How "real" is the Internet?

[KillerGremlin]

This thread is an accumulation of a lot of thoughts and ideas I have had recently. Some of these ideas and thoughts have come from news stories I've read/heard, others have come from my ongoing exploration and training in the Psychology field. I'm gonna cut the rambling short and get to the meat of the matter. The meatspin that is. It's spin time.

How "real" is the Internet?

I ask because lately there has been a lot of news stories about online bullying, slander on Facebook (resulting in schools getting involved), and people escalating Internet fights into real life.

For me, the Internet has always been this fantasy land....that is probably why I have always felt very detached from Facebook and eventually deleted it. I've been a part of this "Internet thing" since just near the beginning, or at least back when it wasn't so serious. I remember the AOL days when chatrooms where just a fuck-off place to have a good time. I've been doing message boards since around 7th grade (AGB and this place eventually). I've always kept the Internet as some fantasy world full of media and news and pixels.

Now shit is getting serious though. Between the government coming after people for downloading shit and whatnot it is quite evident that the Internet is serious business. But theft/child porn aside, the rest of the Internet is left for socialization.

So again: How "real" is the Internet?

Evidently, for a lot of people, the Internet is VERY real. Apparently Facebook is serious business. Serious enough to tear rifts into people's social life. Serious enough for schools to get involved.

I mean, am I the only one who reads these stories and goes, "What the fuck?"

Am I so disconnected from reality, so socially isolated (the NEW socially isolated) that I'm not getting it?

I feel like I come from a lost generation that understands what the Internet is...which is just a series of tubes and it is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck! It's a series of tubes!

[Typhoid]

I view the internet as a very real social place.
Especially facebook or various forum-sites, as long as you don't go in with the intention of posting as a persona.

I don't understand how people don't view the internet as being "real", especially when it comes to things like facebook. While you may not be directly conversing with your friends, you're still talking to them in a medium - unless everyone you knew over facebook were somehow people you've never met in real life and have no actual connection with at all.

To me, facebook is as real as writing a letter, texting, or talking on the phone.
The reason I can see fights starting over facebook (and having validity) is because if that same thing was said in any other way - the result would probably have been the same.

If someone was to start a fight over facebook by, let's go with saying something like "Hey man, I had sex with your girlfriend" I'd expect the reaction to that to be the same whether you wrote it in a note, in the dust on someones car, or left them a voicemail.


I think the whole "It's just the internet, nobody is themselves" argument/comments should have been thrown out a decade ago. If you just use the internet to pretend to be someone else, or have no actual social investment in what you're doing - why even do it to begin with.

The internet's evolved far beyond something you use to receieve emails from your aunts and uncles on your birthday, and it's more than something to connect and play games with people in Pakistan.

Maybe some people just can't have any type of emotional investment in something if they can't see someone's face, to which phone conversations must be 'so terribly droll.'

I find the internet highly useful. Without facebook I wouldn't be able to converse frequently with my sister who lives in the UK. Without skype I wouldn't be able to talk to my nephews who live with her. And without facebook once again I wouldn't be able to talk to all the friends who've travelled to the other side of the country for school.

[Teuthida]

I was with you KG until I started using the web for my job. Other than here, most other places I'll use my real name and conduct myself as I would in the real world. Have to act professional. I still don't used Facebook and don't converse with anyone online that I knew first in real life. Then again I'm an anti-social misanthrope so there's that.

I do miss the anonymous days. I'll frequently use different names to comment on podcasts but that's about it.

[magus113]

The thing with sites like Facebook is that you know the people you speak to, so if there's slander, while it's not to someone's face, it honestly might as well be.

I dunno. I think the funniest thing is, is that the Internet is something we created. It's not like it was something that was just there that we made use of. It started with some people sharing data and it just grew and grew to this huge (I guess we could call it) information superhighway that it's been called nowadays.

Anonymity on the internet is very important, but there are things like privacy filters on Facebook for a reason, so you can connect with other people you know, and set boundaries for people you don't.

[KillerGremlin]

Wow.....

Hmmm...

