[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Xantar

Who knows what the intentions of the creators were? I could just as well say that you place far too much emphasis on a uniform as criteria for whether or not someone should be waterboarded. And maybe the Geneva Conventions were meant to be vague with regard to its definition of a prisoner of war.

You say they were meant to be vague, but in in what I pointed out they WEREN'T. There is NOTHING vague about that criteria. Also, whether or not prisoners are being waterboarded has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about who is covered by the GC, and not about any specific violations. What I'm concerned about with this ruling is 1) reduction of executive powrs for political reasons and 2) letting ethnocentric sensibilties hamper us during a brand new war that has less to do with nations and more to do with ideals and ways of life. They are not covered under the GC, they are specifically denied coverage, and id waterboarding one terrorist saves one marines life, waterboard like mad.

I don't know. I'm not a lawyer yet, and I don't claim to be able to read the Supreme Court's mind. But I just don't think that the mere fact that terrorists claim allegiance to a loose network of cells rather than a fully organized government is a reason to throw out several decades of time-tested and formulated law in the form of the UCMJ and Geneva Convention and make up brand new procedures based on a new definition of the enemy.

Yes, it is. This is a brand new kind of war and we can't let DATED regulations that assume civized actions on a war that is half military and half police action. I don't think the writers of the GC had any clue what the war on terrorism would be like or imagined nationless wars with nothing to do with national borders. I do know that they intended to GC to only cover those that represented these things, because it is the only part of the GC that is written in plain english. Whether you sympathize or want to rad it that way is irrelevant to me.

Well, first of all, if you're right then I don't understand the wisdom of trying to take the fight to their home land.

Because if we don't, they will take it to ours. Look at Israel. They tried. They pulled out of Labanon and Gaza and what happened? Plaestine elected Hamas as their government and ATTACKED FROM THE AREAS ISRAEL RETREATED FROM. Lebanon has also attacked from the areas that Israel gave back. Peace is the greatest horror terrorism knows. Over-anlysis of something so black and white as terrorism leads to inaction and inaction allows bigger and more hideous acts to take place. We ignored Osama for years hoping he'd just go away and instead we allowed him to organize the killing of 3,000 US citizens. And I really don't care about the whole "holy land" defense of his actions. Thats an excuse for blind violence, not a reason.

But more importantly, I'm not concerned with how the terrorists see us. As you pointed out, they will see us as the Great Satan regardless. However, with the erosion of global prestige comes vastly decreased diplomatic power. If war is supposed to be the option of last resort, then we should be ensuring that our position of negotiation is as strong as possible. If we want to be the world's policeman, then we should hold ourselves to a higher moral standard than anybody else. Otherwise, who will care to listen to us?

You still think this can all be resolved by talking about it, and dialogue has done nothing for 30 years. Since the West gave the Middle East the means to kill us with oil money, they have been trying to. They've attacked embassies, embassadors, ships and civilians. They've taken hostages and grandstanded for the world media. NOTHING has CHANGED.

I've said this for a while now and there are only two resolutions to this cultural conflict. 1) An Islamic reformation, which it is badly in need of, or 2) A complete subjugation of one people by the other. The cultural war is coming, and its coming soon. My original estimate was in 50 years, and then I ratcheted it down to 10.

Thoughtful discussion and diplomcy normally works, but how has it EVER WORKED IN THE MIDDLE EAST? It never will until the westernized form of it exists. It needs to recognize the separations between the religious and secular. They need to start believeing in NATIONALISM as well as their faith. They also need to honor and respect other faiths and governments other than their own.

But I think its too late for that. The Islam that we've grown to know and hate has reached a tipping point across the world, especially in Western Europe. Doubt me if you wish, oir cal, me a nutbag, but just wait and see. The world is going to have to choose what side they want to support and support it with arms and the blood of their people.

Now I've gone and depressed myself. I'm done talking about it.