Abortion/Adoption/Birth Rights

KillerGremlin · 10-26-2009, 05:48 PM

So one topic that has kind of pissed me off in my Gender and Women Studies class is birth rights. A lot of feminists believe they are entitled to have full control of their birth situation. They argue that if they get pregnant it is their decision to have an abortion, give the child up for adoption, or birth it, regardless of what the man wants or thinks.

This is fine and dandy, but if a girl gets pregnant and a man DOESN'T want the child, he still has to pay child support! So what the fuck is up with that? A man can say he wants to keep the child and have his opinion ignored while the woman gets an abortion because it's her body, her decision. But if a man doesn't want to have the child the woman can have it and make the man pay child support!

You can't have your cake and eat it...and this premise smacks of inequity, even if women bare the brunt of childbirth.

Thoughts? Am I just a crazy misogynist?

Bond · 10-26-2009, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

So one topic that has kind of pissed me off in my Gender and Women Studies class is birth rights. A lot of feminists believe they are entitled to have full control of their birth situation. They argue that if they get pregnant it is their decision to have an abortion, give the child up for adoption, or birth it, regardless of what the man wants or thinks.

I think that kind of view by some / many feminists is a rather extreme view that is a reaction to previous extreme views of male domination over women.

When one looks at the birth of a child, I think there are three apparent stakeholders (mother, father, child-to-be) and two not-so apparent (greater family, society). Ideally all stakeholders should be consulted to varying degrees before the birth of a child. Of course, the child-to-be cannot be consulted, but the best interests of the future child can be reasonably surmised.

KillerGremlin · 10-26-2009, 06:34 PM

I'd say I agree with you. The strong rallying around abortion is indeed a reaction to extreme male-domination. It gave/gives females a platform to defend their birth rights.

My legal or philosophical feeling on this is that in a consensual or mutual sexual relationship (so no coercion or power inequity or forced sexual experience or rape, etc.) I think both parties should have a say in the birth issue. And that should be extended to the child-to-be but we live in a less than perfect society so I'll leave the 'ethics of abortion' debate out of this here thread.

One observation I'm making in my study of humans is that we have a total lack of responsibility for sex. I would say sex is the number one problem with humans....followed by acts of violence and aggression.

Typhoid · 10-26-2009, 08:23 PM

The problem with feminists in the first place (I mean this in all seriousness, though it lacks tact) is that they don't want equality, they want the power men had from the turn of the century. The "I can rule the world, because I'm a woman" mentality. Clearly I'm not talking the "Yay I'm proud to be a woman" feminists, but the "Don't hold the door for me, I can do it myself/I spell 'women' with a 'y'" feminists.

I don't think it should entirely be up to the woman. At all. 50%. If she re-produced A-sexually (or if she was raped), then the decision is hers, and hers alone.

However, since a penis was thrust into her god-willing vagina, and sperm from said penis broke through her egg, it is not just up to her anymore. Her vagina, their fetus.

Jason1 · 10-26-2009, 11:22 PM

Eh, I don't really have a problem with the woman having total control over their baby, I mean it is growing in their body...

Does this make me gay?

Swan · 10-27-2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason1

Eh, I don't really have a problem with the woman having total control over their baby, I mean it is growing in their body...

Does this make me gay?

Very much so.

Professor S · 10-27-2009, 10:26 AM

To me, the real issue with abortion law (for non-idealists) is that it is very obvious to a lot of people that at some point a fetus becomes a child located inside a womb. The main problem is that no one can really say when that happens, so it's very difficult to judge when an abortion is the equivalent of removing an unwanted growth or when it is the equivalent of infanticide.

Ethically to me, if a an unborn child reaches the number of months equal to that it can be viable if born prematurely, then it is a child and should be granted the rights of a child, and the mother/parents should be responsible for the child as if it were in their hands and not in their belly. At that point, that question isn't one of humanity, but of location.

Legally, I remain a fan of the first law regarding abortion in Britain: No abortions after the 4th month (with an exception for cases where the mother's life is in danger if the pregnancy continues). To me, that gives plenty of time for the host to purge the unwanted fetus, but also does a lot of protect unborn life.

wek-k · 11-18-2009, 11:31 AM

I also agree that this should only be used in extreme cases where the mothers life is in danger or if the baby is very ill and wouldnt live for very long outside once born so it would be the merciful thing to do. End its life before it has to suffer during its short life before dying.

I dont feel partial birth should be treated the same way as regular abortion since the fetus can almost live outside the womb at this point and is closer to being a person.

TheGame · 11-18-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

So one topic that has kind of pissed me off in my Gender and Women Studies class is birth rights. A lot of feminists believe they are entitled to have full control of their birth situation. They argue that if they get pregnant it is their decision to have an abortion, give the child up for adoption, or birth it, regardless of what the man wants or thinks.

This is fine and dandy, but if a girl gets pregnant and a man DOESN'T want the child, he still has to pay child support! So what the fuck is up with that? A man can say he wants to keep the child and have his opinion ignored while the woman gets an abortion because it's her body, her decision. But if a man doesn't want to have the child the woman can have it and make the man pay child support!

You can't have your cake and eat it...and this premise smacks of inequity, even if women bare the brunt of childbirth.

Thoughts? Am I just a crazy misogynist?

Interesting way to put it.

I'm torn on the pro-choice pro-life thing.. Morally I'm more inclined to be pro life. If there was a law to be voted on, then I'd vote pro life over choice. But I honestly never really considered the father's opinion on the subject. lol

If its rape in any form, I think the rapist should have no say, period (Yes, if a 14 year old boy gets his 30 year old teacher pregnent, he or his family should have the same rights as a woman in the same situation). If its consensual, then I think IF the mother is considering abortion, that the father should be able to force her to have the child. And the child would be 100% under the father's custody, and the mother would have to pay the father child support.

In the cases where they both don't want the baby, then.. well, those are the cases where the government should either set it as completely the parents choice, or there should be a law forcing them to have the baby. (depending on the state)

But, moral of the story.. if either parent wants the baby to be born, it should be born, period.

Szymon · 11-20-2009, 06:11 PM

I believe that the choice to give birth to the child belongs to the mother, but I also believe that if the father does not want to be a part of the child's life that he should be able to forfeit any financial responsibility he would have for the child. Likewise, the woman could agree to give birth to the child and then detach any further responsibilities and leave the child with the father if they both agreed to the decision within a reasonable amount of time (e.g. before abortion becomes murder). This way at least the father has a choice. Women will do some really sneaky things to get pregnant, and I find it completely unfair for a man to have to deal with their treachery for the rest of his life.

Vifaddy09 · 11-25-2009, 08:20 PM

What about abortions for those who became pregnant either through rape or some situation like that? I mean, yeah, you could give the baby away for adoption, but some people wouldnt want a 9-month long reminder of what happened. I, myself wouldnt go through one unless there were serious health risks, but I also feel there is the right for people to make the decision in certain cases, including rape.

What exactly is a partial birth abortion though?