[CamFu]

Well, I’m very impressed with what you have said Cyrax. I’m going to debate your comments… of course, but I’m going cover it all. That is THREE pages of depating. I’m going to stick to what jumps out too me.

The problem with Iraq wasn't even going in, it wasn't even the fact that we went to war, it was the reason we went to war and the timing we chose to do so.

Bravo on picking up on this point. Personally I have very mixed feeling on this point. Timing is a very big key when going to “war”. Was it bad timing? I don’t really know, I mean think about it. America had just been kicked in the face with the attacks from Sept. 11th. And we hadn’t done anything about it other then send the UN over there to inspect. How long would you wait to hit somebody back after they had punched you in the face… not once but three times? Would you wait until a crowd came to support you? Would you wait for some friends to come back you up? Even if you where the all mighty class president and your reputation stood on the line… would you wait to get approval to fight?

On top of that, there used to be talk about how Syria was helping Iraq out. There where only so many inspectors over there (UN type), and while their backs where turned, who’s to say that Saddam didn’t start transporting weapons across the border? Because the UN never saw it or the news never reported it? Or how about Syria helping Iraq Import weapons into Iraq? Maybe if we just waited a little longer, we could have seen what really would have happened. Since the UN is always looking out for the US’s best interest.

When President Bush (Sr.) pulled out of Iraq, he did so to increase his reputation, he SCARED Saddam Hussein into fear of American attacks! Saddam was never a "threat" to the USA in the sense of a dictator who would attack us, if we were attacking to remove Dictator's, which is ironically the UN's job (notice how well they do it), one could argue we should be attacking small African countries as well. Thus, the idea of Iraq being a "true threat" to the US is ridiculous, they're more of a threat with Saddam gone.

Ok I’m going to make this all tie in together… just work with me here. Let me start off by saying Saddam was never scared that the Americans were going to attack. Saddam could give a rats a$$ about the USA and their Army. The first part of the statement is correct… Bush (Sr.) pulled out to increase his reputation. He also had congress breathing down his neck pulling him every which way. There was no fear in Saddam. We had no control (I mean political type) over Iraq. We have tried to put a strong hold on them, but with Saddam in power there was no bending. Now with countries like North Korea, we do have a political hold on them. Proof, we are in a cease fire right now, as we speak, with North Korea. And that was done over 50+ years ago. Why didn’t we do that with Iraq after Desert Storm? Because Saddam doesn’t care about what the US can do for him. And US Military has control over North Korea; they aren’t a threat to us. And if you actually think that Saddam wasn’t a threat, you need to recheck the facts of what kind of person this guy is, what his goals are in life. As for the African countries, you have to do the math here. I don’t remember any African military having the numbers to being one of the largest Militaries in the world. Iraq did. And if we waited, they could have built to greater numbers. I’m not 100% sure as of right now, but during Desert Storm, Iraq had the 3rd largest military in the world, personal wise.

Why did we go into Iraq with OBL still at large (and still at large now,)

Why do you think we are in Afghanistan? Who do you think is there? Why do you think that more countries support us being in Afghanistan then Iraq? If you answered “Because that is where the US thinks Bin Ladan is at”, you answered correctly. We are still trying to find him and bring him to justice.

I have a friend in the USAF, he builds munitions and for awhile he was stationed in Iraq before he was transferred back to TEXAS where he's currently stationed. I believe his exact words were "This war isn't about oil, or about Saddam as anybody believes, this is about the 51st state of America and Americanizing Iraq, and that's where the problem is!" He was VERY EMPHATIC at critizizing the planning and handling of the war and the mis-use of our troops.

Now Cyrax, I don’t want to offend you and I hope I don’t. But I’m going to put this out straight forward. Your Friend is an idiot. By your comments below… such as ” A Democracy in Iraq won't be the same type of Democracy that the US is used too, a Democracy in Iraq has to be "fit" to the culture, then and only then will they be able to understand it and while it may not be our idea of a democracy as they latch onto it and learn how to use it they will learn how to make alliances and establish trade routes in the area.” This just shows me that you know more about this war then he does. This isn’t what I’ve heard high racking officers and NCO’s saying verbatim, but it’s all the same lines.

This brings me to my next point: We had to fight this war eventually but we had to plan more and realize that these people were going to fight the same way the VC fought in Vietnam.

Once again, not trying to be an ass, but you sound like you read that some where. Don’t try and comment on something you don’t truly experience. I’ve heard this war compared to Vietnam, but these people don’t fight like the VC did. Guerilla Warfare, yes and that is where the comparison stops. One VC had more pride for their country then the whole Army of Iraq does for theirs. If this war was like Vietnam, don’t you think we would have been better prepared? I think so, because we have already experienced that type of enemy. Again, Cyrax… not trying to be a prick.

Minor things like that can lead to major differances, the whole Prison scandal was because eveerybody was oblivious too it at first, if we had more troops, with better training, we'd have been better off.

Dang it, I had a whole story written out for this and I forgot my point. So here is the short and sweet of it. Training, that is nonstop event out there and in the rear. More troops, you can only have so many people in fight before you start accidentally hitting your buddy.

As for you education comment. Maybe we aren’t considered the smartest in the world (hell, I use word to spell check more me), but I can tell you that when you start learning, you don’t jump straight into college. You have to start slow.

I have to say I'm with Neo on this one, Iraq was poorly handled, we could ahve done better.

And I still disagree.