Dreams

[Vampyr]

First of all, I just want to thank Bond, this is the best forum ever created.

Another, this is a philosophy post, not religon. *Looks at the title of the forum, yeah, it says philosophy*

Here are my thoughts on dreams:

Have you ever dreamed? Of course you have, everyone dreams, but do you remember all of your dreams? No, no one does. These facts, along with hundreds of others have made dreams one of the most thought provoking and enigmatic things of all time. We as humans have questioned dreams all our life. Do they mean anything? Do they foretell the future, past, or only things that are happening now? Or, we could take a different approach, perhaps dreams are nothing more than images sent to our brain by our nerves firing off in our head. Perhaps they are nothing more than wild thoughts, maybe they don't mean anything. Maybe this time of rapid eye movement (REM)is nothing but pure madness. All those images we see flying through our heads at blazing speeds, trying to connect one to another, trying to make sense of the chaos. Are we mad to try to figure them out? But, if they don't mean anything, then do we truly spend 1/3 of our lives lying in a bed, wasting away?


Are you dreaming right now? No? Prove it. Pinch yourself, did it hurt? Maybe you only thought it hurt. If you can't be 100% for sure if this is a dream or not, then how do you know this world your living in right now is any more real than that fantasy world you were in last night. Or was it last night? Maybe it was only a few minutes ago. Maybe every letter you see on this page is your head, everything you read is nothing but your crazy ideas, if they are your ideas, go to www.writing.com and type them up, they're very interesting. If you can't really prove to me that your not dreaming, then how can dreams be meaningless? Are they not worth the same as your awake life, if you can't even tell them apart?

So far, I've mentioned things you've probably heard before, things you either read or saw on TV or discussed before with your family. But now, Im about to take a huge leap from accepted details to things most scientist might consider fantasy, fiction. Dreams have interested me for a very long time, and Ive had a lot of time to think about them, these are my thoughts.

What if every dream was real? Even your most intimate and deranged thoughts, what if your dreams of the very far reaches of the cosmos was actually true? What if I told you they are? This is my theory, that your dreams are actually, in a strange way, true, real. Before you call the nearest insane asylum, let me try to prove my point.

If you know anything about psychology, anything about the brain, you may know this: Everything in your brain is physical. Your brain most certainly has mass, and each part of your brain accomplishes a different task. Theres a part that holds memories, a part that controls emotions, such as anger. My point is, that all things are physical, they can be touched with your hands, they take up space. Now lets travel down to a more molecular scale. There are chemicals in your brain, chemicals that control and regulate all your thoughts. For example, if you have OCD, there is a certain chemical in your brain that your lacking. This is true for all functions. Anything your brain does, there is something physical there that does it. Whether it be chemicals, electric waves, even down to the tiniest cell. Nothing in your brain is without substance, there is nothing there that consist of empty space. You can remember things because there is some physical substance in your brain that you can call upon. Your brain is exactly like a computer. Everything in a computer is physical in some way, it has to be to exist. So what happens when your brain makes a new "file?" It becomes real. Every time you think of something new, it gets added to your brain.

My point is that when you dream, even your most wild and fantastic dream gets added to your brain. For example, you dream one night that you are a holy paladin, and you set out on a marvelous quest, and you slay a deadly dragon, and save the princess. When you dream this, the chemicals in your brain make this true. There is some substance in your brain containing all these dreams that youve ever dreamed before. Its true, their there, their real. You may be thinking at this point Im some sort of lunatic that just happens to have a vocabulary, but think, why can't it be true? Are you willing to believe that humans have a soul, and that we are above every animal, but you can't believe that every time your dream something it becomes real? What if your some galactic beings dream. Can't that be true? Can't there be more than one universe? An infinity of infinities of infinities universes? Every dream you have creates some sort of real, physical, substance, and can't all those physical substances be true? So if we went inside your head, and removed whatever substance held the memory of the dragon dream, and set it free, would a real dragon actually be born from it? Possibly. So if everything you dream takes on life, then cant it also dream, and its dreams take on life? Creating an infinite magnitude of worlds? Like I said, and infinity of infinities of infinities. Every dream can be true, its not just a saying.

