Don't believe in God? Why not?

[nWoCHRISnWo]

LeonMagnolis, the topic is "Why don't you believe in God?"

Then you say "And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God" If you're implying the people who are saying there's no god in this topic is trying to tell you there's no god, then you obviously can't read.

"Then why should we have to prove something right to prove it is real?"

Who says you have to? This is a topic about why we DON'T believe in god, and I'm telling you. You're giving us a lotta crap about odds and what John 3:19 says for no reason. I said "I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real." Key word: I

And how exactly could we prove you wrong if we were right? We can't because like I said millions of times before, you'd have to die first. Everything about religion is just so convenient for the people who are arguing in favor of it because there's absolutely nothing we can do to prove it wrong. But ask yourself this: Can you prove there is a god? If so, please prove it to me. You can't. So if I can't prove it wrong, and you can't prove it to be true, then I'll go by logic. And logic says that there isn't an all-powerful being who can control everyone in the world.

And of course there's that question again that NOBODY can answer: Who made god? Does god have a god?

As for your quote "I'm trying to see from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass." thanks for it, I could use it for many religious people.

"Have you ever thought about what the world would be like without religion? Can you even comprehend that?"

Nope, I can't comprehend that... Because it would be too good of a place compared to what we have now. Religion just starts fights, wars, and causes millions of deaths. The attack on the WTC buildings wouldn't have happened if it weren't for religion. WWII? Religion. Should I go on?

"Your senses are fooling you. Space is actually a bright pink zebra with four heads and three hooves on each foot.

Oh it's not? Then prove me otherwise."

What the hell are you trying to say here? I said the universe is all around me... IT IS. It's a fact, if you wanna argue this then you're too stupid to have an opinion on anything anyway. It's also a fact that I don't see god, and neither do you. I don't hear god, and neither do you. I don't feel god's hand helping me when I need help, and neither do you. So if you can't see him, touch him, hear him, then you have no clue if he's real do you? No, you don't. So why do you believe him?

Here's something that I said ealier in this topic: "I don't believe in god because I (as well as pretty much everyone else I know) don't believe in stuff until it can be proven. People use the argument "Well, you can't prove there ISN'T a god, can you?" and I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real. Like I said hundreds of times before, if you're going to believe something that can't be scientifically proven just because it makes sense to you and your prayers have come true, then you'd have to try every single religion to see if you were right."

And you seem to like to talk about odds. Well, you never mention that odds of there being a god... And using simple logic, I think you can agree with me that the odds are too horrible to even comprehend. I mean, have you ever seen an all powerful being that can do anything he wants? Have you ever seen someone who just lives in someplace we never see? Have you ever seen someone create millions and millions of people before? I'll assume you answer "no" to the questions, then the odds of there being a god is pretty damn bad. So giving the odds you gave about the science crap, yes, I'd take them odds over the odds of there being a god.

Staying on the topic about odds, what do you think the odds that your religion is right over every other religion? Have you tried every religion? No you haven't, because that's impossible. So the odds of your religion, being right over every other one that you've never even heard of aren't very good, are they?

"Now STFU or GTFO. That pretty much sums up what I have to say about that. If you want to have an opinion about something, at least have some basis...Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order? As I said before-- think before you post."

This ALWAYS happens when arguing with religious people. You use odds when it's convenient for you, you use logic when it's convenient for you, you use faith when it's convenient for you, you use whatever is convenient for you at the time. Look at this example here. You say that guy had no basis for thinking that some rich guy made up the story about god, yet you read the story out of a book that you don't know who made it. It could have been monkeys that wrote that book for all you know, yet you believe this book. And then you say "Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order?" So know you're using simple logic, eh? Well do YOU really think that there's such a thing as a superbeing with magical powers?

Just use logic. You can't prove there's god. You can't prove there's ever been something/someone that is at all similar to god. You can't prove there's a heaven or hell. You can't prove there ever was a garden of eden or whatever. You can't find me anyone that can prove that. So using very simple logic, I've come to the conclusion god just isn't real.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Originally posted by The_Dunadan
god wasn't created by anybody. what i'm about to tell you is mind boggling but.........

god always was. no beginning no end.

