GameTavern - Iraq

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So, we've been there for ages, we discovered that there never were any Weopans of mass distuction to begin with, and it seems all we've accomplished is making everyone, including the Iraqi people mad at us (Americans), and we gave the Taliban more power...

I thought this was an intersting article

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/101803A.shtml

what do you guys think... about the article and about Iraq in general.

holy sh!t, that is one long article...can anyone summerize it for me please, i just woke up and i don't feel like reading so much :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitana85

I agree with most of what the guy is saying they really need to use a bottom up approach in rebuilding the country, and the admin needs to stop being so full of pride and admit that they made a mistakes and think up of a proper policy. I really don't think that the adminstration is being fair to the troops or the troops families. Alot of this would not be happening if post war planning was done properly.

I think it's funny that Bush has no plans of going into North Korea when they know that Korea has weapons of mass destruction. But he went into Iraq.

Now why would bush go into Iraq? Hmmmm.

This is just my opinion, but I really feel the Administration was using Iraq as a way to increase Bush's popularity but it backfired majorly.

If we do find solid evidence that Sadaam did have WMD's, then good for Bush. But it shouldn't have taken so long to find them.

But I never felt threatened by Sadaam. Bush keeps trying to say he was a threat to America, but yet I never felt threatened. I feel more threatened by North Korea and yet Bush isn't trying hard enough.IMO

Oh god, if only gekko was back...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

Oh god, if only gekko was back...

lol, jeses christ this would turn into a 6 page argument within hours

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

Oh god, if only gekko was back...

Why has he left?

He's at boot camp or something... and if Geeko decides to post here intellegently, on either side of the issue, that would be great... if not, well, I mod this forum....

Okay, I don't know who gekko is but myself I'm in the army and if Gekko Joined the army kudos to him.. I didn't support what we were doing in the first place but now that we went there I do support it now. I think that saddam should have been taken care of ages ago. And that even if there are no weapons of mass destcuction this time that him killing his own people is enough for me in my opinion to get him out of power. That and I support our troops in full. :)

i hate you all, why wont anybody sumarize it for me?!

happydude, just read the first sentence of each paragraph

And then post it for me because my works server blocked that IP :(

bah, too many paragraphs, too lazy, i'll just leave this topic alone :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylflon

I think it's funny that Bush has no plans of going into North Korea when they know that Korea has weapons of mass destruction. But he went into Iraq.

Now why would bush go into Iraq? Hmmmm.

Saddam's an evil bastard and a potential threat (well, not as much anymore). Give him his psyche and the fact that he was ruling a nation sitting on about a trillion dollars worth of black gold, and he starts looking like a reasonable target.

Despite being in practically a third world country, it was "possible" for Saddam to have the WoMD, even if not probable. Controlling oil put Saddam into a power position where he could buy some weapons when needed. Oh yeah, and did I mention he is an evil bastard? ¦¬Þ

North Korea may claim to have Nukage... if they don't, they aren't a threat, and if they do... we better not make them a threat. Y'see, if Saddam really did have the WoMD, the odds of him using them in combat when we hunted him down was slim, as he'd get himself even more killed. Instead of hiding out like he is now, he'd've gotten himself bombed to hell. I guess somebody knew this and took a chance.

North Korea, on the other hand, wants us to know that they have the capability to nuke. Well, if that's the case... then what would keep them from using the nukes if we attacked them? There's a chance that the validity of their claims is being investigated but not televised. Also, North Korea doesn't plan on launching those nukes if we're not already attacking, as a launched nuke would provoke an attack and get them all killed needlessly. What it appears is that NK is wanting to bait the US into bribing them to not use their WoMD.

I back the fact that Bush drove Saddam out of Iraq. I wish they could have guaranteed Saddam's death... but getting him out of control was a good step. Getting rid of the threat to the United States will take steps. In some ways, the seizing of Iraq has put the US back, but in others, they've advanced. In all, I feel the Iraq "war" was for the better. I may be wrong though/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace195

Gekko joined the Marines. :marine:

So... are you looking for this to turn into a debate or one of those cute topics where everyone states their own opinion?

Bond....

I'm looking for people to read the article by Senator Kennedy, and to thoughtfullyy reply based on facts...

I am looking for peoples assessments of the FACTS, I am NOT looking for peoples own opinions.

Gekko isnt here....

Hehehe...I could start argueing about it, and he wouldnt be here to shove everything back down my throat.

Meh...Ive danced this dance before. Im not going to get involved in this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitana

I am looking for peoples assessments of the FACTS, I am NOT looking for peoples own opinions.

Starting a topic like this, and makeing the subject "Iraq" is like asking people to come in with guns and start shooting each other. This might be interesting if we havnt done it so many times before. I already know all the arguements. There is nothing to be found here. I know that you want "just the facts", but that is a bit naive. When it comes to this, everyone wants to yell and argue about it.

Im not going to diss your topic, its possible that you might get what you want, but I wouldnt bet on it.

Edit: Opinions are like ass's...*nearly* everyone has one.

