Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Michael Moore is being hailed by the media as a latter day muck raker who is exposing the hypocracy and insidiousness of the Republican party. The facts that he does not advertise is that he is in fact a hippocrit and a LIAR, and what drives me nuts is that no one seems to be challenging Moore's hyperbolic and often completely fictitious claims.

Hippocracy you say? Yes, Michael Moore wears jeans and flannels and directed a video by Rage Against the Machine in which a homeless man refused his winnings from a gameshow, but this is all a very calculated part of his public image. The fact is that Michael Moore lives in an apartment in New York that cost well over 1 MILLION DOLLARS. Hmm, you would think with all of his self righteousness he would practice as he preaches, right? Guess not.

Lies Lies Lies. In Bowling for Columbine Michael Moore references a Lockheed Martin plant near Columbine High School that makes missiles for the US military, and even insinuates that it helped cause the violence that took place there. Now if that weren't enough of a stretch, the FACT is that the Lockheed Martin plant he referenced does not make military missiles. It makes rockets for satellite launches. Once again, the truth never stopped Moore from pushing his agenda.

There are many more examples of his yellowest of yellow "journalism", but I won't reference them here. If you are interested you can visit the following sites:

http://www.moorewatch.com

http://bowlingfortruth.com/moore/online/patriotact.htm

Now there may be some truth in what Michael Moore spouts off in the propoganda he calls "documentaries", but the question becomes "how can I tell the difference?" When he blatantly lies again and again to force his agenda on the unsuspecting populace, how can we believe anything he says when half of it is exaggerration of out and out lies? In the end he only hurts the cause that he pretends to champion.

Be warned that moorewatch is a pretty right wing site that becomes a victim of its own passion at times, much like Moore, but many of the points are quite valid and can shed some light on Moore's "facts"

Bowling for Truth is an excellent site (from what I saw) and the link will take you to a fantastic article by Jonah Goldberg, who I am becoming a big fan of, debunking the negative theories about the Patriot Act. He's even been a guest on the popular and very left wing Daily Show with Jon Stewart. He's the kind of conservative that I wish the Republican party would endorse, then maybe I would actually become a Republican.

Hm. Give Moore some credit. He does raise a lot of great points whether or not you agree with what he does.

But don't polititians lie to push their agenda?
It's not like Michael Moore is the only one to do this (if in fact he is doing it)

And just because he has a nice house doesn't mean he's a monster of some kind.

But in closure, if he is lying to push an agenda, he's not the only one. the American government does it. The Canadian government does too. It's not uncommon. It's not like he's some sort of innovator in the field of lying to the masses.

I never said Moore was a monster, just a hippocrit and a liar. Moore likes to paint people with different views as monsters. I do not.

Do politicians lie? Sure. Does that excuse Moore? No. He pretends to be the champion of the truth, hence his TV shows name The Awful Truth, and talked about being a worker of "Non-Fiction in ficticious times" in his Oscar acceptance speech. How can we believe anything he says? If his points are based on LIES, then how valid are the points? The answer is they aren't. How can we differentiate the lies fom the truth? We can't.

His lies are very dangerous. More dangerous than you could imagine. He promotes using that awful cartoon in Bowling for Columbine as a SCHOOL SUPPLEMENT on his website, and even instructs TEACHERS HOW TO TEACH HISTORY WITH IT. Never mind that the cartoon is simplistic, promotes ignorance instead of intelligence and outright LIES os several occasions... did you know that the NRA was actually FOUNDED BY ABOLITIONISTS??? You wouldn't if you only saw his cartoon, the same one he wants taught in our schools.

His agenda is ignorance. He intentionally edits his material to prohibit ANY information that may show the other side of the coin. You are being manipulated and eating his bull**** with a spoon and loving it.

Check out the sites I posted, especially the one on the Patriot Act. You may never believe a word Moore says again. You'll find them enlightening and Moore's simplistic arguments increasingly insulting to your intelligence.

someone says something about one person, then the other person says the same thing back...

1: You're lying!
2: No, YOU'RE lying!
1: YOU'RE lying and I can prove it! *proof*
2: That proof is just bullpooey and you're lying and I can prove it! *proof*
1: THAT INFORMATION IS FALSE YOU LYING BASTARD!
2: ALL LIES!!
Both: I'LL CUT YOU!!!

And that, my friend's is the world of politics...

"From my cold dead hands!"




Bowling for Columbine made me laugh through parts of it.


