Perfect Dark, not until 2005

[The Germanator]

Yes, could you tell by my foul language?

[Null]

Originally Posted by CamFuBot

Are you a student?

lol. pwned :P

[TheGame]

I remember the days when people here were salivating over one little funky screenshot of Kameo, and when people were saying Rare was Nintendo's answer for Square at the Sony camp... hmm, I've been going to these (and Nintendose/nintendodolphin.net) forums for 4 years now... hmm...

[Canyarion]

Yeah well that was in the period when we were playing Golden Eye, Banjo Kazooie and Perfect Dark. Now look what we have: SFA and Grabbed by the Ghoulies....

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Canyarion

Yeah well that was in the period when we were playing Golden Eye, Banjo Kazooie and Perfect Dark. Now look what we have: SFA and Grabbed by the Ghoulies....

A early generation game that was overhauled to put a Nintendo licened character in it and the first obviously rushed game Rare makes for Xbox... real fair comparison. That's about as valid as Square fans saying Squaresoft seemed to be losing there touch when Bouncer was released on Ps2.

I'd rather not jump to conclusions until Conker, Banjo, or (most importantly) Perfect Dark is released... until then I take all bitching about rare as people here being mad Rare left Nintendo.

[Null]

And i'll take some as ppl being mad, and some as ppl just seeing whats infront of them.
on the flip side i'll take some that refuse to see it as people clinging to a hope that ms didnt waste money on rare.

not that thats anyone here. just yanno. in general

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Null

And i'll take some as ppl being mad, and some as ppl just seeing whats infront of them.
on the flip side i'll take some that refuse to see it as people clinging to a hope that ms didnt waste money on rare.

not that thats anyone here. just yanno. in general

I see what's in front of me just like the next guy... I didn't expect SFA or GBG to be any better than they were. I just find it funny that people bash them and say they a crap for games that weren't a part of what made rare good in the first place.

Hey... I'l admit... I'm a perfect dark fanboy. Until they burn me and make a crappy version of Perfect dark (or a crappy FPS in general) I will be clinging on to the fact that Rare hasn't shown there post sale potential yet. If rare was still with Nintendo I would think the same exact way (even though in that case they would have much less excuses for having GBG and SFA being there last two games).

[Null]

i didnt say you. hehe

[Blix]

Originally Posted by Bond

So if Rare made Conker this same "too furry" look on the Nintendo GameCube you would feel the same way? Because you have to admit Rare was praised a lot around here when they were owned by Nintendo, and now that they are owned by Microsoft they are borderline hated.

I don't like the model either and I don't think there's anything biased in it. I personally would hate it the same if it was in the GC. And really, are you that impressed with what rare has done so far this generation? Rare hasn't really made me happy of owning one of their games since the late N64 days (Perfect Dark and Conker being the only two exceptions). I was hoping for the company to return to its roots of great gameplay mechanics and productivity but man, my patience isn't infite. Star Fox left a bad taste in me and the company takes foever and a day to make one game now. Not only that but Rare now kept only their name becuase most of their talent went away.I.e. they're pretty much an empty shell IMO. So who knows how the games might turn out to be? I am still expecting PD and Conker but this conker model (Suposing it is not a joke. And I think they changed Perfect Dark to cell shading which is really far from what the series began like) is really bringing my hopes even lower. If they don't really deliver with these games I might just forget about the existence of the company.

So this goes from waaaaay before the company was bought by Microsoft. Really, I think it's a cheap scapegoat to frame every one who dislikes rare stuff now as a fanboy. You better come up with something else.

[Jonbo298]

"Can't be a joke. Came straight from IGN"

[TheGame]

Heh heh heh

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I don't like the model either and I don't think there's anything biased in it. I personally would hate it the same if it was in the GC.

Well, that's good to know

And really, are you that impressed with what rare has done so far this generation?

No... but do I have to be impressed? Do you watch sports? Think of Rare as a star player traded early in the season... you can't expect him to be an MVP again just because it's him, he has to get used to his surroundings and eventually will fit into the team, and be good. Oh, and think of Star Fox adventures as that player's last effort on his old team before he got traded (and he knew he was getting traded, which took away the desire to perform well)

Anybody in to sports will understand what I mean... if you are not, well, the fact is Rare hasn't burned me on the titles I liked from them, thus I'm not passing judgment. I think your expectations are just set a little too high, did you honestly like EVERY single game Rare released on N64 and SNES?

