Don't believe in God? Why not? - Page 4

DeathsHand · 02-05-2002, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJustinW

Now give another example of contradiction.

How about what you just said... you can't ask for forgiveness when you commit suicide because you can't ask for forgiveness when you're dead...

but... then how can you ask for forgiveness if you die saaaay... in a car accident? Or some other unexpected way?

And couldn't you just ask for forgiveness BEFORE killing yourself?

Edit: Danchastu replied before me

02-05-2002, 05:07 PM

Damn right I did.

And since no one reads the last topic on the page right before:

Quote:

How about if you kill yourself, doctors bring you back for a few secs and you ask for
forgiveness, and then die?

Or ask for forgiveness for the sin you're about to commit?

If you believe in an afterlife then why no ask there?

How exactly do you ask? Verbally? Mentally?

Is there a questioner that must be filled out? And in 3-4 weeks God will get back to
you on your question but for an answer receive coupons for celestial orange juice?

BigJustinW · 02-05-2002, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeathsHand

That saving yourself from an eternity in hell thing doesn't really have any effect as a reason for a non-believer to read the bible or whatever... Because if they don't believe it, they probably don't believe about the eternity of hell thing...

Ok... lets's think logically...

Xantar has never completly ruled out God as an answer, right?

At the same time, he refuses to read and understand the Bible.

IF there were a god, and you didn't even give it a chance on earth, how pissed would you be at yourself in hell?

think about it, why not give it a chance? If you don't believe in anything, and you are looking for an answer before you die (obviously). Why not read a source on what is claimed to happen after you die?

It would be different if you guys gave it a chance.

Death isn't a joke, and I think all people should look for an answer before they die. You guys seem to be taking no action, and saying you don't believe in god because it can't be proven by some scientist who would rather prove it wrong that correct.

It's your life... you can waiste it if you want, but I suggest you look for a direction.

DeathsHand · 02-05-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJustinW

It's your life... you can waiste it if you want, but I suggest you look for a direction.

Or maybe I would die and find out there's no afterlife (although I don't know how that would happen when I would be dead'n'gone) and it turns out that I wasted my life (or at least some of it) reading the bible, going to church, etc etc?

02-05-2002, 05:10 PM

I would still like an answer to my three-legged gerbil question. Humans are the worst creatures on this planet so why do they live after they die and other animals don't?

Xantar · 02-05-2002, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJustinW
think about it, why not give it a chance? If you don't believe in anything, and you are looking for an answer before you die (obviously). Why not read a source on what is claimed to happen after you die?

Well, if that's what you want me to do, I've already done it. I read a biology book which explained to me what can be proven to happen to me (and other living things) after death.

The body decomposes, and the living being ceases to exist. Since there is no proof that people actually exist after death, this is a perfectly acceptable explanation to me.

BigJustinW · 02-05-2002, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Danchastu
How about if you kill yourself, doctors bring you back for a few secs and you ask for
forgiveness, and then die?

Lemme think, if you killed yourself, it's impossible for you to come back to life. If you attempted to kill yourself, and you don't die, and you (sincerely) ask for forgiveness for the attempt, then you die, you are forgiven.

If you eat too many Tacos you die and it's your own fault, right? But if your intent wasn't yo kill yourself, you didn't kill yourself.

Quote:

Or ask for forgiveness for the sin you're about to commit?

You can only ask after... if you ask before God will be more pissed at you because you could have prevented it.

And if you think about asking for forgiveness before you even sin, you don't have a very good relationship with god.

Quote:

If you believe in an afterlife then why no ask there?

If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn.

Quote:

How exactly do you ask? Verbally? Mentally?

Is there a questioner that must be filled out? And in 3-4 weeks God will get back to you on your question but instead of an answer receive coupons for celestial orange juice?

You just ask. You don't have to have a voice to ask for anything.

DeathsHand · 02-05-2002, 05:19 PM

"it's impossible for you to come back to life"

Ummm... havn't there been cases when someone was medically dead (or whatever the hell j00 call it), and was revived shortly after?

02-05-2002, 05:22 PM

You eletricute yourself in an attempt to try to kill yourself stopping your heart making you legally dead. You can be brought back using a defliblulator.

gekko · 02-05-2002, 05:22 PM

Why not give it a chance? Why not waste your time doing something you don't believe will result in anything?