The crazy soy farmer with the magnum under his pillow. ahhh,


but ya, some of it's bull****.

Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

I really like Michael Moore. It's always good to me to see someone who is outspoken and not afraid of politicians or the media.

I wish I could do something similar to Michael Moore in the future. I like being outspoken and not afraid of anyone.

But opinions/facts/lies about Michael Moore don't affect me. As long as he is outspoken, thats a + for me

Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

And your point would be we should just accept it? We should just sitr by while we are manipulated and fed bull**** like its a T-Bone steak? I'm afraid I'm not that quite cynical yet.

And bouncer, how can you tell what was bull**** and what wasn't? He made a documentary. A potrayal of the TRUTH. And he lied throughout. How are we expected to discern what is fact and what is fiction? We can't, and that his entire piece invalid.

Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

So as long as you're outspoken it doesn't matter what you say? He can just lie all he wants and it doesn't matter? Or is it as long as he's lying in favor of your ideals?

You know whats funny? What's NOT being taught in school. A lot of American schools are very selective about what they teach.

I was talking to GameMaster and his school isn't telling them a lot of things they should be telling them. Like how the French aiding the Americans during the American Revolution. And he wasn't taught about Russia's role in World War 2. He was also taught that the Natives were savages.

Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Jeez, I was never stating that if your outspoken and you only tell lies that I like the person. I was stating that Michael Moore's views are what I go for/believe in. So what if he lie's once in awhile. EVERYONE DOES.

You can bash Michael Moore all you want but it doesn't affect me. People lie all the time. People have their own views. Oh well.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

It's not lying "once in a while." Take a look at that website. Not very much in Bowling for Columbine is very trustworthy. In fact, you can't really take it as a documentary of anything except perhaps Michael Moore's ego.

And it does matter if he lies. A documentary is supposed to be true. The fact that it's called a documentary means that people use it as evidence.

What if Tom Brokaw were to get on NBC Nightly News one day and knowingly report a completely false or misleading story? Would you just shrug and say, "Oh well. Everybody lies once in a while"?

Strangler, you need to pull your head out of your government ass!!
 

Hmmm, reminds me of somebody

Re: Strangler, you need to pull your head out of your government ass!!
 

Gee, you respond to my posts, which state FACTS, by insulting me in the topic heading and then trying to divert the attention to someone else besides Moore. If you were implying that I have lied, prove it. It you are implying that the president lied, then you are simply trying to change the topic of an subject that you can't win.

Understand that it is people like YOU who give liberals a bad name. Liberalism was not a bad thing at its inception, but has become the social gestapo of the 21st century. "Agree with us or you are a bad human being". How silly. Come to your senses and realize that you are also a victim of your own passions. There ARE valid opposing points of view and everyone that disagrees is not an evil bastard. The "white knight" syndrome that liberals have developed is doing more harm to your cause than help.

My post had nothing to do with the government, and I even stated (I assume you actually read my post) that there are plenty of realistic arguments and for Michaels Moore's generic points of view. What I am saying is that Michael Moore has chosen to ignore all of these and go for sensationalistic bull**** because it allows him to afford a nice apartment. He is a political vampire sucking on your zealouness so that he can make himself rich, not to mention that his lies and deceit invalidate any point he is attempting to make. Lies and deceit that evidently many of his supporters are quick to ignore as long as he keeps spouting garbage that is of a like mind.

If you are a liberal, and against the 2nd amendment, please do what Michael Moore does not. Research. Find the facts. Don't just be arrogant enough to believe that what you think is happening is what is REALLY happening.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

A lot of newscasters are lying. Well...not by choice. But mainly they're just leaving things out. You watched the war in Iraq on American TV and they showed soldiers giving food and securing oil fields. But if you see and Al Jazheera news cast (as i did) you'd see American soldiers shooting families who didn't cooperate. I'm not saying that the American military is evil i'm just saying that this is hiw it played out and nobody in America really knew. I'm sure the media leaves things out from time to time. Do you think they're really going to show things on the news that makes your country look bad?

Re: Re: Strangler, you need to pull your head out of your government ass!!
 

Bah, look Strangler, who said I was liberal? See, I'm not like you, I don't see it all black in white and I don't put myself in one specific side. You say I give liberals a bad name? Well I could say the same thing about you and the Conservatives. I'm pretty sure that some of the stuff you said is true, but even if Michael Moore's stuff isn't all perfectly correct, I'm pretty sure most of it is. The right also has people like that, and you know it.