Oh really? So I'll say so was the universe, and scientists have answers for most everything else after we know how the universe was created (it "alway swas") so I guess there's no more argument then. There's no god, right?

[TheGrimReaper]

Cant we all just beleive what we want to beleive, stop making stupid topics, and get on with our lives?

Im all for debates, but this one has been made over and over...

[DeathsHand]

Speaking of how the universe was created...

god aside, I find it weird that it would always be here...

and yet... before it was, what was here?.....



Just trying to switch the conversation a little bit even though it won't work and it's off topic

[Neo]

Well it involves the fact that "nothing" is actually something. virtual particles are being created all the time, they just pop up out of the void and then return to it. I'm not going to go into details, but the point is quantum physics doesn't need God to explain the emergence of the universe.

And it doesn't make sense to talk about "before", since time and space came into being together.

[DeathsHand]

Originally posted by Neo
Well it involves the fact that "nothing" is actually something. virtual particles are being created all the time, they just pop up out of the void and then return to it. I'm not going to go into details, but the point is quantum physics doesn't need God to explain the emergence of the universe.

And it doesn't make sense to talk about "before", since time and space came into being together.

umm... yes.... good point...

well since I don't pay attention to all that stuff, I'll just... walk... away now...............

[BigJustinW]

Originally posted by Neo
Well it involves the fact that "nothing" is actually something. virtual particles are being created all the time, they just pop up out of the void and then return to it. I'm not going to go into details, but the point is quantum physics doesn't need God to explain the emergence of the universe.

The first thing I learned about science and the elements

"It's impossible to make somthing from nothing"

[sdtPikachu]

RSI hell here I come... (pun not intended by the way)

"From religions we aquired: our time scale-- 7 days in a week, 12 months in a year, AD and BC"

Pointless - our calendar is based on the seasons, not by religious edict (apart from the seven day week thing, which is conveniently just the simplest way to split up a 28 day period). Did you not find it odd that non-christian cultures also developed the 12 month year etc etc? Month - 28 day lunar cycle, which has been messed about with by various people (esp. the romans) to fit in with the rather chaotic mess the whole calendar is. In 10,000 years time our calendar will have changed. In 10 million years it will be totally different.
AD and BC are totally arbitary scales, and have no meaning really. They're just what we in the western world mark as "ground zero". Most major cultures not based on the bible have different ground zeros.

"We got explorers finding new worlds under the pretense of evangilism."

Also curiosity, also greed, also being a stubborn bastard and saying "look you fools, the earth is round and I KNOW I can get to India this way much quicker... damnit, what's this America-shaped thing I've run into?"

"The reading and writing system we have today was used by the clergy to teach Biblical scriptures."

During the dark ages, the church was in total control and no-one aprt from religious leaders and members was taught how to read or write, so the church could remain in control. It was onlt during the Renaissance and with the advent of the printing press that education of the masses became feasible (with, I might add, the stauch opposotin of most of the church - they thought the idea of someone reading and understanding a copy of the bible in their own home was blasphemous).

"As stupid as you may think religion is, noone can deny that it has done huge things to shape the world as it is today"

Yep... as well as propagating moral codes and establishing the initial strategies for a stable large civilisation under the pretext of fear, it has also been responsible for some of the greatest wars and atrocities in history. It's certainly shaped the world alright.

"you cannot overlook the fact that we would not be anywhere today without religion. "

Not a fact. See some of your later posts regarding what you cvlassify as "fact" and "not-fact." Like me, you have no idea what the world would be like today if religion had never existed. Naturally, the initial reaction you will have is that it would be a much worse place. I wonder.

"that progression may well include a logical explanation for the creation of the universe with or without God."

It may indeed, in which case you'll find me saying "Oh well, looks like I was wrong then". It may also lead to an explanation for everything religion has answers for that science doesn't... yet...

"True faith is believing in something that you cannot prove."

And that's why I have no true faith. The point of this thread, I think. Although you can look at it objectively and say that nothing can be proved, and we just believe we exist and see the stuff we see. But I draw the line at believing things I can see and touch.

