Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

:banana:

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

It isn't offcial yet, they're still investigating and identifying the bodies. They think its Saddam's sons.

Edit: Nope, you're right, I guess it is official now.

Thats good news, but it seems as though it was all in vain. We set the peoples of Iraq free, which is better than our primary goal, but the fact is, the reason Bush said we were going over there in the first place is a lie. Hes facing impeachment becuase he lied about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction.

But still, were accomplishing something better anyway.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

HAH! those bastards deserve it!

that'll teach them to kill inocent people...

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Saddam is probably going nuts right now. But yeah, I don't like the fact of people dying, but this is some good news...

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

He is not facing impeachment, that is ludicrous.

I would argue with you about the reasons why we went to war, but it's not worth it.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Arguing about political stuff is stupid (especially with teenagers) because there are basically 3 groups:

a. People who have their heads shoved way up the governments' ass
b. People who don't really care
c. People who try to take every government mistake and blow it out of proportion and bishidy bash it...

I, personally, enjoy bananas...

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Is your spoon too big also?

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

American soldiers have also killed innocent people. Their hands aren't any cleaner. But America did a great thing by freeing the Iraqis.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

MY SPOON IS TOO BIG!

I AM A BANANA!

ugh, gag me with a spoon

...

I mean umm... go US... kill those Iraqis...

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

damn rejects :p

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

I would also, but again, it's not worth it.

However, if you care to educate yourself, you can always ask.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

And we have a winner!

That pretty much sums up most political debates even beyond teens, but shush. :)

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

If you supported the war in the first place, but now don't because of the WMD thing, you're a moron. If it's only now that you realize that some of the stuff they were telling you just might not be completly true then you can't be helped. The government lies, deal with it.

This war was, and always has been about oil (Bush,) and displaying the might of the US military (Rumdsfeld.) Yeah, we really liberated the crap out of those poor bastards. I'm sure once Haliburton (oh yeah, that's Chaney) takes most of the government's money and pockets it the Iraqi people will be much better off.

But hey! At least gas is only $1.85 a gallon!

Last time I watched the news, which was like 2 nights ago, he was. Its not like they're going to impeach him tomorrow, but hes on grounds for impeachment. He said we were going over there to get rid of weapons of mass destruction. He ruined our aliance with France and most of the UN. And now the weapons are no where to be found. Tony Blair is in a bind right now because of the same thing.

I didnt support the war in the first place. I thought that the weapons of mass destruction thing was bull since the beginning. I mean, it was ridiculus! I was watching CNN, and the Bush administration said that if the UN weapons inspecters found weapons, they would attack and dissarm Saddam. Then they said that if they DIDNT find weapons of mass desruction, they would use that as proof that he was hiding them! So either way, we were going war, and that news report was enough to convince me that Bush had no idea if Saddam had weapons or not.

I think Bush would have gotten more support if he said the reason he was going over was to finish a job started years ago and to free the people of Iraq. His reasons could be that it was the humane thing to do and that it would prevent the spread of communism/dictatorships/tyranny.

But its the American's job in this world I guess, sticking our nose into places it doesnt belong. Look at Vietnam. We're trying to be the international police force, and its not working.

Oh well. :shakehead

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

He never was facing impeachment, never will be. You need to listen clearer to what it being said. Besides, you can't impeach Bush, because you can't link him to a crime. Presidents are always scape goats, but the truth is they only give the OK. Along the way his advisors will look at the intelligence, make decisions on the best course of action, and then brief the President. The President says OK, and it's done. Plus, everything the President said was written by someone else, and evaluated numerous times before the President even sees it, so it there was anything questionable that was being said, it would've been taken out. Speeches are checked much more closely in matters of national security.

Now if you believe in all that, there are no WMD, you are a moron.

Which is a clear sign that it is a partisan issue for you, and you wouldn't support Bush no matter what the reason.

Iraq is not communist. And Bush did say that, people didn't care. Many who support the war find it a good enough reason, then again, many who opposed the war had, and still have no idea what Saddam was actually doing. But we live in a selfish world, ending a oppressive regime is not a reason to go to war, because it doesn't affect Americans. For the same reason that until a bomb lands on your head, you could care less about WMD.

Who says we don't belong? People will support and oppose anything we do, so we might as well do the right thing. And in so many ways, Vietnam was successful.

I watched in on CNN, they said he was, Im not the original stater of the fact that he was on, once again, grounds of impeachment. I was just stating what I heard on the news. Tell them about the speeches and national security. And the way your putting it, the president is just the vessel of the words for the words of the people behind the scenes.

Incorrect. The reason I thought it was bull was because of his reasons for thinking they had the weapons. I didnt disagree with him just because hes a republican or whatever, I just didnt think we should go attack some country when we havent seen a scrap of evidence that they have them. On the contrary, the UN weapon inspectors couldnt find anything, and they still cant.

Your right, anything anyone does will have mixed opinions.

Vietnam was successful!? Thats the first time Ive heard that. Go to Washington DC, and stand in front of that wall, you know, the one with the names on it. The LONG list of names. And say that again, real loud, so people can hear you.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

I've read the articles that were written. Bush is not facing impeachment, and no one is currently trying to get him impeached. ATD.

You said you thought it was bull since the beginning, which means you didn't give him a chance. And next time pay more attention, the main arguments were over whether these weapons were a threat to America, not whether they had them. You would have to be blind to the obvious to believe that there are no WMD.

If that's the case, why not go look at the list of WWII casualties, or Revolutionary War casualties. Oh, and I hate to kill your point, but people would generally be happier to hear someone say that the something was accomplished by the death of the soldiers than to say their death was worthless.