[Ginkasa]

I'm confused... In the religion thread, you seemed to be an avid Christian, professing your beliefs freely and trying to convert non-Christians...

Great.

But...What is this? maybe I read it wrong.. But you seem to be saying that its possible that when a person dreams, their dream becomes real. As in, a whole new universe.

And that we may actually be merely the dream form some other person...

This goes against everything Christian... Are you saying that we're just God's dream? That God is just some average schmoe is some other universe who dreamt this world one night and suddenly appeared?

That we may be gods of our own worlds unknowingly?

Which is it? Do you believe in God or this dream stuff?


*shrugs and walks away*

[Vampyr]

Fiction my friend. Something to day dream about and imagine was real. Besides, its cool to think its possible, and Im planning on writing a fantasy story with that essay as the sole basis of it. Just because Im a Christain doesnt mean I cant fantasize and dream.

[Ginkasa]

Okay. It just seemed that you were saying you did believe in that, which conflicted with you being a Christian. Just making sure you weren't only Christian when it was called for and completely forgot about it when it didn't matter


*shrugs and walks away*

[Jonbo298]

Lately, I have been having many really weird assed dreams. Just this morning, I had like 3 or 4 dreams that made no sense at all.

I remember one dream I was having in which I was in a hospital waiting room (still don't know why I was there) and all of a sudden I thought I heard a phone ringing, so I was looking everywhere for a good minute for it, but couldn't find it. Then I woke up and my alarm was going off. I've had a few dreams like that where the "outside world" interfered with mine.

Another one I remember for some reason was that Godzilla was chasing me. I kept trying to hide, but it wasn't working, then I woke up and my heart was racing. Interesting.

So maybe in an alternate universe, Godzilla is waiting for me.....

[GameMaster]

I would like to think that some dreams are real and some realities are dreams.

However, I wouldn't want to believe that everything is the result of someone else's inner creation and imaginings.

I want there to be a stable real reality because if there wasn't one then I have nothing to build a foundation on. It would make me feel insecure and I would just go crazy and do whatever I want because I would think that nothing is really real and then I'd probably get into big trouble.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Ginkasa

Okay. It just seemed that you were saying you did believe in that, which conflicted with you being a Christian. Just making sure you weren't only Christian when it was called for and completely forgot about it when it didn't matter

No problem. I guess Im a pretty persuasive guy. *becomes a representative*

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by GameMaster

I want there to be a stable real reality because if there wasn't one then I have nothing to build a foundation on. It would make me feel insecure and I would just go crazy and do whatever I want because I would think that nothing is really real and then I'd probably get into big trouble.

Ok, now Im as confused as Ginkasa was about my original post. In the religon thread you said nothing was real.

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Ok, now Im as confused as Ginkasa was about my original post. In the religon thread you said nothing was real.

He plays all sides.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by jeepnut

He plays all sides.

I find that quote funny and sick on so many levels, but you can all use your imagination.

[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I find that quote funny and sick on so many levels, but you can all use your imagination.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I find that quote funny and sick on so many levels, but you can all use your imagination.

... If you dream it, BAB, it'll come true.


Err, *prepares for a double post in response to Vampyr's original topic*

[Rndm_Perfection]

Pardon me in advance for using the ol' "Quote and Response" writing technique. But, only Vampyr has to read it all, 'cause he's the bastard who wrote so much in the first place ¦¬Þ

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Have you ever dreamed? Of course you have, everyone dreams, but do you remember all of your dreams? No, no one does. These facts, along with hundreds of others have made dreams one of the most thought provoking and enigmatic things of all time. We as humans have questioned dreams all our life. Do they mean anything? Do they foretell the future, past, or only things that are happening now? Or, we could take a different approach, perhaps dreams are nothing more than images sent to our brain by our nerves firing off in our head. Perhaps they are nothing more than wild thoughts, maybe they don't mean anything. Maybe this time of rapid eye movement (REM)is nothing but pure madness. All those images we see flying through our heads at blazing speeds, trying to connect one to another, trying to make sense of the chaos. Are we mad to try to figure them out? But, if they don't mean anything, then do we truly spend 1/3 of our lives lying in a bed, wasting away?

