[Neo]

Originally Posted by Bond

Shhhhhhh.


So then I can say this: Nothing happens in contradiction to the laws of Christianity, only in contradiction to what we know of Christianity.

Different kinds of laws. Laws of physics describe and predict nature, laws of religion dicate personal behavior.

Originally Posted by Xantar

I don't really understand why some Christians (note: I said some Christians) feel some kind of need to have their religion explain the physical facts of life. Why do the planets circle the sun? Is it because a big mass of cosmic dust had some kind of force acting on it before it all clumped together into the sun and the planets? Or is it because God made it that way? Who knows, but the problem with the debate is that both sides, with sufficient ingenuity, can make everything fit their theory.

That's not true. A theory is based on observable evidence. Religious notions of the beginning of life aren't "theories" at all. They're based on wishful thinking and ancient contradictory texts. And scientists do not twist the facts to fit the theory, they alter the theory to fit the facts. Religious people do not do this. And yes there are scientists which will attempt to modify facts to fit their own pet theories but on the whole that is not what science is about.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Neo, you seem to think that Religion is static, and its anything but. Christianity alone has changed untold times in its brief history, but change does not neccessarily equal invalidity. Some would lead you to believe that on both sides, but not those that understand what they are discussing. Religion is no more invalidated by change than science is, and in fact its even less likely to be invalidated by change because the only evidence that religion is beholden to is one's faith.

Religion is more powerful than just what someone is religious about. Its about faith and belief, not about what God is the right one or whether or not the earth was created in 7 days.

Religion seems to be static on all the points of consequence. There are the 10 Commandments, the story of creation, the ark story, there is salvation through Christ, and so forth. Will Christianity ever turn around and alter or renounce any of these things? Not a chance. Christianity is based on Christ afterall, and if he was ever invalidated then the whole religion would collapse. Science is not dependent on any one person or theory. Newton, Einstein, Shroedinger, they've all made contributions. Scientists thought Newton was the God of physics until Einstein created a revolution. Did physics simply go away? Of course not. It grew and adapted to the new evidence, something religion is very uncomfortable with. The only time religion really changes is when it is giving way to science.

A world without God is one in which the only in which its inhabitants believe in nothing but themselves, and eventually will believe in nothing at all.

I couldn't disagree more. As I said before there are plenty of atheists who live happy, moral lives and are excited about the future. There is no sign that they are on a path to believing nothing at all. I believe the confusion lies in the notion that a God is necessary to have a meaningful life. Meaning is a concept and only exists if you convey it onto something.

Besides, it never seemed to me that Abrahamic religions were really very concerned with explaining the ways of the world. By their very nature, science is concerned with explaining this world that we know and religion is concerned with the other world that we can never know. The two just have nothing to do with each other.

I actually disagree with this to, though I'm mainly alone with this position even among scientists. I don't believe that religion is immune to the reach of science. For example, if souls exist then they can be explained in terms of some yet undiscovered "soul particles" which can be measured and predicted. There is nothing truly paranormal or supernatural; Everything is normal and natural once we understand how it works. This is what I meant by my comment about things happening in contradiction to what we know of natural laws. Nothing is beyond the reach of physics, not even God.

/me activates heat shield