" Jesus wasn't just "made up." I know that for a fact"

How? Do you know something not even the top biblical scholars in the world know? Jesus is present in records made by humans, there are no living eyewitnesses, and no time machine. Therefore, you cannot prove these documents are true, and you cannot say that it is a fact that Jesus existed. You may, like me, believe he existed (although as you picked up on I don't think he was a godsent figure at all) but you cannot say for a fact that he did.

"Do you really believe that they [religions] were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order?"

Is that really such a ridiculous hypothesis? Although I think you'll find that most religons were actually introduced to whole countries by the government, usually as the result of influence over a leader. Christianity wasn't actually getting anywhere fast until it was made official religion of the Roman Empire.

"See above about the things that Christianity and religion in general have brought into the world."

You can see it in the papers too. Usually on the front page.

" In case you're wondering, mathmatical statistic impossibility occures at 1*10^600"

I'm no mathematician, but I've found a page which debunks this, as well as the way you arrived at this number. Once I find it, I'll post it for your perusal. But from what I remember your calculation leaves out several important biological factors.

"And you think that other planets really defeated those odds?"

I never said that other planets supporte life (although chris may have done). But I accept it as a possibility.

"Could a worldwide flood possably destroy small parts of the world?"

Begs the question of a) how a flood formed in the first place b) how all the animals survived and c) where the evidence of it is today

" I don't trust everything that every scientist says, and you shouldn't trust everything that every pastor says. The best thing to do would be to read the Bible"

So you hold the bible to be an infallible record of everything it contains? Namely, that if the bible says something, and the evidence saus something else, then the bible is right? I don't mean to start a literary/spritual argument, I just wish to nkow how you perceive all this.

"What makes you think that we're the worst?"

War, mainly. And the way we f**k each other over so well and so often. And don't even get me started on destroying species, habitats, global climate change, etc.

"That would be a waste of cheddar!!!"

Would it still be a waste of cheddar if it granted you eternal life in a blissful paradise? Seems like a good religion to follow, if you ask me. Especially if you're the owner af a chedar factory.

"Read Job and tell me how vague the descriptions of the bohemoth and the leviathan are."

If I remember correctly, they're about as close to the description of dozens of other beasts which we understand as mythical. If you could post the relevant passages or provide a link I'd be most appreciative.

"I've heard that question so many times it's not even funny."

And you begin your rant that god has the ability to change everything at will, therefore rendering science useless as it relies on observable constants (namely radioisotopes, amongst others). If this is the case, then we are at an impass; because scientific logic will always fail when faced with "god did it".

"it would make sense that he woudl add age to what he made, wouldn't it?"

Well to me it would make more sense that god didn't exist at all and the age things have is... uh... how old they are.

"Well I'm happy to see that you acknowledge that he existed no matter what his diety was."

I believe he existed... the way you phrased it made it sound like I KNEW he existed, IMO. And I don't regard him as affiliated with any deity whatsoever.

"It's not his responsibility to control us."

Then why bother having a god? If he can't or won't control his subjects, why should I believe he exists if I can still see no evidence for it? At all?

"One in 1*10^75937500000 is easier to believe then God?"

Maybe I should do a bit of maths on this... hmm, what are the chances of molecules combinig in just the right way to make a god?
No, I'm only joking. Like I said above, I'm still trying to find that page (it was on a site with about 3 million pages and I can't remember which heading it was under). Bah.

"And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God."

I am not trying to convert you. See title of topic.

"But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with."

So the ability to change your mind automatically makes it weak? I change my outlook on things due to changes in evidence. It has no effect on my beliefs as yet.
And I guess I can take it as read that, by this comment, there is no possibility that you will admit the possibility that you could be wrong. Sigh.

"Many Christains and hypocrats"

Heh... personally, I find it odd that you seperate the two. But no matter.

"Then why should we have to prove something right to prove it is real?"

Firstly: we can't prove anything right. Secondly: we can't prove anything is real. All we can do is say stuff like "things fall down. Why? Dunno. Oh hold on, maybe there's a big magnet under trhe floor. Hold on, it attracts everything though. OK, must be some other kind of force. I'll call it gravity, and work out how it works mathematically". Thirdly: I therefore have to believe what I can see, and everything I see bears the hall marks of having no divine deity involved in it's construction from my POV.