I bet if Nintendo was sold to Microsoft and the only game they made for the first year was Mario party 4, a true Nintendo fan wouldn't call them crap and would patently wait for them to screw over Mario or Zelda (which they did to a certain extent )... that's how my relationship with Rare is working, GBG is just like Mario party to a Nintendo fan, not somthing I would use to measure the state of a certain company. I'll patently wait for them to screw up Perfect Dark before I kick MS in the nuts for buying them.

As for the developers leaving the company... remember, only the original company can completly rip off everythiong that made the last game great. Also, I'm sure they have enough developers around from the old game to reproduce it, I don't think Microsoft is that stupid...

And I think they changed Perfect Dark to cell shading which is really far from what the series began like) is really bringing my hopes even lower.

Where did you hear that? I only heard that they are changing the Joanna Dark Model, and not the whole game to cell shading...

Also, Microsoft isn't a scape goat for why people are bashing rare so bad nowadays, it's the only reason they are getting bashed. The fact is, once rare left Nintendo Rare became the enemy to most, and people started to bring out all there flaws. It has nothing to do with there preformance on Xbox... I remember when rare said they will try to release 5 games for Xbox in it's first year. Nintendo fans "Oh no! Microsoft is ruining them by making them release too much too fast, they won't give them the time to make there games great like nintendo did"... Now microsoft gives them time: "Oh, rare is crap, they haven't released a good game in years... even though SFA got decent scores and GBG is rushed I'd rather ignore everything buy these two games and call them crap"

Yes... people who bash Rare right now piss me off. But oh well, bitch all you want, eventually the truth will come out. If the truth is that they are bad, or good, I'd rather wait and see before passing judgment on such bad examples.

[Blix]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Heh heh heh



Well, that's good to know



No... but do I have to be impressed? Do you watch sports? Think of Rare as a star player traded early in the season... you can't expect him to be an MVP again just because it's him, he has to get used to his surroundings and eventually will fit into the team, and be good. Oh, and think of Star Fox adventures as that player's last effort on his old team before he got traded (and he knew he was getting traded, which took away the desire to perform well)

Anybody in to sports will understand what I mean... if you are not, well, the fact is Rare hasn't burned me on the titles I liked from them, thus I'm not passing judgment. I think your expectations are just set a little too high, did you honestly like EVERY single game Rare released on N64 and SNES?

I bet if Nintendo was sold to Microsoft and the only game they made for the first year was Mario party 4, a true Nintendo fan wouldn't call them crap and would patently wait for them to screw over Mario or Zelda (which they did to a certain extent )... that's how my relationship with Rare is working, GBG is just like Mario party to a Nintendo fan, not somthing I would use to measure the state of a certain company. I'll patently wait for them to screw up Perfect Dark before I kick MS in the nuts for buying them.

As for the developers leaving the company... remember, only the original company can completly rip off everythiong that made the last game great. Also, I'm sure they have enough developers around from the old game to reproduce it, I don't think Microsoft is that stupid...



Where did you hear that? I only heard that they are changing the Joanna Dark Model, and not the whole game to cell shading...

Also, Microsoft isn't a scape goat for why people are bashing rare so bad nowadays, it's the only reason they are getting bashed. The fact is, once rare left Nintendo Rare became the enemy to most, and people started to bring out all there flaws. It has nothing to do with there preformance on Xbox... I remember when rare said they will try to release 5 games for Xbox in it's first year. Nintendo fans "Oh no! Microsoft is ruining them by making them release too much too fast, they won't give them the time to make there games great like nintendo did"... Now microsoft gives them time: "Oh, rare is crap, they haven't released a good game in years... even though SFA got decent scores and GBG is rushed I'd rather ignore everything buy these two games and call them crap"

Yes... people who bash Rare right now piss me off. But oh well, bitch all you want, eventually the truth will come out. If the truth is that they are bad, or good, I'd rather wait and see before passing judgment on such bad examples.

