A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Well now that America is busy hating itself over the Abu Graif debacle, it seems we are continuing to overlook the constant atrocities being committed to Western civilians over in Iraq. Keep in mind these civilians are actually trying to rebuild Iraq and provide them with a future.

http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/sto...96.htm&sc=1107

Al Quieda has decided to release a video of the BEHEADING of an American civilian in response to the pictures of the Iraqi prisoners that were released to the press last week.

Civilians are beheaded, burned and hung from bridges by insurgents and terrorists... and the media goes nuts over a few embarrassing photos and actually can now enjoy the fact that because they released the photos to the public instead of the military, WHICH IS AGAINST THE LAW, they are now responsible for the murder of an innocent civilian.

Just a reminder of how the world has completely lost perspective in Iraq. This message has been brought to you by the Foundation for Common Sense.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Yeah, I saw that right when I signed onto the net...

Above all, it reminded me how futile revenge-for-revenge is. That is, if the video is legit and not an act to anger the US, then the terrorist "heroics" are just foolish fuel for the cycle. I know, it happens in just about every conflict... and I'm not telling anybody anything that isn't clearly obvious. But, it's the first thing that jumped into my mind. Media posts pictures... terrorists kill civilians... terrorist leaders get bombed... terrorists make the leaders martyrs and raid cities... etc.

But, that beheading better damn well get as much, or more attention than pictures of humiliation and abuse.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Who cares about war? Haven't you guys seen the new Zelda video?

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

lmfao, dare any of you insult me when I call this place "just a gaming forum."

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

:rofl:

My god, this place is full of comedy this afternoon!

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

The discussion about Abu Graif went several pages before it was closed... an American is beheaded with a knife in a process that took over 30 seconds and the discussion about it degrades into humor in 5 posts.

Thank you all for proving my point.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Strangler I undertstand what your talking about, and I'm against the media in it's full.. It's trying to make "News" when in actuality all it does is skip the stores that would be considered news and jump straight to the terrible side.


But as far as common sense goes I had a drill sgt. that once told me "Common sense is not so common." So..


I say to everyone that is bickering and bitching about IRAQ, sure be against the war but support our troops. It's not their fault that the war is going on, They give orders we follow.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Well...When you post something like this on a gaming forum right as some of the most interesting stuff was being announced at E3, did you expect any different? Believe it or not, some people are more apathetic about the war than anything else.

I hate it that US soldiers are being killed, but this is what we wanted right? This is making our nation and the world a better place, right? So, some of those who have gone overseas have been killed, yep, that is what happens in war. I was about as apathetic about the Iraqi torture photos as I am about the supposed beheading of the U.S soldier. People die, whether it's a humane death or inhumane, does it matter? Of course it's a terrible thing, and it's why I disagree with war in the first place, but there's nothing to be done once a war starts. We probably don't even know about some of the more terrible offenses that have been commited on both sides, so I can't believe that the torture photos or this video are the worst things that have happened.

I suppose my point is that you certainly can't get a good judgement on people in general when you base your results on what has occured in a gaming forum. The media personally has no effect on me. I will not be outraged by anything that comes out of this war, no matter how horrible because the word "war" makes bad news redundant.

Edit: My mistake, US civilian, not soldier. Doesn't change my general view though.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Those who commited the act to the American civilian are just a small few, and do not represent all Iraqis/Iraqi rebels.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Just remember the Media is going to focus on the bad more than the good, because it makes more interesting and better stories (usually). And usually during a war, or soon there after, its only the bad stuff going on in the media. Did you notice that towards the beginning of the war on Iraq, that the American media was focusing mainly on "How good this will help out the economies" and "The war on Terrorism must be stopped"...But now that it is remotely over they are focusing on " The brutality of American soldiers" and "Why is no progress being made?" (dont reem me...not my opinion)

The media will always look for a fresh new story, in a few months, or weeks they will be focusing on how good america is doing in Iraq again, because these stories will get old. And thus the vicious cycle of Patriotism and self-hate starts all over again..

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

An American being beheaded is terrible. But so is mistreating the Iraqi soldiers. Stuff like that isn't right no matter who does it.