Lemme try this again. I don't believe people should be punished for thought crimes. What I think about, as sick and perverse as it may be, is still just a thought in my head. In many ways I see the Internet as an extension of people's deeper fantasies or thoughts. It is a way to express something, often through the means of blogging or posting on a forum, that would be hard to express in real life.

Take GT for example. For me, GT represents a nifty outlet to throw around conversation about gaming and politics. Obviously I convey a lot of my "real life" mannerisms on these boards. But at the same time, I tone things down a lot in real life; especially when arguing, for example. I mainly do this because the bulk of people I meet in real life simply do not want to have a heated argument like we often have on these forums or like you often see on the Interwebs. Likewise, I see people like Xantar, Prof S, or TheGame as potentially being confrontational in terms of arguing in real life, but I imagine they tone things down as you only argue to the extent that the party they are conversing with wants to argue. This is Social Skills 101. You don't beat a dead horse with friends and family.

But let us take things one step further. Suppose I joke about wanting to blow something up or make a joke about harming someone. At what point does using the Internet as an extension of my personal thought or something I might say in the company of 2 or 3 close friends become a serious threat or something that warrants serious attention?

When does posting a group making fun of a teacher, in the privacy of my Facebook and under the guise of the 1st Amendment warrant intervention from the school system? (current Facebook story, I'll find the link if ya'll want).

Anyway, I have no idea where I'm going with this thread.

[Xantar]

Xantar is not real. Neither is Typhoid, BAB or TheGame. They cannot be real by their very nature. I suppose to a certain extent it depends on your definition of "real," so I'll distinguish a bit between social networking sites where you're expected to use your real name and places like GT where you aren't. Here on GameTavern, you are going to act differently than you do in real life. The fact that you are using a pseudonym, that you are interacting by typing on a keyboard instead of speaking out loud and gesturing, that you are interacting with photons coming off an electronic screen instead of a human being's face--it all means that you are different. It's just human nature. There's a reason why people still refer to real life as "real life" and nobody refers to the internet as "real life."

For my part, I draw a bright distinction between the Internet and real life which is why I don't take anything that's said on here personally. The only reason I don't do stuff like reverse my political views or pretend to be a 17-year old girl is that it's way too much work. I don't expect anybody here to be acting the way they do in real life either. To me, it is totally irrational to expect that anybody here resembles their real life persona. I'm sure there are points of comparison most of the time, but it's a totally futile exercise.

As for my style of argument, I think you have to recognize that the goals of debate on the internet are completely different from the goals of face to face debate in real life. When you are having an argument in real life, you are trying to convince the other person to see things your way. Being overly confrontational and saying that the other person lacks basic comprehension skills doesn't accomplish that goal--it only makes them retrench more firmly in their position. On the internet, however, it's more like a public political debate. Your goal isn't to convince the other person of your point of view, and in fact you might as well give up on that idea as a lost cause. Your goal is to state your position as persuasively as you can so that OTHER people reading your posts are more likely to see things your way. And if it so happens that the other person says something stupid and you can point that out in a way that makes it clear to any other reasonable person reading what you're saying, that's totally inbounds.

As for Facebook, I divide people into two broad groups: those who have over 300 friends and those who don't. I'm one of the latter group specifically because I only add people to my friends list if I have met them in person or I have had a long online association with them (at least three years). I'm not trying to make a judgment here. I'm just saying that when your friends list consists entirely of people you know very well, you're going to treat them very differently than a random assortment of faces you've bumped into. It's just human nature.

[Typhoid]

Xantar is not real. Neither is Typhoid...

You can ask Dylflon, Dyne, Swan or Fox. Hell, you can even ask BAB - I'm me all around. I don't see the point to hide behind a computer screen to be someone else. I'm always me, and I'm fairly sure they are too.

As for Facebook, I divide people into two broad groups: those who have over 300 friends and those who don't. I'm one of the latter group specifically because I only add people to my friends list if I have met them in person or I have had a long online association with them (at least three years). ... I'm just saying that when your friends list consists entirely of people you know very well, you're going to treat them very differently than a random assortment of faces you've bumped into...

