particle immediately becomes spin-down, though no information has passed between them (as this would violate relativity). This seems impossible unless you think of the world as a giant hologram. While to us it appears as though the particles are separated by a great distance, on a 2D holographic surface they're actually right on top of each other.

There are theories and conjecture as to how this happens, but in the end there is no proof. You accept that there is a scientific explanation on faith.

I suppose that's true depending on your definition of faith. I have faith an explanation will be found since physics has provided me with so many good explanations for other phenomena.

You accept that we will find the link between bacteria and single celled organisms on faith.

Biology was never my forte so I really can't comment on that. It would seem more logical to me that a physical rather than divine mechanism will eventually be found based on the past successes of evolutionary biology, but I am rather ignorant of how those things develop.

And even if science can discover more and more information, does that mean that God dosn't exist?

Not at all. I would say that more we learn about the world the less we need to fall back on the "well God made it that way" explanation but no it certainly doesn't prove God doesn't exist.

How can you simply eliminate God out of hand? Its rediculous.

As a scientist you're right I can't eliminate God. I can build a case for or against him, but I can never fully eliminate anything.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=18923

If this isn't close to being religious faith in something, I have no idea what is. One theory is that electrons cease to exist on one level and then just exist on another. If this is true, I see no better "proof" of the existence of God than that.

Yeah that's probably more in line with the Copenhagen interpretation, which is really less of an interpretation and more of a "don't ask don't tell" policy. Physicists who subscribe to Copenhagen (and it is a majority of them) view these events purely in terms of statistical mathematics and say that it's meaningless to ask how for example a particle can be in two places at once. I think what happens is that students of physics study the philosophical implications until they get headaches at which time they simply stop thinking about as they're not able to get anywhere, save for the ones I mentioned doing the black hole research. There are tons of books on the metaphysical interpretations of quantum physics but that topic is beyond the scope of this post. In the world of quantum physics probability is treated as a real "thing" which can be described by equations. It really is quite bizarre but extremely interesting at the same time.

[KillerGremlin]

I was born and raised Catholic. I have been going to church for many, many years. And, as I child, I absorbed faith with little care. Eventually, I reached a point where I lost a lot of faith, I didn't feel that my life had any particular purpose and I didn't understand how faith or spirituality could possibly exist in a world so cruel and empty. Well, in the past 2 or 3 years I have slowly felt a gradual awakening to life and faith. I have met someone, and I have felt what I believe is true love and compassion. I have also gotten older, and in the past few months I have began to contemplate my mortality and my life.

I come from a fairly strong foundation in science. Based on what I have learned and have seen, it appears that things like evolution do hold truths. Also, it seems that the earth is easily older than 6000 years. However, as Xantar pointed out, I'm not sure how important these facts are in reference to the bible. Nowhere in the bible does it spell out that the earth is 6000 years old, it has just been conjectured based on the dates in the bible.

I've tried to incorporate some philosophies and thoughts into my search.

One philosophical path I am having trouble coping with is the purpose of life. Let's say the only purpose of life is to eat, sleep, reproduce and die. Then why do humans feel compassion and love? Why do we have the feelings that we have, why do we question life? Some argue that our fear of death is evolutions greatest defense mechanism against death, but I disagree. I feel that if our place in life was soley to eat, sleep, reproduce, die, and evolve; I feel that there would be no need for compassion, love, or any of that.

My biggest flaw is that much like Neo I feel that I need to find evidence. I guess that completely nullifies the point of faith. And, in my mind the evidence is there. We have historical figures and prophets; people like Moses, Abraham and Jesus. And that is a definitive start.

I don't buy into Near Death Experiences, as it has been hypothesized and will most likely be proven that right before death your penal gland secretes large amounts of DMT. DMT is a powerful psychoactive substance, and it has been suggested that it is responsible for the things people have seen during NDEs.

One thing is for certain however; I feel that modern science, and especially physicists are walking a fine line between knowledge and arrogance. I believe it is the height of human arrogance to assume any definitive answer as to why the universe is. Quantum mechanics has been offered as an explanation as to how we think and why a planet with life could exist amid such chaos. They even have theories as to what happened when Time < 0, or before the big bang. Apparently some scientists hypothesize that there are multiple universes, and that they collide, and that all sorts of zany shit happens ever few billions or trillions of years. And, to that I ask, "Why? How?"

Science is the study of how things work. With science, we can analyze systems and based on how that system behaves we can establish a set of rules for analyzes future systems. However, science has yet to answer the "why."

Either way, I won't know and you won't know until it happens. And when it happens we may or may not know. But for me, these past few years have been a sort of spiritual awakening, and I'm starting to find faith in God again.

Maybe my search will last me till my final days on earth, and maybe it will only last me for a few years. But I hope that I can make peace with life sooner than later.

[Renwood]

Something happened. More than that is loud conjecture.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Renwood

Something happened. More than that is loud conjecture.

Care to elaborate?