I think it's a damn shame that anybody has to die be they civilian or soldier.

This war hasn't helped anyone out, really. Iraqis will probably hate Americans more than ever now that so many civilians over there have died.

This started out as a war on terror and turned into an invasion of a country.

Sure, Hussein is gone but I'm sure that not long from now, some new dictator will come into power and wreck up the place. Why this greatly concerns me is that this new dictator may have a score to settle with America because of all the damage that has been done.

Most people in iraq have lost family members in this war. Because of this there will be a lasting bitterness and hatred from the Iraqi people for decades to come.

I don't think the Iraqis wanted America in there in the first place. You can't help someone unless they want to be helped.

The war should have stayed against the terrorist organisations. If you turn around and invade a country, things are only going to get messy.

But back to the original point, I'm just as disgusted by an American prisoner being mistreated or killed as I am by Iraqi prisoners being mistreated or killed. It's equally bad no matter who it happens to.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

GameMaster this is an example of why you don't close unresolved topics, just let them die. Speaking from experience as both a mod and a person who likes to argue into the deep hours of the night.

It's a soldiers job to defend there country to the death... I personaly would much rather see a soldier die than someone who is not set up to defend himself. Everybody is eventualy going to die... soldiers chose to risk dying an honerable death by defending what they think is right. If it wasn't for people going out and dying for what they believe is right, we wouldn't be here.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Oh I know, The Game. I am in fact more appauled by civilian death.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

I found out a site that had the video and i checked it out. That was just f*cked up. Utterly f*cked up.:(

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Jonbo showed me the site too... That is a slow painful, and f***ed up way to die.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Jonbo showed me the site also, that movie was terrible.

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Those civilians shouldn't be over there in the first place and they are the representatives of the biggest THEAVES in the entire world. It doesn't make the killing just, but stop trying to portray those victims as completely innocent, because they are far from it.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

I had a thought when I woke up this morning... "innocent" people get killed every day here by people within this country. Where is the daily head count on that? How "out of the ordinary" is terrorist attacks and murders in Iraq?

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

There was a 5 minute story on the beheading on CBC last night. It sucks for his parents to have to watch their son die.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Are you kidding me? Did you even do any research into the story of the guy who was beheaded? He volunteered his expertise because he felt he could go over there and help rebuild Iraq after the conventional war was over. But instead of actually basing any of your opinions on facts you'd rather create your own fiction and attempt to stain the memory of these people who put their lives on the line EVERY DAY to rebuild a nation for people who are trying to KILL THEM. You sentiments and uneducated and disgust me. If you actually are even attempting to defend the people who lopped off that poor man's head in the slightest, you are a horrific human being and deserve to be drug into the street and beaten publicly. That would make you worse than the scum that spit on soldiers when they came back from Vietnam.

Ever notice that liberals always care about the humanity of everyone else exept their own American people? I find that disturbing.

You also keep saying how the US and its companies are THIEVES (not THEAVES). Please back that up with one shred of evidence of how companies brought over by the US or the US itself has stolen one ounce of oil or land from the Iraqi people. If this sounds like you've heard it before, its because you have. I ask for evidence whenever people accuse the US or its supported companies of stealing. Somehow no one can ever find it though :rolleyes:

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

U.S. steals 80% of reconstruction fund

Sounds a bit like thievery to me.

If you want other people to give sources, you better damn well use reliable sources to back up your arguments. You never provide sources for your arguments.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Hah. Okay, even if they did steal from Iraq, it's not any different from what they're used to. Wasn't it Saddam who used his own country's earnnings to build his army to fight an eight year war with Iran, and invade Kuwait? That also sounds a bit like thievery to me.

I do not doubt the credibility of that article, because wether it happened or not, I couldn't care less.

Suppose you should backtrack into the older topics where facts and proof was given? He has given proof many times before.

And no offense guys, but I will trust the word of The Strangler before I trust the word of a 16 year old kid. Although I'd like to see what he has to say in regards to Dylflon's post.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

I'm 17 :p.

The problem with arguing about things like the war on Iraq is that no matter how many sources are put forth, nobody will ever change their opinion.