I have nearly 400 friends on facebook(after deleting hundreds a long time ago) because I know nearly 400 people. I mean, it's your view on it - so I'm not going to argue it really - but as for the "I'm just saying that when your friends list consists entirely of people you know very well, you're going to treat them very differently than a random assortment of faces you've bumped into. " - I personally treat everyone the same until they give me a reason not to. I treat people I talk to and know from the internet (BAB/Bond, for example) the same way I'd talk to Dylflon or Dyne - people I've been friends with practically my entire life.

The reason I'm saying all this is because it actually bugs me when people make generalizations like that. I'm me. I'm always me. I treat people that I don't know (from the internet) the exact same way I'd treat someone who I just bumped into at some various place around town, and then only talk to them here and there via texts/MSN/facebook. Clearly, not everyone is the same. I understand that. But don't bring down my ship with generalizations based on how you live your life.

[Xantar]

So when people point out that you've misunderstood the point they are trying to make, you immediately start insulting their penises to their face as well? Dude, you've got issues...

Ok, ok, that's too glib. Let me just condense my point. You interact with real people with your body language and your voice in face to face meetings. You interact with people on the internet using words that you type by pushing buttons on a keyboard. The two of them are radically different and they access very different parts of your brain. They are not the same and can never be the same. Humans are just not wired that way. So although you may be approaching the internet with the attitude that you're going to treat everybody the same way you would in real life, the fact of the matter is you can't. You can give it a try, and I'm certainly not going to stop you. But fundamentally, interacting with people over the internet is less immediate and a less comprehensive social experience than face to face contact. And I think anybody who wants to claim that they are just the same and equal is either pretending or fooling themselves.

[Typhoid]

So when people point out that you've misunderstood the point they are trying to make, you immediately start insulting their penises to their face as well? Dude, you've got issues...

I do, yes. If someone's talking like an idiot and starts off by trying to get cheapshots in to every nook of a conversation for no absolute reason, why would I treat them with any shred of respect?

And I think anybody who wants to claim that they are just the same and equal is either pretending or fooling themselves.

Or maybe they're just comfortable enough with who they are as a person that they don't feel the need to hide parts of themselves just because they're conversing over the internet.

[Vampyr]

The internet is as real as anything else to me.

I used to be a caricature of my real self on the internet, but for the past several years I'm the same person online as I am offline. I'm not sure if it's maturity or just not really caring about representing myself any differently than I am.

[Xantar]

That's all well and good, but here's my point again: you cannot be totally, exactly the same as your real life self on the internet. It's just not possible.

When posting on a message board, you take at least some minimal amount of time to think through what you're saying. The flow of conversation is totally different. If you talked in real life exactly the same way as you do on the internet, there is something seriously wrong with you.

Another example? If someone messages you over the internet while you're doing something, it's pretty easy for you to ignore them or to tell them you're busy and come back later. If they walk through the door of your room in person, it's a much different thing to tell them to leave you alone.

If you had to donate a kidney and you had to choose between two people you like equally well but you've only met one of them in person and the other person you've only ever met online, which one would you give the kidney to? If you choose the person you've known in real life, I would contend that it's because you know that meeting someone on the internet much less important and real and social than meeting them in person. Humans are social animals. We are built that way.

You can say that your online personality matches your real life personality and that it shares many of the same attributes. That's fine. But the question is whether you are exactly the same and all your interactions are exactly the same as if you were meeting face to face. And even though you can try your hardest to be just like you are in real life, you can never totally bridge the gap.

This isn't unique to the internet. Back in the print days, it was common for people to speak of someone having a "writer persona" even if they were opinion columnists for a newspaper theoretically expressing their own personal views in their own voice. Everybody understood even if the words on the page accurately expressed the views and personality of the person writing them, they weren't the same as the actual flesh and blood human being. I don't have a problem if you insist that you're mostly the same as your real life self, but if I ever meet any of you in real life, I'm not going to expect you to behave the same way as you do on the internet. Because you won't.

[Neo]

I love the Power Glove. It's so bad.

[BreakABone]

I am going to agree and disagree with Xantar here. I personally believe that you exist on the internet as a fragment of your personality, but I believe that people wear many "faces" in their life.

The same way, most people don't act the same way around their parents/family as they do with their friends or their co-workers. We all learn to adept and change our personas (as little as possible) to fit into the situation.