Nice "little" intro you got going there, I suppose. But to answer your questions... Yes, I've dreamed; no I don't remember them all; my dreams don’t mean anything (more on that later); they don’t foresee the future or other events that I’m unrelated to; we’re not mad to attempt figuring out our dreams; and it’s not a waste to spend 1/3 of our lives in bed “wasting away”. ... Whew

The dreams that I usually remember are ones that are interrupted. For instance, a few nights ago I had a dream about a classmate (though she was imaginary) who had her eye on me very often (which is a good thing). Yes, yes… all a dream. I quite possibly have had similar dreams on numerous occasions... but all were “deleted” after being produced, because they were very similar to the school plague known as “busy work”. The reason why I remember my dream from a couple nights ago is that I fell asleep late, which put me in a deep sleep. And, come time I needed to wake to go to school, I kept sleeping because my body was in mid-dream. I eventually broke from the dream and woke up late... but I doubt I would have remembered it, had I not been “half-awoken”.

I believe that dreams don’t mean anything. That is, it’s not a prospect of things to come, for nobody is psychic. According to sciences, and what you had tried passing off in a paragraph to come... psychic powers are impossible, because your mind only imprints prior knowledge, and what it concludes from that knowledge through its own little workings (the whole “I’m a little molecule of knowledge” bit). Your mind can guess what is probable to happen from these cells, but it can’t be accurate unless it knew even more knowledge, and at that point it wouldn’t be psychic.

Err, yeah... that was a bit complicated, and I’m not yet done. What I say is that dreams are a way your body keeps your mind active when you’re not seeing, hearing, or feeling anything... when all of your senses (and no, the sixth sense is not included) are cut off from the real world. The thoughts that your mind produces are ones that I suppose I’d call are “true thoughts”... thoughts that are uninfluenced by your current surroundings. Your body tries to exercise its actions by playing out some scenarios that you’d be able to recognize. That is why you dream in your own language and only see things that you could think up, or have already naturally seen. If something “comes to you in a dream”, you’ve probably thought of it before, but just didn’t consciously realize it.

I believe it’s not mad to examine your dreams, for you can learn much about yourself (and nothing else!) from your dreams. As I said, I believe they are true thoughts, unfiltered (so to speak) by your surroundings. So, if you never realized you liked something, or were afraid of something, your body will reinforce your emotional feelings. So, maybe hypnotists work, if that’s somehow related ¦¬Þ

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Are you dreaming right now? No? Prove it. Pinch yourself, did it hurt? Maybe you only thought it hurt. If you can't be 100% for sure if this is a dream or not, then how do you know this world your living in right now is any more real than that fantasy world you were in last night. Or was it last night? Maybe it was only a few minutes ago. Maybe every letter you see on this page is your head, everything you read is nothing but your crazy ideas, if they are your ideas, go to www.writing.com and type them up, they're very interesting. If you can't really prove to me that your not dreaming, then how can dreams be meaningless? Are they not worth the same as your awake life, if you can't even tell them apart?

I’m not dreaming right now. Dreaming, I believe, has a definition that does not allow active memory. In what I would call dreams, I see myself in third person! I can watch myself move around as though I was playing myself as a game... and I’m sure many others can do the same. Also in dreams, I cannot remember events from previous days. If you want me to prove I’m not dreaming, I’ll have to ask you... do you feel pain? If so, why don’t I already know it? Your response may, by your reasoning, be produced by my “dream”, but you - knowing that I did ask you, and am thinking about the same oddity - must realize that we cannot be possibly “dual dreaming”. That is, either you or I am dreaming. If you are dreaming this, I am not. And if that is true, I am not dreaming this, proven. But on a side note, I know this is not a dream based on previous dreaming experiences, and I do not feel like further proving a point for philosophy’s sake.