Quote:

Surely, in this day and age, at the beginning of the 21st century, we do not have to re-learn the lesson that every colonial power in history has learned. We do not want to be – we cannot afford to be – either in terms of character or in terms of cost – an occupier of other lands. We must not become the next failed empire in the world.

The Administration seeks to write a new history that defies the lessons of history. The most basic of those lessons is that we cannot rely primarily on military means as a solution to politically-inspired violence. In those circumstances, the tide of history rises squarely against military occupation.

The British learned that lesson in Northern Ireland. The French learned it in Algeria. The Russians learned it in Afghanistan and are re-learning it every day in Chechnya. America learned it in Vietnam, and we must not re-learn it in Iraq.

Our men and women in uniform are the finest in world, and all Americans admire and honor their ability and their courage. In Iraq, they are now being forced to do an extraordinary job they were never trained for, and they are doing it under extreme and unpredictable circumstances.

Even with the best forces in the history of the world, our military cannot succeed if the mission is not achievable, if they are viewed as occupiers, and if we do not have a clearly defined and realistic strategy.

That's good stuff right there, but then there's this.

Quote:

In recent weeks, in Massachusetts, at Fort Stewart in Georgia, and at Walter Reed Hospital, I have met with American troops who fought in Iraq. I am profoundly moved by the price they pay to serve our country, and profoundly impressed by their professionalism and commitment. They are willing to endure great hardship and great danger in Iraq to complete their mission. But they want to know when their mission will be complete, and when they will be able to come home.

They are resourceful and strong. But more and more they are frustrated -- especially by the faceless nature of the threat. Individuals intent on killing Americans are firing from behind the cover of crowds, to provoke our soldiers into firing back on civilians. Many of our troops say they were never trained to be police officers or to fight a guerilla war.

They want to help the Iraqi people. But the increasing casualties make them feel unsafe. They want to respond militarily to attacks. But they often don't know who the attacker is.

They tell me that at first, their convoys were welcomed. But after time, children began to throw rocks at them, and then came the bullets. They tell me that far too many in Iraq believe we are there to take their oil, and that we will stay forever.

I'm sure if Gekko were here he'd say that these soliders never said those things, and that if they did, then they shouldn't be soliders at all, because they're traitors. I'm not going to try and convince you that, that is true, because if you don't believe it now, you never will.

But I will say "I told you so."

Everything EVERYTHING that could have gone wrong, has gone wrong, and the current administration cannot afford to admit that they were wrong, and we're just going to fall deeper and deeper into this black hole that is swallowing american lives and american tax dollars with absolutly nothing to show for it.

I cannot express how sick I feel when I think back at the 2000 election and realize that I actually supported Bush at the time.

Bond, or Random, or Gekko (if he sees this) can feel free to rip me a new one, because I know I'm not going to change your minds, but for everyone who might still be trying to decide if the decision to go to war was a good one really should read this article.

Sorry for rambling on like that, I really don't have any way to end this.

Anyone who's not going to automaticly dismiss something with a slightly liberal stance would do well to read this article about the WMD situation and how the sanctions were actually doing their jobs.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/977254.asp?0dm=C1BQO

Quote:

Everything EVERYTHING that could have gone wrong

I agree with you and yet disagree. I agree that bush is a moron and should have never gone there in the firstplace but I do again think that we should have done it right the first time IE. Desert Storm.. We shouldn't of had to go back and finish up the bush vendetta. I don't think its a black hole I think it's more of hole that will take a long time to get out of. I personally think that since we are there we should stay there until we finish what we meant to do.

[edit] oh yeah and why I quoted that.. Murphy's law rox

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitana85

First of all, we haven't been in Iraq for ages. Rebuilding an entire country in the most volatile region of the world isn't a small task. What do France and Japan have in common? They were both rebuilt by the United States, and are both successful Democratic countries. The time we have been in Iraq is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

We have not discovered that there were no weapons of mass destruction to begin with. Saddam did produce thousands of chemical and biological agents. The burden of proof was not on the United States to prove Saddam had those weapons. The burden of proof was on Saddam to prove that he destroyed those weapons. Saddam was also in violation of countless other U.N. mandates that don't even involve weapons of mass destruction. Just remember there are hundreds of bunkers under Iraq that are basically impenetrable to any conventional weapon.

Now, a common misperception is that the majority of Iraqis are displeased. That is very untrue, the majority of Iraqis would much rather have a democracy than a totalitarian government. You simply see more of the angry Iraqis because the media feeds on bad things and likes to scare you. And the Taliban are in Afghanistan, not Iraq.

I would write more, but time is limited.

The mainstream thought here in Canada is that the Americans are being greedy and going for the oil, well, at least in the toronto area...dunno aboot BC and such

they should just let the soldiers come home already!!, and you know what the hell with bush as our president... he wants to give them sooooo much damn money and give them orders.... why the hell doesnt he just go over there and take the position as president.... god knows he would do a hell of alot better job over there then he has done for us... and i dont think they would argue... if they were to rebel against him, they could always shoot him, i dont think he would be as good of a hider as saddam is :P

I agree I back bush in the saddam thing but I think we should have assisinated him then moved in to take Iraq then put the Iraqi people in charge of their own lives :)