Before continuing I'd like to explain that since this thread was pretty much about rare games coming out after a long time I thought Concker's model was a joke as in he looks reaaally old in that pic. I always liked it that Conker looks cute but is really a devil and that was part of what made the game fun. I don't see any reason for them to put that effect (or at least in the exagerated way they did) there. About Johana's model... I said I wasn't sure just that I thought they had changed it. The only thing I saw was the model.Having that out of the way I'll continue with the topic at hand.

I'm not a big fan of any sport, and really I think if I'm to follow your analogy, rare has been showing decadence since the N64 days. They don't produce nearly as much and in their last games they have just made games that depend waay to much on senseless collecting. The fact that you aren't impressed shows they're not in the same level as before.

Getting used to its sorroundings? What are you talking about? They had begun development on Dinasour planet since before the GC had begun. They were one of the first companies to have development kits (had begun development on that game years before that) yet took a considerable amount of time to make the game - They could have at least fixed the inecessary collecting in the game in that time and show they learned from DK64's errors. Now they have MS backing them up and the Xbox is easy to work with. Even if they had to get used to whatever sorroundings it is you're talking about I don't think it should take THIS much time.

I had put as an example in the past (not sure if in this thread) the fact that Factor 5 could make a whole game -and add the latest sound technology in the last three months of development- in just around 8 or 9 months -Can't remember exactly how much. You might be right in that I may be setting my hopes too high for them. I'll give you the benefit of doubt there but after waiting so long for SFA (and other games too) and it not coming near my expectations I think it is inevitable to be like this.

It's also interesting that you claim you have read people being negative after Rare being sold to MS. I don't remember anybody being THAT optimistic in any forum I went to. Without any kind of sarcasm I say I'd like to know where you read people saying that stuff. The way I remember it, people were really quiet about them. All I ever read after that were vague comments which I wouldn't really say were optimistic. After all, they had nothing to praise them for at the moment since the company was inactive. But I only come here and to gamingforce so I'll give you the benefit of doubt here also. I just don't like to go to places where threads are pretty much like "Ohhh, I'm so right and you're so wrong111111eleven111eleven" 'No, you're so wrong and I'm oh so right!!!!!1one1111one111one!'

The difference between the Nintendo example and the rare example is that Nintendo takes a lot less time to develop games and they haven't really let me down on a game I was really anticipating (Unlike SFA). I am giving them a chance to redeem themself with PD (Had you read my last post closely you would have noticed) so I don't see why you are saying I'm not giving them a chance. I have much more to write but have to go now. I'll continue when I get home.

Edit: Back home.

I can also understand some people saying that Nintendo "screwed Mario and Zelda to a certain level) since they were trying something new. Had Rare tried something new I'd be in the same stance about them. But like I said, they just repeated the same errors. The bottom line... Nintendo may have its ups and downs but Rare seems to have stuck in a down and I'm still waiting for them to get their up.

And to finish my "bitching" let me remind you what started your "bitching". One guy says he doesn't like the Conker's model and you go on saying he has hard feelings towards rare and is a fanboy. I already made it clear why one can not like Conker's new model. I can't accept Paranoia as a way to measure other's opinions and that's just what that is: Paranoia. It's not like they can't feel frustrated about Rare. As Stu already said, it's pointless to try to come to conclusions about what might have caused some one to think they way he or she does. So, until you have some better argument I'll just consider this a cheap scapegoat. I hope I made myself clear and that you understand, if not... Oh well...

[TheGame]

Ha... nice to see someone responded while I was gone.

Your post wasn't laid out very well, so I'm going to take it one topic at a time:

1) What the topic is about and who started the "bitching"

"And to finish my "bitching" let me remind you what started your "bitching". One guy says he doesn't like the Conker's model and you go on saying he has hard feelings towards rare and is a fanboy."

Maybe you should take a second look at the begining of the thread... I wasn't swaying it off topic, others were. I called nobody a fanboy, and my first post to even look off topic came at the end of the second page where I was just saying what I had seen over time.

2) Rare and new surroundings

You underestimate how hard making a switch like that is. Rare was loved in the N64 days but they were never a developer who could toss out high end games fast... period.

As for SFA, it's delays had nothing to do with Game quality, It was coming up on the end of the N64 generation and they decided to change it to gamecube... so all the work they put into it was ripped down and built back up on GCN. Then, after that, Nintendo decided to change the game to have a Nintendo licenced character in it... did they do this because it wouldn't sell without Star Fox on it, or because they were about to sell Rare and wanted to keep it exclusive? We'll never know... On top of that undenied Rumors of Rare being sold were circling around the net before Star Fox was even released. If Rare knew they were getting sold wouldn't they want to wrap up there last GCN projects? Thus rushing a game that was delayed out.