Why don't you wake up early every Saturday, go into your back yard, hold a block of cheddar above your head and walk in a circle for an hour and a half? you don't know if it'll get you into heaven, but it could, therefore you should do it right?

sdtPikachu · 02-05-2002, 05:23 PM

Right... well you knew I'd appear sooner or later, right?

I can't really add much from my point of view that Xantar hasn't said already, and far more eloquently than I could put it... but here goes anyway.

[Start one of no doubt several posts]

In chronological order (aand without quotes, cos I'm lazy):

"i'd like to know what those questions are, thats all"

As far as believeing in god, I can no longer find any questions to ask. To me, the evidence I have seen that made me make up my mind leaves little room for doubt.
True, I don't know where the universe came from. But that's about all I can't see for myself; everything else has been more than adequately explained to me by scientific analysis.

"oh bloody hell. not this again"

Can't blame you for feeling offended; it's a very personal topic, and yes emotions can get a bit heated and people may get annoyed at everyone's apparently "stupid" (from their perspective) POV. Basically, if you can't handle the debate, then please don't participate for all our sakes.

"It can be answered both ways..."

True it can be answered both ways. But this is contrary to the scientific method. Scientific method assumes nothing (especially existence of a god). If you can't find an explanation for something, you keep looking. You don't just say "damn, I can't figure this out, must be gods doing". Hence there is point in arguing; the two are incongruent belief systems.

"as for the dinosaurs, their are references in the bible"

Yes, but they are said to be co-existing or just pre-dating humans. Unless you want to argue with a geologist how 60 million years worth of rock got in between them and not one human remain found with the dinosaurs (and don't even think of bringing up that lame arsed "proof" that was the supposed human foortprints found with a dinosaur.
And whilst we're on the subject: as I read them, most of the references in the bible could apply to any number of things. Here's a question: have you ever read a horoscope and thought "wow, that really DOES apply to me?" I find it odd that instead of explicitly describing scaly reptiles ten feet tall who tore people limb from limb it only makes a few exceedingly vague inferences that anyone could dig up if they were eager enough to find them.

"why believe in him....if you don't, when you physically die, you will be seperated from god for eternity"

One of the more offensive posts I've read on the subject. If you read between the lines you are saying that by me not believing in a god I am inferior to you because you are right and I am wrong. And yet this is backed up only by opinion. You have no scientific proof god exists, and you should refrain from thinking you do. Your statement was phrased as a fact. This implies you know something I don't (presumably you do have proof). Either phrase a more polite way of saying this (such as by adding an "IMO") or refrain from saying it at all. As Xantar says, you're not helping things.

"What is the "scientific method"?"

In short - what you can see.
In detail - an explanation similar to Xantars;
1. You take a piece of the universe, and you look at it.
2. You wonder how it was created (scientifically)
3. You form a hypothesis resulting from these observations and thoughts.
4. You test this hypothesis by experiment on other objects to see if it stays true
5. If the hypothesis does not fit with observable results, you change your hypothesis to fit what can be seen.
6. Repeat 4
7. Repeat 5
8. When there is no reasonable discrepancy between what you think is happening (the hypothesis) and what you know is happening (the experiment), your hypothesis has been justified and you are entitled to call it a theory. This theory may indeed be modified later by further theories (best example is of gravity; works in everyday cases, but fails when the numbers get very small or very big, which is where the much newer quantum mechanics fits in; it explains the parts of physical laws that gravity could not.

"Have you went to church and prayed the "correct" way?"

Depends what you mean by the "correct" way. Whose church do I go to? Hindu? Islam? Christian? Pagan? Buddhist? Catholic? Baptist? Protestant? CoE? Scientology? Each of these churches has it's own way of worshipping, to no god, a god, or gods. Which is the correct way? If you believe the "correct"way is in the christian fashion, then: a) yes I have. I was educated under the grossly unfair British system where christianity is forced on people, and until I was 12 I believed it; and b) I am astounded by your arrogance in denouncing every single other belief system in the world as "incorrect". Personally I think people deserve some respect for their beliefs, and this comment is more of an insult.

"Have you read and comprehended most/all of the bible?"

I have read the bible. It's what convinced me to become an atheist. When you say understood it...? Well surely everyione has their own way of understanding anything. When you "understand" it, you see god. When I "understand" it, I see a method of population control. Again, you make presumptions that you are right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

"there's no way to prove it WRONG"

Technically speaking, no there is no way to prove there isn't a god simply because of the mercurial nature of gods themselves. But there are several large swathes of religious texts and edicts which have been shown scientifically to be wrong. Like the earth being 6000 years old for instance. I simply prefer to put my faith ni things that I can see, not things which MIGHT be true just because no-ones come up with a decent explanation yet.

