[KillerGremlin]

I like you Prof...because at least you're fair. And I find that by putting my thoughts out here, I learn stuff (like your response and Seth's post). I'm pretty reactionary which is another reason why I wouldn't survive in law...but I digress.

Originally Posted by Professor S

That is not correct, but I understand why you think that. Those that want to create more class warfare and contempt for wealth for poltical gain always quote the "disparity between the rich and the poor". Yes, there is a growing disparity, but all "classes" have grown in wealth in the recent past. Adjusted for inflation, I believe the rich have grown by around 70% while the poor have grown by aout 30% over the last 30 years. Again, I'm remembering this off the top of my head so please don't quote me on the numbers. Also, I'm not saying this is acceptable of unacceptable, I'm simply stating what it is.

True. My post was pretty reactionary...I guess it just seems that way (the broadening gap) given all the media focus on the CEOs and the bankers.

Originally Posted by Professor S

No, and I don't. That is a personal choice. People are responsible for their own actions. While I agree that credit card companies have been essentially abusing relaxation in usery law for years (I'm happy to see the new laws passed about credit abuse), at this point does anyone not know that they'll be paying exorbinate interest rates on credit cards, etc? No. The Anerican Dream doesn't excuse poor choices, but it will forgive them if you make better choices. The American Dream is about choice.

Agreed...especially on a person level. People make bad choices. I think there is a lot of deception and things that influence people to make bad choices, and it questions the motives of credit card companies and banks, but it is what it is and if people were wiser (like my parents, and it sounds like you and your family as well) then it'd be better in general. On the other hand, do you think our government and our economy is structured in a way that is beyond our means? Is there a point where this country will financially hit a roadblock and not be able to resolve the issue? I'm asking your opinion, not argumentatively because I do not know.

Originally Posted by Professor S

"Poor" is a relative term. In many nations these "sweatshops" pay on average more than their average citizen makes. Is it "slave labor" in America? Yes. But these countries are not America and what they can get for a dollar is far different from what we can get for a dollar. Also, India and China's economies and educational levels have exploded because of an influx of work from overseas. In a few years both of those countries are going to have more college graduates than we have high school graduates. You cannot exclude this skyrocketing standard of living from the surge in the global economy, and in fact, I would say it's because of the so called "slave labor" that these countries are exploding in terms of wealth and standard of living.

My understanding is the brain drain actually has caused India to take a financial hit as a country? Again, I'm not really trying to provoke an argument, I've just heard conflicting reports. Also, there exists sweatshops outside of China and India where standards are a lot different. We could probably do a whole thread on labor across the world, and globalization and all that. I think you'd find I agree with you about a lot of the issues because I personally believe that as we progress as a global society, much of what determines a country's value will be education.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I think the American Dream is about chasing whatever it is that you can define as success. It's not about what the group says you should have or need, its about what YOU determine you want and need. Letting the group determine your life is not freedom or a dream, its oppression and a nightmare.

And I agree with this! I say AMEN! I think the problem is our society has defined what people need/want. Especially current generations. I know when I was in high school there was little leeway for the artists or musicians or the people who wanted to pursue something outside of college like plumbing or electricity. It was a push from high school to college to the job that you supposedly need and want at the end of the tunnel. For many people, I think, society conditions them to believe they have this set path. And it gets worse and worse because our education now focuses on standardized testing and bullshit tests like the ACT or the GRE to determine intelligence (these tests are as flawed as the IQ tests). I think our country is becoming a bit oppressed, I think it is very covert. Again...I could go on this for hours, we could dedicate a thread to this.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I would point back to my earlier statements about government interference, 30's and 40's in particular, for much of what we find lacking in poor family dynamics in America, especially among urban minorities. Contempt for wealth is also a reason hy I think people tend to disregard education. Why study if you can never improve your situation, or worse yet, if you bask in your own poverty and needful status? There is no point and therefore no progress is made.

Agreed. Again, all this standardized testing and merit of intelligence doesn't help either, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Professor S

By whose standard do ou make such claims about want and need? Yours? I find it funny that you might expect people to take life advice from someone with such a negative view of the world.

Touche, I guess?

Originally Posted by Professor S

It depends on the person. My dream is to live and retire comfortably while raising a happy and healthy family. Bill gates dream was to build the largest and most successful software company in the world, and once he achieved it, his new dream is to be the world's greatest philathropist. He has achieved both and his American Dream has literally helped MILLIONS.

It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others.

