Worrying About the Future

[Professor S]

I was watching Dennis Miller on his CNBC show a while back, and quite to my surprise John Rhys Davies (Gimli of LOTR fame) made a very valid and very controversial point. That point was that in a short amount of time (I forget what the exact timespan was, but I think he said 10 years) the majority of people living in Western Europe will be Muslim, whether by conversion or relocation. (He also cited a study on it, which I forget right now)

Now this may not seem like a big deal, as on the surface religion seems to have little effect on government, but when you look deeper into it this becomes more troubling.

Islam and Democracy do not make for good bedfellows.

Islam is tied very deeply into every aspect of a Muslim's life, especially in their political views as the Quran (sp?) is essentially taken as law in most cases in Islamic nations.

If Islam becomes the majority in Western Europe in the near future, how will this effect non-muslims? How will this effect the very nature of democracy and the separation of church and state?

I would like to get the input of some Europeans on this, both Muslim and Christian and get their feelings. Maybe the nature of the Western Muslim is different than that of the Middle Eastern Muslim like the nature of the American Muslim tend to be.

So what are you're thoughts?

[GiMpY-wAnNaBe]

the holy book for muslim (ijust wanted to avoid trying to spell it), doesn't necessarily have vastly different political views, for example, i doubt that saddam hussein followed the book very closely. More often than not its the western hemisphere having differences with them, and this is how wars start.

[Bond]

Islam will just be transformed to fit into society like other religions have. I'm not too worried.

[Crono]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in Canada right now. Especially in Toronto.. tons of Muslims and immigrants from the Middle East. Now a days, in a lot of areas in Toronto, if you're white (and Christian), you're a minority. Kind of makes me feel uncomfortable (not in a racist way... just being from northern Ontario, there is little diversity when it comes to other religions and races). They are even trying to get a "Sharia Court" in Canada.. a Muslim Court (set up by Muslims).. so that Muslims can be governed by it... which, I am totally opposed to. Becuase they want to use the Koran to determine the rights of Muslims in Canada.

But I agree with Bond.. somehow it will be merge with society, just like Christianity has.

[BlueFire]

Wasn't Christianity somehow responsible for molding the society we know now?

[Stonecutter]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

I was watching Dennis Miller on his CNBC show a while back, and quite to my surprise John Rhys Davies (Gimli of LOTR fame) made a very valid and very controversial point. That point was that in a short amount of time (I forget what the exact timespan was, but I think he said 10 years) the majority of people living in Western Europe will be Muslim, whether by conversion or relocation. (He also cited a study on it, which I forget right now)

Now this may not seem like a big deal, as on the surface religion seems to have little effect on government, but when you look deeper into it this becomes more troubling.

Islam and Democracy do not make for good bedfellows.

Islam is tied very deeply into every aspect of a Muslim's life, especially in their political views as the Quran (sp?) is essentially taken as law in most cases in Islamic nations.

If Islam becomes the majority in Western Europe in the near future, how will this effect non-muslims? How will this effect the very nature of democracy and the separation of church and state?

I would like to get the input of some Europeans on this, both Muslim and Christian and get their feelings. Maybe the nature of the Western Muslim is different than that of the Middle Eastern Muslim like the nature of the American Muslim tend to be.

So what are you're thoughts?

Once Americans and "The West" learn to be more tolerant of other cultures, (which should be right around the time the liberals retake control of the United States government) things will be fine. Until such time, I fear right along with you.

Of course, you could just stop giving aid to Israel and all your muslim problems would be over in about 24 hours, but there's no time for logical solutions.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by BLueFire

Wasn't Christianity somehow responsible for molding the society we know now?

Yes... America was built on the morals of the Bible. The world is so screwed up right now that I don't even want to have children. Too many changes for the worse are happening all over the world... in america and over seas. And yes... people will always twist the bible's words to fit there own needs.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Stonecutter

Once Americans and "The West" learn to be more tolerant of other cultures, (which should be right around the time the liberals retake control of the United States government) things will be fine.

How exactly would us being more tolerant of their culture make them any more tolerant of ours?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

How exactly would us being more tolerant of their culture make them any more tolerant of ours?

Excellent point and you beat me to it.

As for those who believe that Muslims will just incorporate themselves into what is in a large part Christian law, what happens when Muslims are empowered by numbers and feel the need to be ruled by what they view as their law and not ours, as was pointed out is already happening in Canada?

What happens id Muslims have their own courts one commits offense against a Christain? What court will that case be decided in? Will the other side respect the decision of the court the case takes place in?

What happens if a Muslim kills a Christian and is let go because he killed an infidel/heretic (and depending on your interpretation of the Quran that is a viable argument)?

[Typhoid]

There shouldnt be laws according to religion, it should be laws according to the country/region you are in.

If your in a Muslim country, then you get muslim laws, Christian country, christian laws etc. etc.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

There shouldnt be laws according to religion, it should be laws according to the country/region you are in.

If your in a Muslim country, then you get muslim laws, Christian country, christian laws etc. etc.

And what of Muslims eventually out numbering Christians in these "Christian" countries? Laws should be based off of common sense of what's good and bad, not religion.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Crono

And what of Muslims eventually out numbering Christians in these "Christian" countries? Laws should be based off of common sense of what's good and bad, not religion.

There lies the problem. Notions of common sense and good and bad can vary greatly depending how deeply entrenched you are into Christianity/Islam. Many Muslims find women's rights to be offensive enough that if a women were to walk down a street in Saudi Arabia in a tank top they would be stoned by the populace.

A Christian sense of common sense and right and wrong would find that criminal, while the much more socially conservative Muslim ideals would have little problem with it.

This is where my worries stem from.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

There lies the problem. Notions of common sense and good and bad can vary greatly depending how deeply entrenched you are into Christianity/Islam. Many Muslims find women's rights to be offensive enough that if a women were to walk down a street in Saudi Arabia in a tank top they would be stoned by the populace.

A Christian sense of common sense and right and wrong would find that criminal, while the much more socially conservative Muslim ideals would have little problem with it.

This is where my worries stem from.

Well I understand what you are saying. Women in Islam can not even have male friends. They are stoned to death for cheating, and you get your hands cut off for stealing.

But... I would think (or hope) that most Muslims become more socially relaxed like we have, and not take their religous laws to the fullest extent. Example... the legalization of gay marriages. It specifically says in the Bible that "God hates that" (referring to gay/lesbians), yet some countries, who are Christian, will still legalize it.

I really don't think that Islam will over throw Christianity, but then again, it's happened in the past, in some places.

Kind of worries me too, I suppose.

I guess we need to start another Crusade. Who's up for it?!

[Professor S]

Yeah, that worked out so well last time

[Stonecutter]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Yes... America was built on the morals of the Bible. The world is so screwed up right now that I don't even want to have children. Too many changes for the worse are happening all over the world... in america and over seas. And yes... people will always twist the bible's words to fit there own needs.

We shouldn't expect them to be tolerant of our culture until we give them a reason. Actually respecting theirs would be a good start.