Iraq handled like the presidency - with incompetence.

[Neo]

See bleak Iraq

"It's beyond pitiful, it's beyond embarrassing, it's now in the zone of dangerous," said Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Nebraska

Hagel, Committee Chairman Richard Lugar, R-Indiana, and other committee members have long argued -- even before the war -- that administration plans for rebuilding Iraq were inadequate and based on overly optimistic assumptions that Americans would be greeted as liberators. (Biden questions fitness of Iraqi security force)

But the criticism from the panel's top Republicans had an extra sting coming less than seven weeks before the presidential election in which President Bush's handling of the war is a top issue.

"Our committee heard blindly optimistic people from the administration prior to the war and people outside the administration -- what I call the 'dancing in the street crowd,' that we just simply will be greeted with open arms," Lugar said. "The nonsense of all of that is apparent. The lack of planning is apparent."

ouch

With talks of civil war the stability in Iraq is quite poor. We got rid of saddam, I say leave them to their own thing now. They seem to enjoy killing each other anyway.

[TheGame]

Yeah, Iraq is a mess... there isn't much a choice but to back out and let them duke it out with themselves. As long as America is there, the fighting won't end.

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Yeah, Iraq is a mess... there isn't much a choice but to back out and let them duke it out with themselves. As long as America is there, the fighting won't end.

And risk letting the 1,000 american lives lost there be for nothing? No, even though it might not have been the best idea, that doesn't matter. Once you start something, you finish it or it's worthless.

[CamFu]

Now I'm not going to get deep into this. Believe it or not, this isn't one of my favorite topics... go figure huh. But when people say things like this:

Originally Posted by Committee Chairman Richard Lugar

The lack of planning is apparent.

It just shows me that all they do is sit behind a desk and pretend to know everything. I would like to know somebody who could plan for a war? Go ahead, somebody raise their hand and tell me what they would do with every single situation that could araise. Nothing would go wrong because their would be no "lack of planning", we would know what the enemy was doing at all times and we would plan for the counter attack.

This is a new war, we have never fought in a war like this before. ROEs are confusing, Enemy that will not stand up for thier country, IED's improving everyday, Cowards that yeild weapons. There are so many things that is different about this war, how could we possible plan for it.

Originally Posted by TheGame

Yeah, Iraq is a mess... there isn't much a choice but to back out and let them duke it out with themselves. As long as America is there, the fighting won't end.

Agreed, Iraq is a mess. Disagree... there is so much to do over there. And even if Americans do pull out, who is to say the fighting will stop. I used to think that, at first. But that was just me being naive. These people will not stop fighting if Americans pull out. They will just fight among themselves and kill each other. And that is not a good thing.

I will say that I have a very strong dislike towards that country, but does that mean that I hate everybody over there? No. But if America pulls out, what is going to happen to the few good people? They are far out numbered by the evil the runs that country. And by evil, I'm not talking about 1 person. I'm talking about their way of life. And if we pull out now, whats going to happen 10 years down the road? Are we going to have to go back over there and do this again? We should have taken care of this in the 1990's, but we didn't. Now we are, and we have to stick it out to the very end.

Ahhh... I could go on, but I will stop.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by CamFu

I will say that I have a very strong dislike towards that country, but does that mean that I hate everybody over there? No. But if America pulls out, what is going to happen to the few good people? They are far out numbered by the evil the runs that country. And by evil, I'm not talking about 1 person. I'm talking about their way of life. And if we pull out now, whats going to happen 10 years down the road? Are we going to have to go back over there and do this again? We should have taken care of this in the 1990's, but we didn't. Now we are, and we have to stick it out to the very end.

Ahhh... I could go on, but I will stop.

If they are far outnumbered by the evil people than what is it going to take to bring stability to the region? Should we kill the majority of the population then (not that it would be a great loss). None of us really knows what it will take to bring some semblence of order there. I see us having to stay in Iraq for a long long time. Even when we decide it's safe to leave it's just a matter of time before they start killing each other again. The middle east in general is a giant cess pool that the world would be better off without. Every day I pray for a moderately-sized meteorite to impact in the region and wipe them all out.

[thatmariolover]

And we don't necessarily need the American force over there to be any bigger than any other country. We need to get more of the world involved (of course if we do that we're going to have to be careful who comes in).

[CamFu]

Originally Posted by Neo

If they are far outnumbered by the evil people than what is it going to take to bring stability to the region? Should we kill the majority of the population then (not that it would be a great loss). None of us really knows what it will take to bring some semblence of order there. I see us having to stay in Iraq for a long long time. Even when we decide it's safe to leave it's just a matter of time before they start killing each other again. The middle east in general is a giant cess pool that the world would be better off without. Every day I pray for a moderately-sized meteorite to impact in the region and wipe them all out.

Oh how nice that would be to just wipe out that entire country. But of course we can't think like that (even though I have MANY times), they are people too. Uneducated people, but still people. Stability to that country... well, first of all, Americans can't give it too them. They have to earn it. That is one of the problems I see over there. They never want to do anything by themselves, they are always looking for a free hand out. Americans can't give these people freedom, why because they don't know what it's like to fight for it. Any time a Higher Power (and I don't mean God or Ahla) comes to that country, they just latch on took them like a baby does to a nipple. And they cry to get taken care of. Read the history of these people. They have never really stood up for themselves. So for them to get Stability, they have to figure out what they can do for themselves. And one of the biggest things they have to do is get their country an Education. We always here that Education is the greatest power, and I don't know about you guys, but I always just kind of shunned that comment. That was until I met a whole country that had little education. Now I see that is so true. Money isn't power, because somebody smarter then you will come in and take it from you. So the short of the answer is Stability = Education. That is what it's going to take to help that country over there. Have people start to think by themselves.

