[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Me "grasping at straws" was actually me willing to entertain that there may be slight hints of truth behind this claims.

I'm sorry for the grasping at straws comment. I hope you didn't find it offensive, but these accounts are worthless if they are not accurate portrayals of actual miracles. No one needs a savior that can quickly build a wooden platform just below the surface of the water.

Christianity and our belief in God exists primarily because there is a being capable of supernatural feats that both created us and loves us. It's not by its nature a position where it is worthwhile to meet halfway. Either Jesus is God, or He isn't. If He isn't, there isn't much point in discussing His "tricks" aside from their responsibility in creating a 2000 year old cultural movement claiming roughly 2.1 billion followers.

That's why I was pushing. My claim rests on the divine nature of these miracles, not that there was a man who was capable of a couple of really neat tricks 2000 years ago.

However, let's move on.

Originally Posted by Teuthida

So really there is no proof of any of these things occurring. Just some stories from an old book. Why should I believe that? I'd be more willing to believe the story of Icarus flying too close to the sun. At least it's known that wax melts.

What you need to do is prove to me that they happened, and cite more than one source. Just because your one source says multiple people saw it, does not make it true.

You ask for more than one source. I can cite a couple of additional sources.

Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus writes about Jesus in his Antiquities of the Jews written around 93-94 AD.

"And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus... Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned." - Book 20, Chapter 9, 1.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." - Book 18, Chapter 3, 3.

Roman historian and senator Tacitus mentions Jesus in his Annals written AD 116.

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind". - Book 15, Chapter 44.

Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor, speaks of the Christian movement in his letters to the Emperor Trajan around 112 AD.

"...were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition."

Pliny is writing to Trajan concerning what to do with the Christian movement. At this time in the Roman empire, being a Christian is punishable by death unless the individual repents and sacrifices to the Roman gods. Why would these people, less than 80 years after Jesus' death, willingly die rather than deny their God? It was easy to get out of, yet many died willingly. We were not far removed from Jesus' time. Why die for something if there was no proof? And why did this new religion not only succeed, but positively thrive in an atmosphere of persecution?

In addition to these sources which are the most well known, there are others. However, the Bible remains the most extensive historical document on Jesus precisely because it was written by the experts; the people who knew Jesus. Do you dismiss a historical account because the writer has direct knowledge of his subject material? I would think it would lend additional credence.

Originally Posted by Teuthida

I don't need to disprove that something didn't happened. If I came to you and told you a dragon just flew down the street and danced the Macarena, I would be the one required to offer proof. You would not have to disprove it because we live in a world where dragons don't exist, and no one dances the Macarena anymore. (Not with the true spirit of the dance at least.)




Damn, look at all those witnesses. There must really have been a leprechaun.

If you came to me with the above account, of course I would not be obligated to disprove it. However, if you amassed a following of Macarena dancing dragon believers in spite of governmental persecution leading to death that thrived in spite of that persecution leading to a following of over 2 billion people 2000 years later, I would be looking for some evidence before refuting your claim.