I feel the internet is no different. Most of you speak to me outside of this forum, and I'm sure a ton of you have issues with the way I sometimes write my IMs, do you think I speak in those vague, broken sentences in real life?

On the other end, the general persona that I represent on the internet is pretty much what you will get when you meet me, as I'm sure many on these forums can attest to.

So guess the short and simple of it, yes the internet is real, but no you aren't ever 100% you on it.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by Xantar

That's all well and good, but here's my point again: you cannot be totally, exactly the same as your real life self on the internet. It's just not possible.

That's a pretty flimsy point though, considering you can also say "You're not the same person over the phone as you are in a letter". I suppose I agree that you are not 100% exactly the same person. But I'd also say you're never 100% the same person as you were yesterday.

Originally Posted by Xantar

If someone messages you over the internet while you're doing something, it's pretty easy for you to ignore them or to tell them you're busy and come back later. If they walk through the door of your room in person, it's a much different thing to tell them to leave you alone.

What's your point other than telling people to fuck off? It's easy to ignore a phonecall. It's easy to burn a letter. It's easy not to open your front door.
I'd also just like to say it's rather easy to tell someone to go away if you're in person. It's easy to lie over the phone and say "Hey, call back later, I'm ___" when you just don't want to talk to them. It's easy to get someone else to answer your door and say that you're not home. Is it different over the internet? Not responding to a message is no harder/easier than not picking up your phone, ignoring a call, or not answering your door.

Originally Posted by Xantar

If you had to donate a kidney and you had to choose between two people you like equally well but you've only met one of them in person and the other person you've only ever met online, which one would you give the kidney to? If you choose the person you've known in real life, I would contend that it's because you know that meeting someone on the internet much less important and real and social than meeting them in person. Humans are social animals. We are built that way.

In my previous comments I wasn't stating I prefer people I've never met. Nor do I bond with them better. I actually only talk to (meaning at least once a week) maybe 3 people I've never met. What I was saying before is that over the internet - in places like this forum for example, or talking via MSN, or text messaging, I'm me. I'm not hiding behind some wall and sheltering who I am. If you ask me something over MSN or face-to-face the answer will be the same. Of course the online answer will be a little more thought-out because you do have the luxury of time, and of not being interrupted - however I won't change what I was going to say just because it's not happening in person. That's what my point was. Maybe I'm more open in my life than most, I'm not sure. Maybe I'm comfortable with conversation no matter who it's with. It's how I was raised.

Originally Posted by Xantar

But the question is whether you are exactly the same and all your interactions are exactly the same as if you were meeting face to face.

The answer is yes. I like social situations. I enjoy talking to people. I'm talking personally, of course. I'm not saying 'Generally people are the same over the internet", I'm saying I am. The reason I view it as the same, is because I view it as just another way to converse with someone, like I do with a phone. Proof of this is my high impatience when talking to someone on MSN, because I do take it in context of a conversation. That's why I type how I would talk. If I'm talking to you on MSN, you have my undivided attention - barring being drunk/stoned/playing a game/listening to music - as would be the case if we were talking over the phone, or in the same room. If I'm busy and can't talk to someone, I sign off of MSN. Why be there in the first place if you're completely unavailable to talk. That's pointless and rude.

Originally Posted by Xantar

This isn't unique to the internet. Back in the print days, it was common for people to speak of someone having a "writer persona" even if they were opinion columnists for a newspaper theoretically expressing their own personal views in their own voice.

Yes, but the problem I have with that - is that is for a job. The same way news anchors aren't themselves, or sports telecasterguys aren't themselves when they're on TV. A job is out of the question in this topic. Maybe if all of us are getting paid to sit around and do sweet F.A. over the internet that would fit in here, but it just doesn't. You can't compare posting on a forum or talking via a messenger service to some guy who gets paid to write articles, and will get fired if they aren't good enough. However if people got kicked off the internet for not being interesting enough, it would be a far better place.

[Xantar]

Edit: Never mind. Let's just get to basics. What do we mean when we say "real" anyway? Does anyone have a working definition? That seems to be the entirety of the hangup here.