It's funny. Everytime I talked with somebody with a real college education (ones from different countries... America, Europe, Australia), they always make the comments on how we should just kill off all the prisoners and crimials in Iraq. And how that would make Iraq a better place. And I would always comment, that would leave a small group of people. He would laugh and say, I know. We could start from scratch again.

And of course this still wouldn't sovle the problem. If these people really want their country, they would fight for it. And not from Americans, because we are trying to give it too them, but from the evil dictators that always seem to come into power.

Originally Posted by thatmariolover

... We need to get more of the world involved (of course if we do that we're going to have to be careful who comes in).

Come on now, half of the world hates us for going in there. They think we are doing it for the wrong reasons. Nobody is going to help us, they don't want to help us. The US Armed Forces are the world police, nobody is going to want to help us. Are you going to want to help a cop during a shoot out? Or stop somebody from robbing a back? Most people won't, because it's the police job to take care of that bussiness, it's the same frame of thought with taking care of the world, everybody expects America to do it. And I'm not taking away from the countries that are already down there helping us. But when I was working with the Polish and Thias, they barely left the base, it was the Americans to do the dirty work. Perfect expample, remember Karbala? (sp?) And how ugly it was done there? Well the Polish and Thias were already down there for at least a good year before we got there and it was nasty down there. Why? Because they didn't want to do the dirty work, they waited until the Americans to come to clean up that city.

It was horrible, I remember this one time that two of the Polish soliders got killed, us Americans where blamed for that. The Polish were really pissed at us for a while and we were living with them. Now that was hard.

Sorry about the post being so long guys.

[GT News]

Originally Posted by CamFu

Oh how nice that would be to just wipe out that entire country. But of course we can't think like that (even though I have MANY times), they are people too. Uneducated people, but still people. Stability to that country... well, first of all, Americans can't give it too them. They have to earn it. That is one of the problems I see over there. They never want to do anything by themselves, they are always looking for a free hand out. Americans can't give these people freedom, why because they don't know what it's like to fight for it. Any time a Higher Power (and I don't mean God or Ahla) comes to that country, they just latch on took them like a baby does to a nipple. And they cry to get taken care of. Read the history of these people. They have never really stood up for themselves. So for them to get Stability, they have to figure out what they can do for themselves. And one of the biggest things they have to do is get their country an Education. We always here that Education is the greatest power, and I don't know about you guys, but I always just kind of shunned that comment. That was until I met a whole country that had little education. Now I see that is so true. Money isn't power, because somebody smarter then you will come in and take it from you. So the short of the answer is Stability = Education. That is what it's going to take to help that country over there. Have people start to think by themselves.

It's funny. Everytime I talked with somebody with a real college education (ones from different countries... America, Europe, Australia), they always make the comments on how we should just kill off all the prisoners and crimials in Iraq. And how that would make Iraq a better place. And I would always comment, that would leave a small group of people. He would laugh and say, I know. We could start from scratch again.

And of course this still wouldn't sovle the problem. If these people really want their country, they would fight for it. And not from Americans, because we are trying to give it too them, but from the evil dictators that always seem to come into power.

Come on now, half of the world hates us for going in there. They think we are doing it for the wrong reasons. Nobody is going to help us, they don't want to help us. The US Armed Forces are the world police, nobody is going to want to help us. Are you going to want to help a cop during a shoot out? Or stop somebody from robbing a back? Most people won't, because it's the police job to take care of that bussiness, it's the same frame of thought with taking care of the world, everybody expects America to do it. And I'm not taking away from the countries that are already down there helping us. But when I was working with the Polish and Thias, they barely left the base, it was the Americans to do the dirty work. Perfect expample, remember Karbala? (sp?) And how ugly it was done there? Well the Polish and Thias were already down there for at least a good year before we got there and it was nasty down there. Why? Because they didn't want to do the dirty work, they waited until the Americans to come to clean up that city.

It was horrible, I remember this one time that two of the Polish soliders got killed, us Americans where blamed for that. The Polish were really pissed at us for a while and we were living with them. Now that was hard.

Sorry about the post being so long guys.

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

[CamFu]

Originally Posted by CamFuBot

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

Don't worry about it bud, it was talking about how education is a good thing... didn't think you would be paying attention.

[Crash]

Originally Posted by CamFu

Don't worry about it bud, it was talking about how education is a good thing... didn't think you would be paying attention.

cam, you're great

[Jonbo298]

Is this a first? Camfubot replying to a past by his "Dad"

[jeepnut]

It sure is cute isn't it?

[Dark Samurai]

CamFu's finally paying attention to CamFuBot....

[GiMpY-wAnNaBe]

ccan't you just feel the love?

[TheGame]

I don't think the fighting will stop if we leave, the difference is they will be killing themselves instead of us killing them and them killing us (AND them still killing themselves )

But I see your point, we gotta finish what we started. Its a crappy situation to be in sadly.

-EDIT-

One question I have though... when will it be safe to pull out? What if they don't stop fighting?