I'm not going to argue your points in this thread, because I'm sure you have more information and more knowledge than me, but I dare you to come to another forum and post this. It's not a liberal forum, it's pretty well balanced, and there is some pretty good posters in there from both the left and the right that could argue with you better than me. There is a lot of quality disscutions in there and I'm pretty sure you would like it. So what do you say? Wanna give it a try, or do you want to keep those kind of posts in here and get no substantial answers?

Anyways, I hope I see you there.

Sincerely,

http://www.rajahwwf.com/forum/index.php? in the off topic section.

Re: Re: Re: Strangler, you need to pull your head out of your government ass!!
 

LOL!!!! I almost passed out when I read that... =-D

And how do I see things in black and white? I said there were valid arguments for gun control. If I were a die hard conservative I would say that there weren't. Meanwhile you prefer to just hurl insults at anything and anyone that dissagrees with you.

As for your website, I'll see you there. I keep forgetting liberals can only attack in packs so that they can continue to validate one another.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Have you been looking at those websites at all? Yes, newscasters leave things out. But Michael Moore did a lot more than leave a few facts out. Many of the scenes in his documentaries are actually staged. Are you going to start arguing to me that newscasters stage their interviews?

Or how about this one: at one point, Michael Moore showed a speech by Charlton Heston. If you look closely at the footage, you'll notice that his shirt suddenly changes color partway through the speech. Why's that? Because Michael Moore took parts of two speeches that were delivered several months apart and spliced them together, thus making it look like Charlton Heston had said something he never actually did. Go ahead. Look at the video yourself. Are you now going to argue that deceptively splicing footage together is no worse than leaving out a few facts in your reporting? As you said, newscasters are lying "not by choice." So are you going to tell me that Michael Moore kind of accidentally spliced together footage to create a non-existent speech that just happens to help his argument?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

The problme with arguing about things like these is that not everyone will ever agree. We could argue forever. I think Micheal's Bowling for Columbine was a great movie. I did learn a lot about gun control in America. I'm not saying that changing facts is right but he did present quite a few disturbing facts. I was amazed at the number of gun murders in America.

And I really liked the parts about Canada. =-D

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

ok...i have no clue what the f*ck all this is talking about, who the hell is micheal moore and wtf is going on?!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

*sigh*

Never mind. You're not even talking about what you were talking about in your first post. In these cases, I would call you just plain willfully blind. But never mind that. I agree that we're not going to get anywhere with this, but it's not because we have mutually incompatible opinions. You're not even informing yourself on the issue.

For example, did you know that some of the Canada sections from Bowling for Columbine were staged?

But I suppose you'll just avoid the issue and go off to talk about something we weren't even talking about before.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

So you learned a lot from facts that have been changed...
:wtf:

...

*brain explodes*

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

*clears throat*

anyone mind answering me please?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Michael Moore is a reknowned filmmaker who claims to be a documentarian, and even won the oscar for Best Documentary at last years Academy Awards for Bowling for Columbine. His other works were Canadian Bacon, Roger and Me and the short lived Bravo series "The Awful Truth". He holds a lot of sway with the left wing and has been acclaimed as a modern day muck raking journalist who exposes corporate and right wing conspiracies and "evil".

The sad truth is that he is a propoganda artist of the highest degree. He has lied in his works, staged events that he claims were non-fiction, and creatively edits what he does film to suit his agenda. He then has the audacity to proclaim in his Oscar acceptance speech that he is a teller of truth in "ficticious times." If these are ficticious times, he is a huge part of that fiction.

If you want the real deal on his work and just how manipulating he can be, rent his movie Bowling for Columbine... fully absorb it... and then thoroughly read bowlingfortruth.com hitting every link you can find. You won't have to take my word for it if you do.

RANZID: I registered over at Rajah, and I still haven't received my confirmation e-mail so I can get started teaching your friends the path of sober thinking. Any idea whats going on?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

I watched the "A Brief History of America" clip, LOL. Moore's "brief history" on the KKK is so off it's ridiculous.

Marilyn Manson was right on the fact though that the media trys to make you afraid.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

thank you...i still only partially get it, but i don't care anymore, its not that important :p

+rep anyway :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

The media wants ratings. They take precedent over anything else. Blaming Mansom for murders when the murderers actually HATED his music is just one example.

I referenced the Brief History in my earlier post. Moore claims that there is a connection between the NRA and KKK. Never mind that the NRA was founded by union abolishionists. Once again, facts don't matter to him.