[Combine 017]

I loathe Christianity, and I have no religion. I believe in evolution, not so much that humans came from a pile of goo in the ground, just that things evolve and adapt. Natural selection is the way to go, except I believe in that to harshly.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Combine 017

I loathe Christianity, and I have no religion. I believe in evolution, not so much that humans came from a pile of goo in the ground, just that things evolve and adapt. Natural selection is the way to go, except I believe in that to harshly.

What do you believe happens when you die? And, would you be content with "nothing." Although, the term "nothing" is in fact just a word used to describe a human perception that does not exist.

[Renwood]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Care to elaborate?

The living brain cannot comprehend the non-living brain, though it may think it can.

[BlueFire]

Originally Posted by Combine 017

I loathe Christianity, and I have no religion. I believe in evolution, not so much that humans came from a pile of goo in the ground, just that things evolve and adapt. Natural selection is the way to go, except I believe in that to harshly.

Not to sound like I'm in the defense of Christianity here, but evolution isn't a religion and there are plenty of Christians who think evolution is correct, despite what is said in the Bible.


Since this topic has been revived, I find myself in the same situation (although maybe not. I just glanced at my old post). Maybe I put off examining faith.. I don't know. After I read "Fear and Trembling" by Kierkegaard, I was really influenced by some of the things that man said on faith. Of course, I don't hold such extreme views... however, I hope one day I'm able to make peace with life and with faith.

I feel my other yearning for faith and religion is really just a need for something after death. It's strange this topic has been revived at this time, because you could say I've been having an interesting couple of days. On Friday, my dog that I've had since I was 9 was put down in front of me. It was truly a painful experience and I'm not entirely over it yet. This pain of loss is just so unreal at times, I can't even believe it's actually happened. Also, a sort of friend/acquaintance of mine is going through a tough time. His brother committed suicide on Friday. Needless to say, my friends and I talk and death has been on our mind. The idea of everything just stopping... all loss of feeling, sensation, consciousness. This is something our minds cannot comprehend. As it stands, I really hope there is life after death. But do I believe it? I don't know... I just wish it exists. Life could seem bleak and almost pointless. Of course, people move past this, either by forgetting about one's mortality or accepting the notion of an afterlife. There are also people who just accept death as a part of life. Regardless, it's still a scary thought.

I have a hard time admitting it to myself, but I sort of believe there is a higher being. I just can't say much more than that.

[Combine 017]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

What do you believe happens when you die? And, would you be content with "nothing." Although, the term "nothing" is in fact just a word used to describe a human perception that does not exist.

Yeah i'd be content with "nothing". None of that Heaven/Hell stuff. Or maybe something like; when you die you believe in what you want to happen and your put into that situation. Such as going to heaven, or in my case, going to the Half-Life universe.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by BLueFire

Not to sound like I'm in the defense of Christianity here, but evolution isn't a religion and there are plenty of Christians who think evolution is correct, despite what is said in the Bible.


Since this topic has been revived, I find myself in the same situation (although maybe not. I just glanced at my old post). Maybe I put off examining faith.. I don't know. After I read "Fear and Trembling" by Kierkegaard, I was really influenced by some of the things that man said on faith. Of course, I don't hold such extreme views... however, I hope one day I'm able to make peace with life and with faith.

I feel my other yearning for faith and religion is really just a need for something after death. It's strange this topic has been revived at this time, because you could say I've been having an interesting couple of days. On Friday, my dog that I've had since I was 9 was put down in front of me. It was truly a painful experience and I'm not entirely over it yet. This pain of loss is just so unreal at times, I can't even believe it's actually happened. Also, a sort of friend/acquaintance of mine is going through a tough time. His brother committed suicide on Friday. Needless to say, my friends and I talk and death has been on our mind. The idea of everything just stopping... all loss of feeling, sensation, consciousness. This is something our minds cannot comprehend. As it stands, I really hope there is life after death. But do I believe it? I don't know... I just wish it exists. Life could seem bleak and almost pointless. Of course, people move past this, either by forgetting about one's mortality or accepting the notion of an afterlife. There are also people who just accept death as a part of life. Regardless, it's still a scary thought.

I have a hard time admitting it to myself, but I sort of believe there is a higher being. I just can't say much more than that.

To me, it seems odd that something as natural as death could be the subject of so much thought and conjecture. If anything, that seems to me to be an indication that we should give it some thought and that we should embrace it with some joy, and that it is part of this mystical journey through life. Maybe something wonderful awaits at the end of the tunnel, maybe our thoughts will span out infinitely and we will exist as memories, recalling past experiences and seeing loved ones. And maybe, we will not be aware as we were before we were born. Regardless, as someone who grew up reading the Bible and going to church, I feel that there are many good things to take from the Bible and the preachings of Jesus. Christianity may have been skewed over the past 2000 years, especially during the 1400 and 1500s, but I feel that by removing faith from my life I have bruised my soul. I'm still finding my footing with religion, I do not approve of a lot of things organized religion has done, but at it's root I feel the intentions are good. Or at least they were, until people started using religion to push their own motives and philosophies on people.

Anyway....good times, good times.