"And this again goes back to proving God wrong or right."

No, it doesn't. I have never tried to prove god wrong or right. It's just that my scientific beliefs are incompatible with any religous ones I may have had.

"I'm not going to try to explain God's mentality because frankly, I can't. And neither can you."

You're quite right; IMO, either god is a total schizo freak who doesn't know what he's doing, or he's actually trying to get people sent to hell. Or maybe the whole "believe in my teachings, or die forever horribly!" just harks back to wanting to get people to do what they're told to.

[next post]

[sdtPikachu]

"I'm not sure exactly where you're coming up with that, but I still choose how to live my life."

What I was saying that, if you take many religions literally (as IMO too many people do), strict aherence to one usually totally prohibits knowledge of any others, contact with them, etc etc. It also means that if I do things that my religion specifically prohibits (examples include masturbation, pre-marital sex, eating beef, swallowing a fly, talking in public, reading the paper) I am hellbound. That is how religion controls lives, and by disrgarding this "threat" totally I am free to do whatever the f**k I want. And, it has to be said, I enjoy it immensely.
If you have similar joy adhering to the beliefs you adhere to, then that's fine by me. But bear in mind that the bible has alot to say about how to treat "other" people. If you've transcended these pretty horrible rules, well done.

"Look how perfectly the earth works and tell me that there was no thought or effort put into it and it happened by chance."

Look how perfectly the world works? Hello, am I missing something? Only last time I looked, it was on the verge of a total mental, physical, chemical, biological, economical, environmental etc etc collapse. From everything I've seen of it, it appears far from having any thought put into it at all. It is a system with deep, almost innumerable flaws.

"I'm trying to see from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass."

This should either be directed at no-one at all or at everyone altogether. Otherwise, you're singling out a single person/group of people and criticising for them for their beliefs.

"There was a case a while ago of a recently dead snail being dated at over five million years old."

Oooh well lookie here, an error in a single radiometric dating result?! Surely, then that's conclusive proof that every single radiometric dating method is all totally wrong? Do you even know how many radiometric tests have been made? Cos I doubt if I can count that high in a day without getting terminally bored of counting.

"I do know how carbon dating is done... What's to prevent more of one of the isotopes then the other?"

Then you obviously don't know how carbon dating works.
See my posts above on how it doesn't even apply to fossils. You may also see me refer to carbon dating as being one of the more inaccurate methods as it relies on some assumptions which we are only 70% or so sure of. These don't apply to other methods due to the nature of the isotopes in question.

" i meant like lutherans, catholics, mormons, baptists, etc. like which of those is right."

So buddhism, paganism and all the rest are wrong?

"now to answer the question which religion(all religions) is right, well, i dunno"

Ah, an improvement at least. As for your research as to which one is "right" I wish you luck... you may need several billion dollars to spend on weaponry as well, because once you "prove" one to be right or wrong, there are going to be plenty of people who disagree with you, and have alot of very sharp sticks to emphasise their point.
Hence why I think you should just accept that every belief system has it's own merits, and if someone chooses to believe in one over another, thenthat is their choice and they should be left to it.

"how does one prove the scientific method scientifically?"

The scientific method isn't based on science, it's based on logic. Science is merely the application of observation, experimentation applied logically to the universe around us.
As an example... science sees something which looks like a petrol engine. It smells like a petrol engine. It makes a noise like a petrol engine. When you take it to bits, it looks like a petrol engine inside. When you put petrol and oil in it, it makes a shaft spin around. Hence science calls it a petrol engine and feeds it petrol in order to keep it running.
Religion however is perfectly happy calling it a sausage and saying it draws its power from the cosmic rays. Although when it suits them, it's a petrol engine.

Onto Joeiss...

Afterlife I suppose is one of those unknowns. If, like me, you believe there to be no spiritual afterlife, then you either accept no afterlife or you choose to make up your own in life. I imagine everyone has nique thoughts on this. But this is a theological/psychological discussion, so not really applicable here.