He also alludes to the Pilgrims being irrationally afraid of the British when they fled to the new world. The fact is that at the time Britain had demanded that everyone would "convert to the Church of England or die." Puritans were being jailed and executed at the time, but once again facts don't matter much to Moore.

I highly urge that everyone reads Bowlingfortruth.com, even if you are skeptical of the facts I have posted. the have an EXCELLENT dissection of the entirety of movie as well as the horribly inaccurate Brief History of America cartoon. If you go in with an open mind that site will open it more.

Wow. I don't agree with what you guys are saying, okay? I'm not WILLFULLY BLIND and I did inform myself by reading those sites. But becasue I disagree with you ,you'll probably call me stupid. And you guys have a problem with political srguments. I'm willing to see things from other points of view. But you (The Strangler and possibly Xantar) will just yell at me for saying what I believe which is mainly why i didn't argue with you. I didn't want another huge fight. But I don't agree with everything that you're saying. Now, I have read the info on the sites and have re-evaluated my beliefs and though what you say makes sense but I still don't agree with you. You can yell at me and throw your "facts" at me but I still won't care. Just like you won't be persuaded to see things from my POV i haven't been swayed to see things from yours. People of your political party spout lies and bull**** just like you say Michael Moore does. No matter what political party someone is in, some people will think they're full of ****. That is the problem about arguing about politics.

Bowlingfortruth is a pretty good site...and I loved Bowling for Columbine after I walked out of theater, but some of the things they pointed out obviously make me a bit unsure now. I definetly won't take this move quite as seriously any more, even though it's still enjoyable to watch. Though I think sometimes the author of the site may misconstrue some of Moore's scenes and act like they are implying much worse lies or untruths then they really do. For instance, when the author is examining the native american scene in the "Brief History of America" cartoon he says, "We are told, regarding what the Pilgrims did to the Indians: 'They killed them all' and then 'You would think that wiping out an entire race of people would calm em down.' That's 2 lines telling us that Native Americans were made extinct by the Pilgrims. Someone is lying here. Either Michael Moore, or the 1990 U.S. Census, that says there are 1,878,285 Native American Indians in the United States. Someone should send a memo to these people and notify them that they don't exist."

Now...I feel that this point is a bit ridiculous. It's obvious that exaggeration is used, and if anyone actually believes that all Native Americans were made extinct by the Pilgrims. He acts like the public wouldn't be able to point that out for themselves. Does anyone honestly believe that Moore thinks that no Native Americans are alive anymore? C'mon...

Another part I had a problem with is during the examination of the "What a Wonderful World" montage. The author states, "So Moore paints a picture of the US plopping bombs on Iraq 'on a weekly basis' just cuz we feel like it - the reality is quite different. The point is about twisting the act of law enforcement into something that seems unjustified."

I may be wrong about this, but as far as I remember there wasn't necessarily this implication that they were "plopping bombs just cuz we feel like it"...Of course there is a reason for the bombings, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the bombings did in fact take place, which I believe may be the main point. Obviously every viewer will read this scene and statement in a different way, and I suppose I just took a different apporach in the examination some of these scenes...I mean, I disagree with a lot of the opinions the author gives on certain scenes, and believe that Bushnell ( I think that's his name) provides a similar sort of conservative spin on his agruments against Moore and the movie. Though he doesn't tell outright lies and he does expose Moore's which I applaud think is the most useful portion of the site. I could do without some of his analysis which seems a bit exaggerated at points.


Anyway, I haven't completley read through the site, but I think I get the gist of it...My overwhelming positive opinion of Moore has slipped a lot. I probably got caught up in my typical liberal, gun-control ways without wanting to see the truth. I suppose the main problem was that I thought I WAS seeing the truth, it is supposed to be a documentary right? That said, I don't need Michael Moore or anyone else to tell me that I don't agree with current gun control regulations. There's still something wrong when there are so many gun related homocides and deaths in the United States. I don't have the answer, and don't think Michael Moore does either (lies don't help), but the fact that my opinions on this movie and Moore have changed don't really affect my personal feeling about gun politics, which is most important to me.

I'm formally removing myself from this conversation.

And I do know that some "facts" were "not facts" but the rest of my points I still back up.

Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Exactly what do you back them up with? Candy?

BTW, I'm not Republican (which I pointed out in my first post) and Xantar is a liberal (I think), just not one of the hysterical scaremongering variety.