"cuz like all the religious people are like "I believe this I believe that" and the proof is only what they believe, so it's not really proof, but then someone says "Yeah, well I believe he doesn't exist" and the religious people are like "Do you have any PROOF that he doesn't exist?" and I'm like "Do you have any PROOF that he does exist?""

Many a true word is spoken in jest, DsH...! It is true that many religious people hold their own thought to be sacrosanct and any deviation from this is heresy and would therefore require an immense amount of evidence for them to even begin to challenge their beliefs. And yes, when you say "I do not believe in god because..." many see it as a personal attack on their beliefs, hance they get offended. I wish everyone would just lighten up and treat everyone like a human. If anyone gets offended by my remarks, maybe you should take a look at your own and try to see them from the point of a non-believer viewpoint, as I am struggling to do from yours.

"Ugh... if you haven't experimented with somthing yourself, how can you prove somthing?"

You are now confusing science with belief. Even if Xantar did believe in god and all that, it still wouldn't prove that god existed. To say that the only reason he has that god doesn't exist is that he hasn't prayed ("correctly" presumably) is very ignorant. What if he prayed to the pagan gods? Would that prove that they exist?
Xantar has formed his beliefs about the existence or non-existence of gods through his own thoughts and observations: he has proved it to himself. However, believing in god does not magically create scientific proofs for everything out of thin air. I could say to you: if you've not experimenyted with not believing in god, how can you prove that he does exist? I could also say "prove invisible pink unicorns totally undetectable to any instrument don't exist" and you would be in the same situation. It is outside of scientific analysis.

"You have a hypotesis.... you've made predictions, but you haven't tested them. 2 out of 4 steps."

A hypothesis for what? His beliefs? His beliefs are based (as far as I can tell) on observable facts (that you or I or anyone could go and see for oursleves) with the minimum amount of spirtiual muddlement. How can he test his beliefs? Well from what I know of him, he already has. he has looked at the evidence laid before him, and concluded that science is a better yardstick than faith. What is your problem with this?

"I believe in God, I personally cannot see how somebody cannot."

Well, at least you acknowledge that it's your own personal belief. As far as how I can't believe in god? For me it is easy. Believing in god makes you happy because you see that when you die if you are good to him you will spend eternity in paradise whilst infidels like myself will suffer endless torment. But I have no need of a god to make me feel happy; I do not need an afterlife, this one is enough for me. Sure it'd be nice to think I'd live forever, but I can't swallow that one. I cannot see it ever happening, and I have never seen any evidence of it happening. Hence it would be rather presumptuous of me to say that it existed. So I derive my happiness from knowing that I am going to do my utmost to make my life as enjoyable as possible. That is where I derive my happiness; from the contentment of myself, my family and my friends. Everyone has different things that make them happy; for you it is god. Everyone has a different method.

"Too many questions, and the only way we can find answers is by dying."
True enough.

"I believe in Jesus Christ"
So do I if you leave out the christ bit

" And if Christians believe that other Religions are wrong, and other religions believe that Christianity is wrong, then who is right?"
One of the things that led me to question my beliefs. As I see it, none are right and none are wrong; they are all equally valid. What got to me was the way people kill each other over it, each with the belief that "god was on their side", like the Taliban do. IMO, there is no way an omnipotent benevolent god would allow this; here follows one of my favourite quotes:

[next post...]

BigJustinW · 02-05-2002, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DeathsHand

Or maybe I would die and find out there's no afterlife (although I don't know how that would happen when I would be dead'n'gone) and it turns out that I wasted my life (or at least some of it) reading the bible, going to church, etc etc?

If you die and there is no afterlife, what difference would it have made what you did in your life?

If you die and there is an afterlife, what you do in your life makes a HUGE difference... right?

the way I see it, on one hand, you are banking on a chance that all things turn out the same, and on the other hand, you are saving yourself from somthing.

Have you heard of life insurance??? You pay it in case somthing happens... if nothing happens, there wasn't a point to paying it, if everything happens, you were smart for paying for it.

So why not pay it?

What you are saying is, what if nothing happens? What I'm saying is "What if somthing does?"

To me, you have nothing to lose by reading a book.

sdtPikachu · 02-05-2002, 05:27 PM

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
--Epicurus

Even if I could believe in a god, the atrocities that he lets humans commit would lead me to believe he was not worth worshipping.

