[jeepnut]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Then you are asking people to be gay but never truly happy. I'm not sure how that's any less cruel. It kind of reminds me of the story of Job - God essentially bets against Satan that no matter what horrible things he does to Job, Job will not stray. So God has evidently made these people gay and asked them, specifically, not to stray in this specific way. This is pretty pointless to argue because your reasoning is going to be, "That's the will of God so I have to believe it's right," and my reasoning is that it's cruel regardless of who does it, and why worship a cruel god?

People seem to think I would be a Christian if I believed God existed - I would not. The story of Job is a fine example of why.

Are you arguing that people are unable to be truly happy if they cannot satisfy their sexual desires? Millions of priests, nuns, monks, friars, and celibate lay persons would disagree with you and so obviously would the Catholic Church. True happiness is not the result of being able to fulfill each of our many urges whenever they present themselves. If all anyone needed to be happy was to fulfill their sexual urges, we would not have so many sex, masturbation, and porn addicts that are decidedly not happy.

As far as the story of Job, all bible stories are intended to teach a truth. However, would you agree that the intention of all stories is not necessary to teach a literal truth? The story of Job is intended to convey the spiritual truth that God allows the devil to tempt mankind and is written with the goal of presenting this truth in the best way without the concern for literal history. In other words, despite the way the story is presented, God does not make bets with the devil.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I'm saying it because earlier you said if I didn't believe in God then that meant your beliefs were not my problem. Some people think your beliefs are heresy. They derive a different meaning from the Bible passages you use to say homosexuality is a sin. In this case, it IS their problem, because they share the same religion as you.

Again, just because people disagree, God does not change. The teaching of the Catholic Church on the issue of homosexuality and homosexual acts has not changed since the time of Jesus. The church’s authority is traced unbroken to those first disciples Jesus chose. If it were true that you can't hold a belief because some people deny the teachings of Jesus and the church fathers, then the Church has a lot bigger concerns than whether or not homosexual acts are sinful. Since the beginning of the Church, there has been dissension on just about every teaching. This does not make the teaching false. Only those who deny the truth are false.

In matters of morality, opinions do not matter. Truth, by definition, is not subjective.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Because there is no compelling evidence to suggest otherwise. Suggesting that God exists because there is no proof he doesn't is not a valid argument - you could say that about any weird thing you can imagine. There is literally no difference between the myth of God and the myth of Santa Clause - except one is considered fantasy and the other isn't, for no reason.

You speak of cause and effect and suggest that since we do not know the cause of certain things it only makes sense to attribute it to God. No, that does not make sense. Over the span of human existence we have not known the cause of a great many things. Those causes were attributed to deities - at first there were many deities to explain many different causes. Eventually we got to where most major religions have 1 deity for all causes. However, as science progressed and we discovered the real cause for all these previously unexplained effects, God has been used to describe fewer things.

There is no reason to believe God will ever actually be the cause of anything. It is far more likely there is a scientific explanation, as there is for everything else, than a supernatural one.

One example is medicine. Religious people will often "pray" for ill or injured people. They 100% think that praying to God will have a tangible effect on that persons health. Why then does God only have the power to cure what doctors can? I have yet to see God regrow a limb. This either suggests he is unable or unwilling. If he is unable, then God is not all powerful. If he is unwilling, why does God hate amputees, but will occasionally help someone with cancer, struggling with chemo?

If, in 15 years, scientists find a way to regrow limbs that works 50% of the time, people will pray to God to help their relative regrow that limb, and if it works, will attribute their prayers to her success.

If in 30 years scientists find a way to regrow limbs that works 100% of the time, people will not pray and will not attribute the success to God.

So you are saying that you have faith that science will provide an explanation for the existence of the universe, correct? On what evidence is this faith based? Simply that science has found the causes of other observations that were previously unknown?

You say there is not compelling evidence to suggest that God exists. I say there is no compelling evidence that science can explain the origin of the universe from nothing. However, I am arguing that there IS compelling evidence for the existence of God. The easiest example is this:

We know the universe exists. In order for something natural to exist, it must have a cause. Something does not come from nothing. There is no scientific explanation possible for it to be so. The explanation must be supernatural. God is that supernatural explanation.

Because of this, there is a difference between God and Santa Clause. There is compelling evidence for God, but not for Santa Clause. Now Saint Nicholas on the other hand is another story...
As far as praying for injured people, you say that because you come from a viewpoint that says God doesn't exist. Let’s look at it from the other direction. If a doctor is successful in curing a patient, who’s to say God had no influence on that doctor’s ability to perform the task? God created each of us. Some of us he created with the ability to be medical professionals. He guides us to make decisions in crucial moments. Everything is part of God’s plan. So therefore, if in your example, we find a way to regrow limbs 100% of the time, then praise God! Thank you to him for giving us the ability to use our talents for such a great end. This is of course assuming that this end is achieved morally.

Also, you seem to state that science can explain any medical cure. I would caution against such a sweeping statement. There are numerous cases of illness being cured with no medical explanation. Many of these have been investigated by the Vatican with the assistance of a panel of doctors that it maintains throughout the world. For each of these that is certified as miraculous, it must meet the criteria of being instantaneous, complete, and durable as well as scientifically inexplicable. Each case is meticulously researched. Despite our increase in scientific knowledge, new miracles are discovered on a regular basis. If you believe that each of these cases has a scientific explanation, then that belief is not based on current knowledge. You have faith that science will eventually find an explanation, but you have no proof that that is the case.

The Catholic Church and it’s members are responsible for many of the greatest scientific achievements of mankind. We deeply believe in the abilities of the scientific method; heck, a Franciscan friar invented it. Everyday our knowledge of the world increases and with that increase in knowledge, so too does our faith increase.

You talk about the non-existence of God as if it is self-evident yet you have given no compelling evidence to support this. I have presented two compelling pieces of evidence from my point of view, neither of which has a scientific explanation: the universe coming into existence from nothing and miracles. Because of this, I argue that the burden of proof now lies with you to provide some evidence to support the non-existence of God.