My comment about the CEO thing was kind of a sarcastic response to your statement which was:
"Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV."

I don't think people really want to become overpaid CEOs or to get on TV. I think they just want the basic stuff like what you want: a family, retirement, a beer. Of course I cannot speak on behalf of everyone, but neither can you.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats your opinion, and how you have defined success. And by the way, if that makes people TRULY happy and is not simply a bandage to cover the wounds of an unhappy life (Marx), I'm fine with that and would encourage them continue.

I'll agree to disagree and add a twist. I think we are a consumerist driven society but I think we are a species that is driven by want anyway. I think that drive could be good in that it gives us something to live for. And I'll leave it at that because again...we could make a whole new thread.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats you. I'm driven by more own sense of achievement and my puruit of happiness. I am perfectly happy and I live well below my means, 10% of my salary goes into my retirement account, I drive a 2000 Buick Century and live in an old house I'm fixing up. If I want something and can afford it with all things considered, I go get it. I like living in a country where I am free to do so and industry is free to offer me things I might like to purchase (and by the way, so enables their families to succeed and prosper as well) Currently, my biggest money worry is making enough money to allow my wife to quit her job and work from home while raising our children. THAT is what would make me happy. Money is just the means for attaining it.

"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand

My statement was both brash and a disclaimer to myself. Basically, my disclaimer is that I want stuff and I enjoy wanting it. I don't consider myself better or unique than anyone else in the world, and my observations about our consumerist driven society are true to myself. Money doesn't make me happy...writing, music, exercising, my family, my girlfriend, my pursuits of education on my own behalf...these things make me happy. I also enjoy horology, a recent hobby, which requires money. I realize watches are a somewhat superficial hobby, but it could be argued that video gaming or comics or anything is. At the same time, I do think that a lot of the things I want are things I don't need, and that want does help motivate myself to work. I guess it is just conditioning.

Originally Posted by Professor S

There is no accusation in pointing out the obvious. The American Dream is an individualist one. It always has been and always will be. Look at the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is the standard by which the idea of the American Dream was originated and it is literally a "thou shall not" list for the government when it comes to it screwing with the individual.

By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy.

I like the Constitution.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And yet through all of this SlyMoogle has not given up on the American Dream, regardless of what he claims. The fact is, as he stated, he is still working towards it.

The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted.

I guess the only thing I would say to this is that sometimes your culture and government influences you in a way that does impact what you can or cannot do. Your mobility in society is greatly influenced by your race, class, sexuality, etc. Some people have to overcome additional burdens (like a black queer vs. white straight person) and that is how privilege factors into the pursuit of the American dream. That's my opinion. And as far as "you own your future," I would disagree. You don't chose your skin color or your sexuality, and so part of your future is dictated by your personal choices as well as the world you live in. 100 years ago, if you were born with a mental disorder you were thrown into a prison for life and tortured. Pre-Stonewall, if you were gay and you went to a club you got throw in jail. Today, if you you use crack cocaine you face more time in prison than someone who uses regular cocaine (and guess which communities have the highest rates of use of crack cocaine).

Ultimately, you and I are going to disagree forever unless my opinion changes (and I'm open to change....lol...I've changed on quite a few issues that I think even you and I have discussed during my tenure on these boards). I respect the people who do rise above their struggles, they are the examples that we as a society should live by.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And does telling people how hard their lives are, or convincing them that "the man" will always keep them down help things? This is exactly what I don't understand: How does all of this overwrought and hyperbolic negativity help anyone? Has any of it ever benefitted your life? IMO, it just creates and continues a culture of lowered expectations.

And this is my #1 problem with sociology. It is a bit self-serving and self-loathing. At the same time, I hope that by recognizing the broader social issues that keep certain groups repressed we can move forward as a society. You said I'm very negative, but I think that's a fairly optimistic way to look at sociology and things like civil rights. Also, when you have groups in the age bracket of 12-18 (inner city kids who go to Chicago Public Schools) that see gang violence frequently, or Latino children attending schools in California who see murders (and it is common enough of occurrence that it happens to about 1 in 3 youth), it becomes less of a self-defeating exercise and more of a "what the heck is wrong with society?" conversation.

Originally Posted by Professor S

My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence.

Again, I think there is some truth in this and that the truth in it is inspiring. But overall I'm going to agree to disagree. And pleasantly so if I may add.

If this was a real pub I'd say let's put our differences aside and have a beer. This whole Internet thing is really throwing off the fun of a good argument, eh?