"I think that there should be a religion that just promotes peace and unity."

Well, if you want a religion like that, Buddhism is a good one. Or Universal Unitarianism. Or Secular Humanism. They, after all, both preach and practice it.

"and they will be great people if they join this "help everybody" religion."

For me, it's a belief, not a religon. A very important distinction.

" I think about this alot, and I still am confused, very, very much confused at that."

And it's something that only you can decide as well. Accept only what you see as truthful and good and helpful to all others. Yes, it is confusing when you come to doubt some or all parts of your faith. It is just something that each and every one of us has to figure out themselves.

As far as god vs. big bang (or any of the other scientific theories based on the creation of out universe), you're right, nobody knows which is true. But only science is actually seeking to explain them with evidence. Given time, I would say an answer one way or another is inevitable.

"Love all. Strive to be equal to all. Respect all nations, religions, and nature. Follow the plans that Marting Luther King jr. did. And most of all, do not think that just because somebody is not up to your standards, or do not follow the same views as you, do not think less of them. Because everybody is unique, and precious."

Yep.

"god always was"

[Insert]I believe...

"science... can't speak on issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality"

Philosophy, psychology.

"science is dependent on the values and personal beliefs of those who use it"

Which can be rationalised scientifically... but the actual execution of the scientific method requires the absence of any persoanl beliefs or values (which are known as "bias" amogst the scientific community).

"science can be used for both good and bad"

And surely this depends on the nature of the people using it's products? Again, not part of the topic.

"it can be used to argue for God or against Him"

There are very few ways of using science to argue for a god...

"science by itself offers no moral guidance or values to govern our lives. all science can do is show us how natural law works, but it tells us nothing about its origins."

No. Science can already explain how it is possible for us to have evolved from a bunch of inert matter... this accounts for our origins, I believe. As for moral and value systems, again, these can be explained by science (namely sociology, anthropology and psychology). Is it beneficial for society to allow those within it to kill each other? No, because it lowers genetic diversity, although it can be essential in the competition for resources to ensure the survial of the best adapted genetic lineage. Can we have sex with our own parents? No, becuuse this leads to genetic monoculture which leads to the proliferation of latent mutations and disease susceptibility. Believe it or not, even something as subjective as "human nature" can be explained scientifically.

"Can you prove there is a god? If so, please prove it to me. You can't. So if I can't prove it wrong, and you can't prove it to be true, then I'll go by logic. And logic says that there isn't an all-powerful being who can control everyone in the world."

And there was me thinking that I'd never be seen agreeing with nwoChris...

"Staying on the topic about odds, what do you think the odds that your religion is right over every other religion?"

That's easy Chris. My god says I'm right, and they all worship false gods and are mad infidels. Too easy. [/sarcasm]

"It's impossible to make somthing from nothing"

Well... theoretical quantum mechanics have proved this not to be the case I believe.


Have people yet comprehended why I don't believe in god? I am not trying to convince anyone that their beliefs are wrong. I am just trying to show you why I believe mine.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Originally posted by sdtPikachu
Have people yet comprehended why I don't believe in god? I am not trying to convince anyone that their beliefs are wrong. I am just trying to show you why I believe mine.

Exactly.

[LeonMagnolis]

:: Slowly works his way through three bags of chips, a Whopper, a medium cherry coke, a bowl of icecream, a glass of milk, and an altoids mint as he reads Chris's long and winded post. :: I'm about to deem your post not worth arguing because it's-- annoying-- to argue with nitpickers. But I have some spare time and a couple shots of Jamacian rum left, so I might as well.

Then you say "And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God" If you're implying the people who are saying there's no god in this topic is trying to tell you there's no god, then you obviously can't read.

Oh come now-- you don't need to stoop to insults, my friend. And do try to take things in context. If you would take a second look and read my post more carefully, you might catch the small fact that I said that in response to one of the atheists in here saying "I am tired of Christians trying to convince me that there is a God." Ahh, here it is. now read again and try to look at the bigger picture instead of finding every little problem you can with my posts.