Germenator, I do agree that at times bowlingfortruth.com does exagerrate, and moorewatch can be even worse but they're by contributors so it goes from post to post. Your example of the piece on the Indians I noticed also and found it to be a bit offensive. While Moore is oversimplistic about his accusations, so is the site in that manor. Anyone who has heard of the trail of tears knows that the Native Americans were not treated well. I also don't agree with the authors assertions on Marilyn Manson's contribution to Columbine. In this he becomes a victim of his passion much like Moore.

Visiting those sites is much like watching the Fox News Channel. You can learn a lot that no one else will tell you, but you also have to take it with a grain of salt, or in Moore's case an 8 ball of heroin.

If you want a great, level headed sober opinion, Jonah Goldberg is your man.

Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

So right from the beginning, you decided to not outline your position and just tell us that lots of people spout bull**** (and by implication, Michael Moore's yellow journalism is okay)?

Look, I don't know if you realize it, but gun control is beside the point in this debate. We're talking about Michael Moore, not guns. The Strangler has already said that he sees some validity in Michael Moore's argument but that nonetheless he wants an argument grounded in reality.

So if you think you disagree with me on whether guns should be banned or whether there should be tougher laws, don't. Unless you've seen my posts from a few years ago, you don't even know what my position on gun control. But I'll tell you right now that I don't exactly share The Strangler's position on gun control. And moreover, we most certainly don't belong to the same party as you seem to imply.

So what is it you disagree with us about? Do you disagree about whether Michael Moore is lying? Or do you disagree about whether it's acceptable?

What exactly do you believe?

I'm looking back through your posts, and all I see is you continually repeating, more or less, that everyone lies. You never attempt to, for example, refute The Strangler's argument that Michael Moore shouldn't be trusted. In other words, all you've been doing is evading the issue. And that is why I accused you of being willfully blind. I can't think of another reason you would refuse so consistently to just debate with The Strangler about what he's actually talking about.

Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Post another retort and it'll be your 5000th post.

Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

LOL!! Talk about evasiveness and being willfully blind. Are you trying to prove Xantar's points?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Talk about how you should eat my ass.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Consider yourself broken.

*puts another notch in his war club*

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Damn. I have been defeated. You took me down a few pegs.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Wow Strangler, you broke a 17 years old on a video game forum. You're so cool.

BTW, what are you waiting to post this on the other board I told you about?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

Hey, breaking 17 year olds is one of my fanorite past times. I'm thinking about going pro next year.

I addressed the other website in an earlier post. I registered but haven't received my confirmation yet (as of midnight last night) and the site won't let me log on without it. Does it usually take this long?

Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

omfg... you would post that, wouldn't you?

First of all, realize that your source is GAMEMASTER.

I'm also an American, and I also took US History, but I actually remember ****!

The French aided the Americans in the American Revolution, if not for the French, we never would have gained freedom. The French allied us because they had quite a thing against the Imperial British.

The Russians... they lost masses of soldiers and civilians in both WWI and WWII. In WWII, they signed a peace contract with Hitler at the beginning of the war (and no, I don't want to remember it's name). Later, Hitler made the big mistake of invading Russia during its winter. Tough luck, Hitler.

We were taught that natives were savages as infants by freakin' cowboy movies, not by school. In US History, I was educated not by a movie, but by a textbook, that the Natives were honorable yet were pushed west countless times. Then there was the trail of tears with Andrew Jackson...


Next time you want to learn about the American Education system, ask a person who listened in class... not a random (well, that works against me) guy in a gaming forum.

Re: Big Fat Liar: Debunking Michael Moore
 

I don't get it, are you trying to insult the American Government, or are you trying to support Michael Moore? By your arguement, it's impossible to do both!

Pushing an agenda is a terrible thing... it's performed by the media in some occassions and often by political figureheads (including Moore). People want to influence the wolrd in whatever way they can. It's never the right way.. which is terrible, but that's what happens. All we can do is try to point out the wrongs that are done, as Strangler is attempting to do, in a gaming forum.

I don't respect Moore, as I don't respect anyone who covers the public with a shroud of lies to push their opinions and their reputation. By getting your attention and admiriation, Dylflon,people like Moore can find a way to succeed.

P.S. Excuse me for double posting, and also for picking on Dylflon. However, I feel that he could improve his evalutations... and there's a possibility that he can make his decisions much more "developed" ¦¬Þ