Most of the time I've said things they were opinion based and I stated that they were opinion based. I don't post things as facts if I don't know them for sure. But even if I post what I think or my two cents (or if anyone else does it for that matter) people persist on tearing them apart.

I'd like you to notice that I do not attempt to "destroy" The Strangler's views or opinions. I respect his right to have them regardless of whether or not I agree with them. But if I say something about it me not believing so many civilians should have died, I get attacked.

Now, in arguments about the war on Iraq, the people arguing break down into two groups:

1. People who support the war

2. People who oppose the war

Nobody can win an argument because when it comes to the war on iraq virtually any argument is opinion based.

Example: "The Iraq war is good because Saddam was a bad guy."

"No, it is bad because civilians are dying."

These aren't facts. They are opinions. When it comes to these arguments, people from group 1 completely disregard anything anybody from group 2 has to say and vise versa. It's a lot like arguing about religion.

That's why nobody can win these arguments.

When I talk about Iraq, I won't try to take your opinions and rip them to shreds. I will only offer my opinion. I won't ask for sources and I won't argue about semantics.

In these debates people will have varying opinions.You should respect them rather than attack them.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

I agree with Dylflon.. The Strangler always asks everyone else for proof, yet he provides none. I'm not trying to get him angry here or anything, but if you look back, he has no real proof, he just rants about "what might happen" and things like that. And just because Dylflon is 17 doesnt mean he doesnt know anything.

So Crono, if the Strangler said he could fly in one of his o-so-famous rants, would you believe him? No, you wouldnt believe him, because common sense tells you not to.

You guys get all uppity over what other people have to say, Your just hypocrits. Asking for proof, yet giving very very very little. Telling everyone else they are wrong. dont you think there is a chance that the Strangler is ever wrong? Yet he has never admitted it. And the Strangler,if you are so smart, how come your not writing novels and books on Science and Math and stuff.

[Sarcasm] Man Strangler, if i was as smart as you are, i would totally tell people off all the time nomatter what they say[/end Sarcasm]

Your just supremely patriotic, and you cant stand people saying TRUTHS about the "good 'ol" U.S.A. I feel the same, i get mad when people talk bad about Canada, but if im wrong i admit it, and i also dont blow up at everyone who says something i dont agree with....and if you continue to blow up at people over the internet this easily, i suggest looking into councelling..

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

This is off-topic and not directed at anyone in particular, but when you want to say "you are", you write it as "you're" not "your." "You're a good guy." "Your face is disgusting." I've just seen it so much on this forum, it makes me cringe a bit. Not trying to be a grammar nazi, but this is one of those things that is not that difficult.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

I admit that war is bad because it takes the lives of the innocent, but our world has been built on the blood of people.

The war in Iraq is just another direction that the world is moving into... just as every other major war to happen. Anti-war people can go on as long as they want, but countries will always want to expand their influence. It's human nature... which is why I've come to the conclusion that being anti-war is useless.

Also the U.S. protects the modern world, if not for them, millions of lives would have been lost these past decades.

But oh well...... I am just glad that I do not live in Iraq.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

See, now talk about ignorance. They're trying to rebuild a nation that we blew the piss out of, that was in a sorry state already because United States greed put an evil man in power. I know he was an independent worker, but that makes absolutely zero difference to the Iraqi people. We've given the Iraqi's plenty of reasons to want to kill us, and even though we know exactly what pisses of Arabs most, we continue to do it because we're greedy. You were right in the other thread about Islam and the west not exactly mixing, but why do you insist on trying to change them simply because we have the military might to do so. Let them be. Our society is as backwards to them as theirs is to us.

This country can't swallow its pride ever. EVER. That's what pisses off the rest of the world the most. We knew that Saddam was evil, and we gave him WMDs anyway. Why wasn't that conservative led US government concerned with Iraq's liberation? If we would have admitted some past ****ups maybe we could have gotten a LARGE international force together and put some pressure on Saddam, then, when he still refused to back down, the rest of the world would have said "Ok, go get him, then when you're done, we'll help you pick up the pieces."