Oh yeah, and I can tell my dream life apart from my non-dream life. Unfortunately, it is only after I wake up. Until then I could be using the “attack command” all I want, and investigating dumpsters ‘till morning come, and I won’t realize it’s a dream world. A sort of protection from me waking up mid-dream, I believe. Why do I remember the dream, and why do I remember not being aware of my unconscious state? Because I was awoken in the middle of it… which made me fail to “delete” the memory of it.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

What if every dream was real? Even your most intimate and deranged thoughts, what if your dreams of the very far reaches of the cosmos was actually true? What if I told you they are? This is my theory, that your dreams are actually, in a strange way, true, real. Before you call the nearest insane asylum, let me try to prove my point.

You don’t really believe it though, you just think it would be a good idea for a fan fic, or even an animé (which I’d have to agree, I suppose). But if you really did believe it... I’d say you have a big problem on your hands. That is, believing that “little chemicals in your mind” can produce realities is a bit absurd. Your mind stores (and yes, I’m stopping halfway in my sentence you let you know that this is what I believe) memory so that it can read it later. Your mind can produce the memory, it’s proven by the fact that you remember things that you have previously not remembered (and what’s funny is... you remember what you used to not remember!). All data that your mind takes in is instantly turned into memory so that you don’t forget anything, no matter how small. Because if you forget just anything, you may forget you’re skydiving, or something stupid like that. The mind is always “on” as a safety precaution. Now, you know that your mind can produce data. It produces it every day as a way to remember what you saw. Yet, that’s not the only way your mind can produce data. Like I said before, when dreaming... your mind is staying active. Because there is nothing to base its newly made data on, it “improvises”. Just because your mind exercises, doesn’t mean your mind (which produces data) can therefor manifest worlds. If that were even somehow true, what would happen to the dreams that are “deleted” as I had once mentioned? Would you have created a world and exterminated it... and then forgot it? The theory is broken, that’s what I’m pointing out


Err... and that response was made by reading:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

If you know anything about psychology, anything about the brain, you may know this: Everything in your brain is physical. Your brain most certainly has mass, and each part of your brain accomplishes a different task. Theres a part that holds memories, a part that controls emotions, such as anger. My point is, that all things are physical, they can be touched with your hands, they take up space. Now lets travel down to a more molecular scale. There are chemicals in your brain, chemicals that control and regulate all your thoughts. For example, if you have OCD, there is a certain chemical in your brain that your lacking. This is true for all functions. Anything your brain does, there is something physical there that does it. Whether it be chemicals, electric waves, even down to the tiniest cell. Nothing in your brain is without substance, there is nothing there that consist of empty space. You can remember things because there is some physical substance in your brain that you can call upon. Your brain is exactly like a computer. Everything in a computer is physical in some way, it has to be to exist. So what happens when your brain makes a new "file?" It becomes real. Every time you think of something new, it gets added to your brain.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

My point is that when you dream, even your most wild and fantastic dream gets added to your brain. For example, you dream one night that you are a holy paladin, and you set out on a marvelous quest, and you slay a deadly dragon, and save the princess. When you dream this, the chemicals in your brain make this true. There is some substance in your brain containing all these dreams that youve ever dreamed before. Its true, their there, their real. You may be thinking at this point Im some sort of lunatic that just happens to have a vocabulary, but think, why can't it be true? Are you willing to believe that humans have a soul, and that we are above every animal, but you can't believe that every time your dream something it becomes real? What if your some galactic beings dream. Can't that be true? Can't there be more than one universe? An infinity of infinities of infinities universes? Every dream you have creates some sort of real, physical, substance, and can't all those physical substances be true? So if we went inside your head, and removed whatever substance held the memory of the dragon dream, and set it free, would a real dragon actually be born from it? Possibly. So if everything you dream takes on life, then cant it also dream, and its dreams take on life? Creating an infinite magnitude of worlds? Like I said, and infinity of infinities of infinities. Every dream can be true, its not just a saying.