Also, Rare didn't know who they were getting sold to, and had no reason to start to learn and perfect development on Xbox. Upon getting sold they had the option to port or rebuild games from the ground up, looking at the amount of time Kameo is taking I think they are rebuilding.

Don't compare someone like factor 5 to Rare... Rare never was one to just unload a ton of great games without long development cycles, and in there prime (on N64) they were slower than they had ever been. You are expecting them to adapt to a whole new company and hardware in less than 2 years when it took them more 2 years to make a game on hardware they understood and had masterd (N64)... yes, you are expecting too much. If Rare was getting games out fast they wouldn't be the same Rare they were on N64.

3) Nintendo/Rare comparision

"The difference between the Nintendo example and the rare example is that Nintendo takes a lot less time to develop games and they haven't really let me down on a game I was really anticipating (Unlike SFA). "

No, the difference is that you simply like Nintendo's games more than Rare's and Nintendo has yet to go through the same situation as Rare...

"I am giving them a chance to redeem themself with PD (Had you read my last post closely you would have noticed) so I don't see why you are saying I'm not giving them a chance"

I wasn't refering directly to you when I said people aren't giving Rare a chance. But at the same time I am... Your wounds may run deep with Rare, but mine don't. SFA and GBG are games I'm turning a blind eye to because I didn't expect them to be good, I wasn't anticipating them, and those games in no way could have influenced my opinion on Rare.

You, on the other hand, were expecting SFA to somehow be better than previous Rare Adventure games? It's your fault for expecting too much. SFA still got decent scores, and from what I have played it felt just like a Rare game. Like Breakabone said, Rare is hit and miss with there adventure games... some people love (BanjoK, JFG, and Conker) and some people hate (BanjoT and DK). SFA was neither crap nor great, and I didn't expect anything more than what I got out of it.

Expectations are the base of opinions, so in my opinion your expectations were way too high. I mean, what exactly made you think SFA would be great? The second they put star fox on it I could tell there would be problems.

4) Microsoft used as a scapegoat for Rare bashing

There was only one person in the forums I remember who used to bash Rare left and right, and that was gekko. But everybody hated gekko. There was no major foul talk about Rare here until they were sold to microsoft, and that is a fact. I can see that as a lame excuse all you want, but everything points toward people looking down upon Rare more now that they are with MS.

Like I said before, I prefer to wait until there flagship titles come out then bitch about them now like you are. I don't care if they lost 99.9% of there developers and if SFA and GBG were the worst two games released in gaming history, until they screw up Pefect Dark, I'm not judging them. But that's me, you can set your unreasonably high expectations wherever you want them.

[Jonbo298]

Jesus christ people, all I said was I dont like the look of Conker. I never said anything about its gameplay, or in fact ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL besides that I dont like the way he looks.

[Blix]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Ha... nice to see someone responded while I was gone.
I don't know how to take this commentary. A joke? Something serious? In any case, I have to deal with a lot of things in College and you replied while I couldn't respond (And I still have a pretty busy schedule just so you know). So, I'd say we're even)

Your post wasn't laid out very well, so I'm going to take it one topic at a time:
Sorry about that. I prefer to post inside quotes and go step by step -like you did- but since you had already done it with my post I didn't want it to get really messy.

1) What the topic is about and who started the "bitching"

"And to finish my "bitching" let me remind you what started your "bitching". One guy says he doesn't like the Conker's model and you go on saying he has hard feelings towards rare and is a fanboy."

Maybe you should take a second look at the begining of the thread... I wasn't swaying it off topic, others were. I called nobody a fanboy, and my first post to even look off topic came at the end of the second page where I was just saying what I had seen over time.

I know that, I quoted Bond the first time ( and you backed him up and got on his side ). You think like him and if Bond hadn't implied his idea was biased you would have done it in his place because. At the very end it would not be the first time you do it. In other threads you are among the first to bring out the "Nintendo fanboys" argument. I could use that "I didn't refer to you directly, but at the same time I did." thing you said.