And though the majority of my comments about the old men that put this war together being war hungry hawks who just wanted to “play with their toys in the sand” were meant as tongue in cheek inflammatory, I’m beginning to wonder. Go read the article on Rumsfeld this week in Newsweek, or, better yet, look at the violence in Iraq. It’s much lower in UK controlled areas, The sections of falujia (**** the spelling, you know what I mean) that are controlled by the Brits are less hostile because the British aren’t as arrogant. They let the Iraqi’s have their space.

Hate breeds hate, and it really seems that the higher ups in the United States military have a supreme hatred and bloodlust. We built this Nintendo army and they’ve just got to use it. No one should be surprised at the pictures that have been released this week. Unless you’re drunk, or insane, there’s a certain paradigm shift that every human must undergo before they are able to intentionally kill another human, it’s a horrid thing, and these people celebrate it. That is truly disgusting.

Ever notice how conservatives always place more value on the lives of Americans and American allies. We're cared for already. "God Bless America" what a joke. If there is a God, she has already blessed America more than any other country in the entire world.

Well, since you're so worried about the United States, how about the fact that every single defense contract ever signed in the history of the United States is a ****ing joke. Forget about stealing from Iraqi's, how about stealing from Americans. $700 and some odd million over charged by Halliburton to the United States government (money which the United States will NEVER see because long time Dick Cheney bosom buddy Justice Antoine Scalia refuses to recluse himself from the case. This bull**** as well as similar bull**** has been going on for quite awhile.

I also love how Conservatives can be selectively naive. Guess what, if Democrats were bombing Iraq, they'd be stealing too, and that would be DEAD WRONG. The fact that liberals would do the same ****ing thing doesn't make it write in my book (awful pun) and it shouldn't make it right to you either, because you know goddamn well that the Americans over there are profiting through any means necessary. Sources aren't needed to prove that the US is stealing

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

I think you just answered a bunch of people's questions. If Iraqi's are trying to KILL THEM, then should they really be there?

Iraq is a mess, and will be for quite some time. How about America trains some Iraqi people to rebuild? This would take longer, but would be better for Iraqis in the long run. Wouldn't that make more sense? Oh wait, then big American companies wouldn't get the big money contracts to rebuild Iraq. Forgot about that.

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Okay.... i know this is pointless and arrogant.....but hey Strangler, didnt you say that nobody thought like me :p

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Dyflon, thanks for the information. I wish you would have posted the BBCNews article rather than the rather inflammatory Insider version of events, but it is money that is legitimately missing, and it should be looked into. I'm not ashamed to admit it, I might be wrong about this and if I am that is sad and needs to be corrected immediately.

As for those that claim I never cite any evidence, thats laughable. Remember the London Telegraph article I cited? Just recently, the news story on Mr. Berg having his head lopped off? I also actually watch the news from CNN to FoxNews and relay all of it. Now not everything I state has a link associated with it, but I have been posting here for several years and I believe I have developed a track record of honesty and truth. I'm not saying I can't be wrong or that there are things that I don't know, but when I state the situation surrounding the broken UN regulations by Saddam, I should hope you would KNOW this as it was all over the news when the war began.

And Stonecutter, you still attempt to justify the beheading of a US citizen in retaliation for the humiliation of Iraqi prisoners of war. In no way does that correlation make any sense AT ALL. If the US soldiers had raped and then shot the Iraqi prisoners, then I could see where you're coming from. But you're comparison is rediculous and quite offensive. And you say that Conservatives don't care about anyone other than Americans and I have to disagree. We just have a more broad sense of it. Liberals tend to look at specific examples of pain and suffering, and scream bloody murder, while I tend to look at the 1.5 million killed by Saddam and think that the Iraqi people are better off without him, which by the way the latest polls in Iraq STILL think that they are better off without him too (that was taken from a CNN broadcast). And by the way, you still say that we blew their country to hell... did you pay attention to the war? AT ALL?? It was probably the most humane war that has ever been fought in modern times.

