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Originally Posted by Professor S
1) Speed. I've never seen so many breaches of constitutional intent (bordering on actual violations) in so fast a time. Even Bush didn't come into office and begin rewriting the founders immediately.
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Does it matter how fast its done? No, it just matters that its done. And please, can you give a more specific example of Obama directly breaking the law?
The problem started with the government borrowing money from people who are not in the governement. That is what should have been made illegal to start. when money is taken, all of a sudden whoever loaned it gains influence over the government's decisions. And this is an issue that's not new, nor created by Obama.
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2) Scope. You can argue all you like about the patriot act and whether or not later boarding is torture, but the scope of what Pres. Obama is doing is about 1,000 time greater than what Bush ever did. Bush's accused violations and stretches of constitutional law were very specific, and tended to impact non-citizens and individuals the most. As for specific amendments violated in intent, you can only point to one: the 9th, and even that is a bit murky.
Pres. Obama is rewriting how the Federal government interacts with both business and states on a grand scale, and has trounced. So while tolerated some previous jockeying with constitutional intent, and disagreed with others, it's hard not to see such a difference between the two.
Also, Bush's violations of intent did not directly affect most people or the nature of our country's economic and governmental policy on a micro level. Pres. Obama's violations of intent have, and on a level that will affect everyone.
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I disagree completly. The Iraq war was started because of "evidence" that was gained by torchure.. evidence that was obviously a lie. How many lives did that cost alone? How bad did that mess up america's reputation? And how much money did that cost? I mean, are you fucking kidding me?
The patriot act is just a small thing in comparision to water boarding.
There is NO comparision whatsoever between what Bush has done to this country and what Obama is doing so far. Bush has done FAR worse. Obama is is not destroying our reputation and unnessicarily killing thousands of people.
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Game, I have never doubted that Pres. Obama believes that what he is doing is right and honorable, but once again history shows that whenever power is taken from the people it leads to further suffering regardless of good intentions. And while they have the best of intentions, they suffer from the same diseases that all "greater good" politicians suffer from: Hubris and Ignorance.
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The power has been being taken from us slowly over the last 100 years. It just goes back what I first said.. The government has allowed money from other souces to influence us. You can make Obama the face of it all you want, but this is not a new issue, and he's not doing anything anyone else couldn't have and wouldn't have done.