2) Rare and new surroundings

You underestimate how hard making a switch like that is.
Please elaborate.
Rare was loved in the N64 days but they were never a developer who could toss out high end games fast... period.

As for SFA, it's delays had nothing to do with Game quality, It was coming up on the end of the N64 generation and they decided to change it to gamecube... so all the work they put into it was ripped down and built back up on GCN. Then, after that, Nintendo decided to change the game to have a Nintendo licenced character in it... did they do this because it wouldn't sell without Star Fox on it, or because they were about to sell Rare and wanted to keep it exclusive? We'll never know... On top of that undenied Rumors of Rare being sold were circling around the net before Star Fox was even released. If Rare knew they were getting sold wouldn't they want to wrap up there last GCN projects? Thus rushing a game that was delayed out.

They still had one to two (impresive) game(s) out a year. Starfox was impressive in graphics but that was pretty much all. They had always managed to have something fresh. Conker was mainly about the jokes. JFG had you killing everybody until you could finally get to the next level and the hidden spaceships on the stages to get you to hidden stages and such. SFA felt like playing Zelda with part of the collecting of DK64 which wasn't what I was expecting.With all the extra time they had while they (suposing you're right) started out all the models and stuff they could have worked on the collecting issue, but it seems they didn't. I hope that gets you a clear view of why I was (in a certain way) let down.The game did feel like a Rare game, I never said it didn't. And actually, why would Star Fox make the game any worse/better? I was actually happy to see Star Fox in a new way.


Also, Rare didn't know who they were getting sold to, and had no reason to start to learn and perfect development on Xbox. Upon getting sold they had the option to port or rebuild games from the ground up, looking at the amount of time Kameo is taking I think they are rebuilding.

I don't see why they would have to rebuild it. There must be some things they can just port. Seeing all the ports there are, and the little difference there is in graphics... I don't think it would have been that huge of a problem.
Don't compare someone like factor 5 to Rare... Rare never was one to just unload a ton of great games without long development cycles, and in there prime (on N64) they were slower than they had ever been. You are expecting them to adapt to a whole new company and hardware in less than 2 years when it took them more 2 years to make a game on hardware they understood and had masterd (N64)... yes, you are expecting too much. If Rare was getting games out fast they wouldn't be the same Rare they were on N64.
I know they were never ones to make games fast. But the N64 was considerably hard to work with. I remember Shigueru Miyamoto saying the GC was a whole lot easier to program for and then someone from MS claiming the Xbox was easier than the GC. I think that at least it should be around the level of the GC. And even then they still had at least one game out a year. I don't think it should take them THIS LONG to make a game. Suposing they had begun learning how to develop for the Xbox on 2002... why is it taking them more than two years for those games? PD; 2005. Conker; 2005. Kameo; 2005? GBG seems just like they're tryiing to say: Hey, we did something! " and excuse themself. It's not that it's taking its time, it's that it's taking WAAAAY TOO MUCH TIME even when I take into consideration they weren't that fast (but they weren't this slow either).

And Frankly, the money they were going to make for selling the game on the GC was the same they would have made in the Xbox (Except faster). I don't see how they would have rushed the game. In the very end this is all about the money and the game was the last one they'd see selling for some time (although I am unsure of how GBG did, but I haven't heard anything extraordinary about it). And it would have left them better expectations for the next game if they had made it better. They could have taken more time to finish it if that was the reason. They could since Nintendo had the deal with them before MS.

3) Nintendo/Rare comparision

"The difference between the Nintendo example and the rare example is that Nintendo takes a lot less time to develop games and they haven't really let me down on a game I was really anticipating (Unlike SFA). "

No, the difference is that you simply like Nintendo's games more than Rare's and Nintendo has yet to go through the same situation as Rare...

Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, JFG, Conker... Dang, you're so dead wrong here. I think I had express it here that I needed a fix of PD and that a friend of mine has taken my 64 away so I was angry. Just for comparisons I don't need (or will need) a fix of OOT in the near future. You assume too much (which is what this debate is all about.) I don't think Nintendo would take so long to get used to it's new sorroundings and/or wouldn't have a good game out by now on MS if they had been sold to them by the same time as Rare either. So, same case, different results.