No, it’s not ¦¬Þ. But, it was also referring to something completely different.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Random

Nice "little" intro you got going there, I suppose. But to answer your questions... Yes, I've dreamed; no I don't remember them all; my dreams don’t mean anything (more on that later); they don’t foresee the future or other events that I’m unrelated to; we’re not mad to attempt figuring out our dreams; and it’s not a waste to spend 1/3 of our lives in bed “wasting away”. ... Whew

My entire point of the essay was to prove that we were not wasting our time sleeping.

The dreams that I usually remember are ones that are interrupted. For instance, a few nights ago I had a dream about a classmate (though she was imaginary) who had her eye on me very often (which is a good thing). Yes, yes… all a dream. I quite possibly have had similar dreams on numerous occasions... but all were “deleted” after being produced, because they were very similar to the school plague known as “busy work”. The reason why I remember my dream from a couple nights ago is that I fell asleep late, which put me in a deep sleep. And, come time I needed to wake to go to school, I kept sleeping because my body was in mid-dream. I eventually broke from the dream and woke up late... but I doubt I would have remembered it, had I not been “half-awoken”.

That is perfectly logical, science has proven that when you wake up in the middle of REM, you are much more likely to remember your dreams.

I’m not dreaming right now. Dreaming, I believe, has a definition that does not allow active memory. In what I would call dreams, I see myself in third person! I can watch myself move around as though I was playing myself as a game... and I’m sure many others can do the same. Also in dreams, I cannot remember events from previous days. If you want me to prove I’m not dreaming, I’ll have to ask you... do you feel pain? If so, why don’t I already know it? Your response may, by your reasoning, be produced by my “dream”, but you - knowing that I did ask you, and am thinking about the same oddity - must realize that we cannot be possibly “dual dreaming”. That is, either you or I am dreaming. If you are dreaming this, I am not. And if that is true, I am not dreaming this, proven. But on a side note, I know this is not a dream based on previous dreaming experiences, and I do not feel like further proving a point for philosophy’s sake.

Oh yeah, and I can tell my dream life apart from my non-dream life. Unfortunately, it is only after I wake up. Until then I could be using the “attack command” all I want, and investigating dumpsters ‘till morning come, and I won’t realize it’s a dream world. A sort of protection from me waking up mid-dream, I believe. Why do I remember the dream, and why do I remember not being aware of my unconscious state? Because I was awoken in the middle of it… which made me fail to “delete” the memory of it.

Absurd. You claim youve never had a dream like this and you cant remember over half of them. How in the world do you know youve never had a dream like this and just forgotten it? You could have dreamed this dream a million times and never remembered it. And there is no way to know whether this is your dream, my dream, or reality.

You don’t really believe it though, you just think it would be a good idea for a fan fic, or even an animé (which I’d have to agree, I suppose). But if you really did believe it... I’d say you have a big problem on your hands. That is, believing that “little chemicals in your mind” can produce realities is a bit absurd. Your mind stores (and yes, I’m stopping halfway in my sentence you let you know that this is what I believe) memory so that it can read it later. Your mind can produce the memory, it’s proven by the fact that you remember things that you have previously not remembered (and what’s funny is... you remember what you used to not remember!). All data that your mind takes in is instantly turned into memory so that you don’t forget anything, no matter how small. Because if you forget just anything, you may forget you’re skydiving, or something stupid like that. The mind is always “on” as a safety precaution. Now, you know that your mind can produce data. It produces it every day as a way to remember what you saw. Yet, that’s not the only way your mind can produce data. Like I said before, when dreaming... your mind is staying active. Because there is nothing to base its newly made data on, it “improvises”. Just because your mind exercises, doesn’t mean your mind (which produces data) can therefor manifest worlds. If that were even somehow true, what would happen to the dreams that are “deleted” as I had once mentioned? Would you have created a world and exterminated it... and then forgot it? The theory is broken, that’s what I’m pointing out

Im not really going to try to defend this. That part of the essay wasnt based on facts, and I dont believe them myself. But you cant completely destroy something. For example, you cant remember someones phone number to save your life. It doesnt mean that it was deleted, because you could remember it in a few hours. If everytime you couldnt remember something it meant it was completly removed, than things would be very different. The brains not as clockwork and physical as your making it out to be. Its pretty chaotic in there.