<< --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I too am also annoyed at attempts to "educate" (read: convert) me to believing in a god
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God. But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with.>>>

Now read the WHOLE post, and maybe you'll see that I had a point that was not directed at you or anyone else here, but was just something that we should all keep in mind in general.

Who says you have to? This is a topic about why we DON'T believe in god, and I'm telling you. You're giving us a lotta crap about odds and what John 3:19 says for no reason. I said "I don't have to prove something wrong to know it's not real." Key word: I

:: Raises a brow. ::

John three nineteen? You mean three sixteen, right? Again, TRY to take things in context. The only scripture I quoted was for Justin to set him straight about several common misconceptions he had. Now I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack me for that, but perhaps if you read Revelation 40:93, everything may become clear for you. :: Sarcasm. ::

As I said before, I don't expect to get the answers from a bunch of kids. I don't expect to be able to solve every Biblical paradox and every arguement ever brought against Christainity. Let me spell this out for you-- "I don't expect to get all the answers from a video game forum."

And how exactly could we prove you wrong if we were right? We can't because like I said millions of times before, you'd have to die first. Everything about religion is just so convenient for the people who are arguing in favor of it because there's absolutely nothing we can do to prove it wrong. But ask yourself this: Can you prove there is a god? If so, please prove it to me. You can't. So if I can't prove it wrong, and you can't prove it to be true, then I'll go by logic. And logic says that there isn't an all-powerful being who can control everyone in the world.

Hmm-- can I prove there is a God. Tell you what-- look at the other hundred or so posts here and read a little. You just might see that everyone here understands that there is no way to prove that there is or isn't a God. After that, look at your post again.

And once more, I do believe your logic is flawed.

And of course there's that question again that NOBODY can answer: Who made god? Does god have a god?

I'll admit that in these arguements, many times, the Christians overlook the Atheists posts and simply ignore the details-- but seeing an atheist ignore a Christian's post-- that's something new now.

Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so.

Nope, I can't comprehend that... Because it would be too good of a place compared to what we have now. Religion just starts fights, wars, and causes millions of deaths. The attack on the WTC buildings wouldn't have happened if it weren't for religion. WWII? Religion. Should I go on?

Oh come now-- there he goes ignoring my post once more. No, there wouldn't have been a 9/11 attack, because odds are the WTC wouldn't have existed. How can you blame WW2 on Religion? Do you really think that Hitler would have stayed silent if he had no "religion." NO. He would have easily found some other foothold.

What the hell are you trying to say here? I said the universe is all around me... IT IS. It's a fact, if you wanna argue this then you're too stupid to have an opinion on anything anyway. It's also a fact that I don't see god, and neither do you. I don't hear god, and neither do you. I don't feel god's hand helping me when I need help, and neither do you. So if you can't see him, touch him, hear him, then you have no clue if he's real do you? No, you don't. So why do you believe him?

Once more, let's not result to petty insults.

Prove to me the universe exists using scientific methods. Prove to me that there is space out there. Prove to me that my senses are not decieving me and that we're not all riding on a disc shaped world on the back of four elephants who in turn ride ont he back of the great turtle a'tun. Prove to me that what we see is really here. I don't feel the universe, but you believe it's there. Go ahead, feel the space. Tell me what you see. Take a look at space. Is it real? Or are your senses just decieving you?
So if you can't feel space, and if you can't touch it, smell it, hear it, or taste it, then you have no clue if it's real, don't you.

And you seem to like to talk about odds. Well, you never mention that odds of there being a god... And using simple logic, I think you can agree with me that the odds are too horrible to even comprehend. I mean, have you ever seen an all powerful being that can do anything he wants? Have you ever seen someone who just lives in someplace we never see? Have you ever seen someone create millions and millions of people before? I'll assume you answer "no" to the questions, then the odds of there being a god is pretty damn bad. So giving the odds you gave about the science crap, yes, I'd take them odds over the odds of there being a god.

:: Raises a brow. ::

Have you ever studied probability before? Take a course or two. I did. You should too. It might clear this gross misconception that you seem to have about being able to estimate the odds of there being a god.