"Dunandan, there is no way in explaining anything that counters what people think. If someone thinks a tree cant just magicly appear and you say "Well I think God can make a measly tree," you still havent answred, because In their opinion god dose not exist.

Plus it dosnt help to state your opinion trying to answer either becase thats IYO."

Precisely. It all comes down to what you believe. And what right do you have to assert that your opinion is more valid than someone elses? This is arrogant, ignorant and derogatory.

"Is there really something out there that can only be explained by God's existence? I believe there is not."

An answer to your question? That's what I believe too. AFAICS, there is nothing I have ever seen in my 21 years that shows beyond reasonable doubt that there is an all-powerful being who can control or create at whim. End of story.

"explain why you find it hard to believe that god exists"

Not just hard... all but impossible for me I'm afraid. To make me believe in god would mean I would have to forget almost everything I've learned over (at least) the past 8 years. As far as explanations go, I think I have done that more than enough.

"Pyramids, Easter Island, etc etc hasn't been proven by scientists (i don't think) but the pyramids and heads are there, and I don't think there is a believable explanation available."

Actually there is. They were made by humans. Scaled experiments have shown that the pyramids can be built using huge labour forces and the advanced enginerring techniques they possessed. Experiments also show that the Easter Island heads are not only possibly made by humans, but actually show evidence of it. Pollen analysis shows that the inhabitants of Easter Island decimated their trees in order to make and manouvre these statues. There are even half-carved out hunks of rock stuck in the quarries.

"I just think that so much money, time and effort has been put into God, that there must be something out there that can do this."

? Explain please.

"I also have had some freaky Deja Vu's that I can tell you are Deja Vu's and not made up by my brain without knowing conciously"

Prove it. I don't doubt that you've had déja vu's (I have too) but you have no way of knowing if they are your head playing tricks on you or not. Memory is not the most reliable of records. Seems quite easy to me to see how your brain can just make you think you've seen/done/felt something before.

"I'm asking you for a logical reason for NOT thinking he exists."

He's already given it about three times. How many times will he have to say it? HE DOES NOT SEE ANY LOGICAL REASON TO BELIEVE IN A GOD and therefore doesn't see why he should.

"Also, even if you don't feel he exists, why not read deeper into it?"

So maybe Xantar hasn't. So what? He's explained it satisfactorily to himself. To turn the tables again, I wonder if you have studied the thinking behind atheism and agnosticism in depth? To suggest Xantar study your beliefs whilst you show such a flagrant disrespect of his (although you may not see it, as it is from your point of view only) is rude.

"It also seems that you have no path anyway, and you are not even trying to search for one."

Presumably, like me, because he doesn't feel that he has to.

"Right now, NOTHING pertaining creation can be explained, period."

We can prove that the earth is a fair bit older than 6000 years, and that the universe is expanding and that their are background traces of an explosion in the form of high energy microwave radiation at the edge of the universe. Just because not every aspect of how the universe formed can be scientifically explained doean't mean that there is no scientific explanation.

"...is what make the Bible the easiest thing to believe."

You may say that a drunken man is more happy than a sober one. But it doesn't make the drunken man any better. I agree, the bible is by far the easiest thing to believe. I just don't believe it.

"Examine the very thing you are, a Human, there isn't an explination that makes sense, is there?"

Yes

"...but for you what makes the most sense... and why does that make more scientific sense to you?"

Science, plain and simple. It's what I can see - and that makes more sense to me than someone telling me that the world is governed by an existential deity with total control over us. Why does science make more scientific sense to me? Isn't this a bit if a silly question?

"When a scientist create a new creature, not an evolved form of somthing, but an all around new creature, It will still be hard for me to believe that liquids came together on eath and created somthing as advanced as us."

How are we meant to "create" a new creature? By recombining DNA that already exists. This is what happened with life overall. We just don't know enough about DNA in order to do this yet.

"What makes you not believe in god."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGH!
The way that (to me) there is not one iota of evidence for the existence of a god, whereas science produces a plethora of explanations for virtually every known natural process as well as hundreds of unnatural ones.

"It isn't that hard to understand..."

Thank you, PureEvil.