EDIT: And I keep on hearing people harping on Haliburton this and Haliburton that... 1) Haliburton is one of a handful of companies in the world that does the type of work that is needed in Iraq and I believe the only US one (I am not sure about that, though). 2) They don't even have the most lucrative contract in Iraq. 3) Why shoudln't the US spent its money of US companies? We're spending 80 Billion over there, not anyone else. Has the US overspent on contracted companies? Most likely, but that happens on domestic contracts as well its very much on purpose. After all, it saved the US from the Great Depression at the beginning of WW2. I'm going to do some extra research into Haliburton, though, as when there is so much smoke there is most likely fire.

Joeiss, the US has been trying to train Iraqi's to rebuild their country and their military and they keep quitting. (Sorry I don't have a link for this, but I hope you would have heard about 50% of the Iraqi soldiers quitting and the instance when they refused to fight). Also, foreign help in rebuilding has been a staple of post war activities since WW2, and a very successful one at that. Both Japan and Germany were occupied and rebuilt very successfully by the Allies, and in fact became economic powerhouses to rival the US at points afterwards.

Typhoid, please note that while these people may actually agree with you, they also actually bring something to the table in their arguments. Try that sometime.

By the way, I'm glad to see people doing research and looking up information in print of the media now. Looks like my teaching theory is paying off.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Well, according to people who have seen some of those unreleased images, US soldiers have raped iraqi prisoners.

And we've seen video of Marines shooting defenseless Iraqis, do you really believe that no prisoners have died at the hands of Americans?

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

That video is a joke. It was obviously edited and gives no frame of context as to the events surrounding the shooting. And the interview with the soldier involved was HILARIOUSLY edited, BTW.

As for the Iraqi prisoners being raped, I'll have to see the pictures to believe them, and even if any Iraqi soldiers were killed in American hands 1) They were Iraqi soldiers, not civilians 2) There is absolutely no evidence that it happened. I still cannot BELIEVE that you are defending the beheading of that civilian considering what we know right now, and you lean on speculation to do so. Thats honestly disgusting, IMO.

As for Halliburton, I'm leaning towards your opinion in that matter.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...24/80648.shtml

Keep in mind that this is coming from conservative news source also. It talks about how Halliburton has done business with Libya and Iran while still receiving public funds from the US. Thats awful. This article is prior to 9/11/01, and I'd like to see if this changed afterwards, but even so its still awful.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Can someone post the video?

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

Of the execution?


I can't comprehend how you guys want to see that.

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Actually, its probably only me who wants to see it, and i want to see it to see if it actually is doctored and edited.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

I'll PM you the site. I dont feel the need to publicly put the site on GT because of the nature of the video.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

http://www.thenausea.com/elements/us...q%20murder.wmv

I'd like to see your evidence as to why that was edited. Seeing as how you always request such evidence from me.

http://www.thenausea.com/elements/us...%20killing.wmv


That second video is footage from a Apache attack helicopter. Three Iraqi's are killed, the third one killed after having been wounded, which is a major No-no. My point here is simply to illustrate the complete lack of restraint our soliders show when using force as it was obviously not necessary to kill that third solider.

The thing is, if you really want to be cold blooded about it, from a purely strategic viewpoint, a wounded solider is a far larger burden for an enemy than a dead soldier. You saw what those rounds did to that car on the left side of the screen, you can't tell me that Iraqi would have been fighting the fight anymore after being hit by even one of those. As a dead man, he's nothing, as a living wounded man, he is going to be cared for by the enemy, which is a waste of resources.

By the way
 

.

Re: By the way
 

The first video with that interview is very obviously edited, lol. even I picked that up.

And Strangler, I have no knowledge about this at all, but I was trying to refer to regular Iraqi citizens, not just soldiers. Put money into education. Teach them some trades. Help them help themselves.

Re: A Little Perspective in Iraq
 

The thing is, i think that they will refuse or revolt against any help that the US gives. Because they have been brought up in such a way to do so. You cant tell them to change their mind and way of doing things in a second.

EX. If you wre born and raised into Christianity or Catholosism, and all of a sudden your country is "invaded" and Jews start trying to help you because you live different then they do, of course your going to be pissed off. You wont go against your beliefs because someone else said to.


And by saying this im not implying that the US is trying to convert the Iraqis or anything like that.