Now understand that to measure the odds of something, it must be possable. For God to create something, He Himself must exist, therefore, in a very subtle on your part and nitpicky on my part way, you've admitted that he does exist.

The gory details aside, as I said before, take a course or two on probability and perhaps you'll understand what i'm talking about.

Staying on the topic about odds, what do you think the odds that your religion is right over every other religion? Have you tried every religion? No you haven't, because that's impossible. So the odds of your religion, being right over every other one that you've never even heard of aren't very good, are they?

Oh come now-- I do believe that this was addressed in the other posts. As I said before, dont' randomly skip parts of a post. You might miss something.

[LeonMagnolis]

This ALWAYS happens when arguing with religious people. You use odds when it's convenient for you, you use logic when it's convenient for you, you use faith when it's convenient for you, you use whatever is convenient for you at the time.

:: Claps sarcastically ::

Let's give this man a hand-- he understands the most basic part of propaganda and debate.

Look at this example here. You say that guy had no basis for thinking that some rich guy made up the story about god, yet you read the story out of a book that you don't know who made it. It could have been monkeys that wrote that book for all you know, yet you believe this book.

Actually it was written by a variaty of authors spanning the last tenthousand or so years and put together by the council of carthage in-- 414 AD I believe. Then again, I could be wrong about the date.

Please, do be a little more intelligent in your posts.

And then you say "Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order?" So know you're using simple logic, eh? Well do YOU really think that there's such a thing as a superbeing with magical powers?

Would it shock you if I said yes? Isn't that what this debate is about? I understand you were using that as an example-- as poor as it is-- but when you have undeniable proof that the Bible wasn't just written off the top of someone's head, then you kinda think a little bit differantly.

The origional manuscripts are still around-- for the most part anyway-- and I welcome you to take a gander at them and tell me that all of the books of the Bible were written by some village idiot who wanted to keep his friends in line.

Just use logic. You can't prove there's god. You can't prove there's ever been something/someone that is at all similar to god. You can't prove there's a heaven or hell. You can't prove there ever was a garden of eden or whatever. You can't find me anyone that can prove that. So using very simple logic, I've come to the conclusion god just isn't real.

As I said before-- which you seemingly overlooked in your haste to respond-- I don't intend on proving it. I don't intend on giving you all the answers. I guess I should make it clear that "IIII Dooooon't haaaaave alllll theeeeee aaaaansweeeers." And neither do you.

Again, using the same logic, you can't prove that he doesn't exist so I come to the conclusion that he is real.


Chris-- I'm getting the feeling that I may have created some animosity between our two selves. This is a good thing.


Joeiss-- if you get the chance, IM me later and we'll talk about some ofyour questions. My AIM handle is LeonMagnolis, and MSN is LeonMagnolis@hotmail.com . I can't give you all the answers, but I'll do what I can to help you reach them yourself.



Now keep the dubloons coming. I want to start a gambling club here and I'm gonna need at least a thousand to get that up and running.



Euch, I just saw the other posts and I'll get back to them tomorrow. I need my beauty sleep-- and you;d aggree too if you took a look at my ugly mug.

*reads posts*

Not one thing in that glob of words proved a thing. All you did was insult Chris with sarcasim. Good job. I really believe all your ideas now. Wait- what were they? Oh, that's right: nothing.

[BigJustinW]

Originally posted by Danchastu
*reads posts*

Not one thing in that glob of words proved a thing. All you did was insult Chris with sarcasim. Good job. I really believe all your ideas now. Wait- what were they? Oh, that's right: nothing.

Ugh, nobody is gonna prove anything to anybody in this thread.

look at Pickachu's older posts, they proved nothing... now Leon is taking the same defensive stance as Pika.... and you make a sarcastic post about it?

Explain.

As for Pika....

If Scientists discover somthing that gives conclusive evidence that God does exist, and he did make this planet, and half of the scientist are still skeptical about it, which stance would you take?

Yeah...this topic is kinda pointless. No one's all of a sudden going to be like "How could I be so stupid. Now I believe there is/isn't a god." Everyone expressed their beliefs and now people are getting angry. I suggest closing the topic.