"I don't believe in god. the reasons are a bit personal so I won't go into that. the reason I am posting this is because I wanted to say how controlling and unaccepting catholic/Christian/Lutheran/whatever's are. whenever one of them finds someone who doesn't share their beliefs, they either dislike them, or try to "convert them". I USED to be catholic, with a very religious grandmother, so any defense toward your religion you could passably come up with, I have already heard. I do not try to "convert" religious people to atheism, and I would hope to receive the same respect. anyway, the only religion I could see myself taking up is budism, as it's a religion of love and acceptance, regardless of anyone's belief, and I respect that."

Wow. Respect, man! I too am annoyed with what I see as controlling aspects of religion. I too am also annoyed at attempts to "educate" (read: convert) me to believing in a god (just as I don't presuppose that you shouldn't believe in a god, I don't think people should tell me what to think either), and the way that so many religions look down on (and in many instances kill) those who do not share their opinions.
I too repect buddhism for being probably the only religion I have studied which preaches tolerance and acceptance above all.

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
--Dalai Lama

"OH and Xantar, stop being so god damn perfect. I mean we all understand how you are so godamnned black christingly smart"

Now now Fez, calm down. Xantar is just expressing an opinion as well as he can so he can best explain his beliefs to others.

"A logical reason for not believing in God? I don't think there is any such reason any more there is a logical reason for believing in God."

Precisely.

"Here's a surprise for you: atheism has a little bit of faith too."

Yup, it certainly does. Like he says, we just place it in different things to you.

"My belief has never failed me, so why should I stop believeing?"

My belief has never failed me either.

"So once again, what personal experiences and/or things you know make you believe that God doesn't exist?"

For the last freaking time... A TOTAL LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE PERTAINING TO HIS EXISTENCE.

"I can experiment as much as I want... through prayer... (of course you won't accept this answer)"

So you have just admitted that you are closed minded and are only prepared to see what your prayer leads you to see. Am I correct, or do I misinterpret?

"They just knew somthing, but they didn't want to find an explination for it."

Wrong. They just accepted that things fall and forgot about it. They didn't care how it worked.

"Religion is a form of attempting to find an explination for everything."

And, in my opinion, failing dismally as far as logical thought goes.

"Do you know what Hell is?"

I imagine Xantar does know what hell is, in your sense of it anyway. But as far as I'm concerned I'm not going there, and again I think it arrogant and rude of you to tell him that he is. I don't believe it exists, so why should it worry me?

"What to lose by reading the Bible: A little time
What to gain: Saving yourself from an eternity in Hell"

So the minute he reads it he'll be so overwhelend he'll eventaully see the "real truth"?

I've read it, I've tried it and I don't believe it, period.

As long as every question is answered by the word "God," scientific inquiry is simply impossible.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Gods" (1872)

gekko · 02-05-2002, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJustinW
If you eat too many Tacos you die and it's your own fault, right? But if your intent wasn't yo kill yourself, you didn't kill yourself.

Well your intent when you commit suicide is rarely to kill yourself. It's to get out of the ****ty life you have. To be free from your problems, to find a better life. It's not exactly to kill yourself, it's to find happiness. And don't we all eat tacos to find happiness?

Quote:

If you are baptized, you get the chance, if not, you burn.

I love how Christians think they are perfect, and everyone else is going to hell. What happened to a loving god who loved everyone? You saying all Hindu, Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, Confuciousists, and all the people who never knew of religion will burn in hell. You can tell they made this crap up during a time when everyone thought they were the supreme being.

Quote:

You can only ask after... if you ask before God will be more pissed at you because you could have prevented it.

And you couldn't prevent eating tacos?

gekko · 02-05-2002, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJustinW
If you die and there is no afterlife, what difference would it have made what you did in your life?

If you die and there is an afterlife, what you do in your life makes a HUGE difference... right?

the way I see it, on one hand, you are banking on a chance that all things turn out the same, and on the other hand, you are saving yourself from somthing.

Have you heard of life insurance??? You pay it in case somthing happens... if nothing happens, there wasn't a point to paying it, if everything happens, you were smart for paying for it.

So why not pay it?

What you are saying is, what if nothing happens? What I'm saying is "What if somthing does?"

To me, you have nothing to lose by reading a book.

Life insurance is not for you personally. It's for your family after you die. Have you seen the nice little catalog they got when you die? Caskets, vaults, funeral service, tomb stones, cemetary space, getting death certificates, and not to mention the loss of that person's income. Everyone will die, so you know you will need it. It's not for you, it's for your family. And if you've ever seen the price it costs when someone died, you would want your family to have it if you died.