"I am giving them a chance to redeem themself with PD (Had you read my last post closely you would have noticed) so I don't see why you are saying I'm not giving them a chance"

I wasn't refering directly to you when I said people aren't giving Rare a chance. But at the same time I am... Your wounds may run deep with Rare, but mine don't. SFA and GBG are games I'm turning a blind eye to because I didn't expect them to be good, I wasn't anticipating them, and those games in no way could have influenced my opinion on Rare.
Can't I be unhappy at the moment for their current condition? The thing is that you want me to be happy at the moment when their situation is worse (or bad for the first time IMO) than when they were on the 64. They were far more productive at that time and had games I actually enjoyed a lot. When Nintendo makes something you don't like you are one of the first people to point out how the situation isn't what you'd like it to be and how other companies are better. That's right, you don't think positive about how the other games might be better. You go on saying how things are at the moment. It doesn't mean they can't get better, it doesn't mean either that you are biased or have hard feelings or anything againts the company (right?). I think I deserve the same right.
You, on the other hand, were expecting SFA to somehow be better than previous Rare Adventure games? It's your fault for expecting too much. SFA still got decent scores, and from what I have played it felt just like a Rare game. Like Breakabone said, Rare is hit and miss with there adventure games... some people love (BanjoK, JFG, and Conker) and some people hate (BanjoT and DK). SFA was neither crap nor great, and I didn't expect anything more than what I got out of it.
I stated my reasons above. I was expecting something new in the game. Not necessary a whole complete concept, but at least a certain degree of new things in the game.
Expectations are the base of opinions,I agree so in my opinion your expectations were way too high What did you expect me to expect from them? Something not as good as what I had seen them make? Another DK was not something I expected. I mean, what exactly made you think SFA would be great? The second they put star fox on it I could tell there would be problems. Yup, read up there!

4) Microsoft used as a scapegoat for Rare bashing

There was only one person in the forums I remember who used to bash Rare left and right, and that was gekko. But everybody hated gekko. There was no major foul talk about Rare here until they were sold to microsoft, and that is a fact. I can see that as a lame excuse all you want, but everything points toward people looking down upon Rare more now that they are with MS.

Let me express it yet again. I think their situation is actually bad at the moment. I don't care if they're with MS or Sony or Nintendo or whatever, I've simply not had a reason to be happy about them in a long time. Not that I am not expecting their new games (Cuz I sure as heck will bye PD, Conker and most probably Cameo.) or have lost all my faith in the company. It's just that. And when I make a bad comment about Rare, I am not doing so because I feel bad (or "Wounded") I do it because I simply don't like what's going on. Can you quote me on ever saying something pesimist about them? The only thing I remember ever saying was that PD may be overshadowed by Halo and you were convinced by my reasons (Well, you never replied after listening to my reasons and I know you're not one to shut up

Like I said before, I prefer to wait until there flagship titles come out then bitch about them now like you are. I don't care if they lost 99.9% of there developers and if SFA and GBG were the worst two games released in gaming history, until they screw up Pefect Dark, I'm not judging them. But that's me, you can set your unreasonably high expectations wherever you want them.

The thing here is how I feel and how you're making me look. I don't know how many times I have to say I am looking foward their future games for you to get that into your head. I am not satisfied with what they have done but that doesn't mean I'm not giving them a chance or anything. It just means the last two games, which you didn't care about but I did, have left a bad taste in me. Now, is that reason enough for you to say that I am being "pessimist" becuase they are with MS? No! If you had cared about those games and not got what you were expecting, how would you feel? I supose like how we will both feel if they mess up PD, right? You can say I set the standard too high but, like I said, I was expecting a game with Rare's standards. Was it not to be excpeted from... Rare? Just to point out something... I am currently not happy with Pikmin. There, happy?

Notice how I have never gone bashing out either game (I had to make some points here so that's the only reason I pointed out SFA;s flaws). I am not a person who likes to point out flaws and stuff about games. I think there's more than enough people willing to do so, so I leave it to them. But when I see another person saying something and being in his right to, and then see how another person tries to invalidate his opinion by framing them... that just pisses me off. I personally won't let anyone intimidate me with such things or belittle my opinion. Do I think there are some people who may have hard feelings towards them and are biased? You bet I do. Just like there are PS2 and Xbox fanboys too. But you just seem to want to skip the debating and go straight into labeling them.