And yes, look at the reasons we went into Vietnam, and look at the end result. Wasn't pretty, but Vietnam did stop the spread of communism.

Well, since the beginning, he hasnt had evidence. Thus there in lies why I didnt trust it since the beginning.

Well, we won WWII and the Revolutionary War, so they didnt die in vain. Er, and hate to burst your bubble, but we lost Vietnam. We didnt stop communism from spreading. Hence the fact that the other side won, so they got what they wanted...

The soldiers deaths weren't in complete vain, fighting for your country is one of the most noble ways to go out. But, in the end, we did lose.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

I'm not going to waste my time digging up all of the evidence for you. It's obvious you, yourself, have never researched the evidence and went through the reports. It's too bad you just listen to what CNN tells you rather than finding things out for yourself.

If you would like to read the British Dossier may learn something: www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/iraqdossier.pdf

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

He always had evidence. Just because no one shows you, doesn't mean it's not there. Showing evidence doesn't help our cause. "Hey look guys, here they are at a chemical facility that we haven't inspected yet." Wait, I got an idea! Why not move them before inspectors return? :rolleyes:

We lost Vietnam? Please, explain to me how we lost Vietnam.

We kicked their ass, bad. We won all the battles, and I don't think there's been a war where we have ever done better. So from a military standpoint, we sure as hell didn't lose.

We went in to stop the spread of communism, you know, the old domino effect. That sure worked. Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand all stayed free of communism due to Vietnam. Indonesia kicked the Soviets out in 1966 because of Vietnam. Vietnam not only stopped the spread of communism, but started the fall of communism.

South Vietnam lost the war, they never got their independence. The US accomplished what they went in there to do.

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Im assuming that was for me, but the link is broken. The only thing I learned from that was suggestions for looking stuff up on google.

By the way, Gekko, Im not trying to argue with you, Im just debating. I find debates quite fun. :)

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Yes, I couldn't get it to link to the HTML version, so you can now view the PDF version and learn something.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Works for me. http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/iraqdossier.pdf

And finding debates fun is not necessarily a good thing. To debate means you have formed an opinion are are prepared to defend it. At 16, I see no reason why you need to form opinions on politics. In all honesty you would be better off absorbing information, and asking questions to help understand instead of arguing. Then over the next few years you'll learn something, but get really pissed off when you have to argue a 14 year old on a gaming forum about politics. Just my advice.

I feel like arguing today :)
 

So now we are morons if we don't think that there are WMDs? Well show them to me and I'll believe you, but until then, don't call me a moron.

Look, your 2 reasons why the US invaded Iraq was 1-the WMD and 2-To free the population. Well, we all know what happened with number 1 and I would have to say that #2 is pretty much stupid because of the fact that there is a lot of places worse than Iraq and if it was the case then Iraq should be part 1 of a world wide crusade to "free" all those who suffer. I say that you have one hell of a job to do. Also, don't you find it odd that it's still chaos out there, that the main services have not yet been restored, but there is already oil shippement coming from Iraq?

Re: I feel like arguing today :)
 

He's back! *hears no clapping*

There's a long list of reasons to call you a moron. But you're a special case. Where's your buddy these days? Wonder if he got hit by a bomb :D

My two reasons? I got more than two reasons.

We effectively stopped the production of WMD by the Iraqi regime, and prevented the death of many.

Where did you hear that, the news? I mean, by all means try to pretend you actually care, but you don't. You are against helping out Iraqis, and you make no effort to help the people of these "worse places." You could care less about all of them, so why make the effort to pretend like you care? Iraq is of strategic importance, I can't believe you still haven't figured that out.

No. Afghanistan was the same way, or did you not pay attention?

Not a surprise, except to people who think you can rebuild a country in a day.

And no. It's the largest source of income the country has, and the country needs money to be rebuilt.

Re: I feel like arguing today :)
 

:wtf: huu.. Ok?

And what are those?

Oh ok, so now it's the "production" of WMD that needed to be stopped :rolleyes:

Why? You didn't lnow that? You're right! I don't give a ****. But are you telling me that you actually care for those people? Come on tell me the truth. WTF? I'm not superman, so let them die. Let them sort out their **** by themselves. It's not like we are doing much of a difference anyways. And what's that **** about me pretending to care. I'm not saying that you're doing nothing to help other miserable countries because I care for them, I'm saying that to show you that your argument about saving Iraqis is ****. Strategic importance for what? Showing to other "non-behaving" countries to calm down? The only strategic importance I know about Iraq, is in the oil market.

Then why do it? Oh yhea, they're a threat :rolleyes:

But the oil is sure flowing easily

Yhea, the country get IT'S part of the oil (being extracted by US companies) money and that part is given to some other US companies to rebuilt what you guys destroy. Amazing.

Re: I feel like arguing today :)
 

Almasurah, duh!

I'm not going to make a list.

It's actually the destruction that needs to be started, but stopping production is a good place to start.

Because you don't seem to comprehend anything on your own, only regurgitate what someone else said. You can't say "We shouldn't have attacked Iraq because there are worse places" unless you actually know about those places. Unless you've actually done the research, don't bother trying to state a point. I don't want to hear what you heard some guy on CNN say.

Personally? No. But do I were in their shoes, I would hope someone would do the same for me. I don't know these people, but I do think the US is doing the right thing by fighting for people who can't fight for themselves. We have two choices, sit back and watch thousands of people getting killed, or do something about it. I say we should do something.

You made an argument that the US shouldn't go into Iraq because there are worse places. But in all reality, you don't care. In other words, you just hate America. But don't worry, America hates you.

Strategic importance to everything. By taking away the biggest threat to Middle Eastern countries, you allow room for change. Iraq is also the best place to setup a democracy, since they are the most educated out of the Middle East. They also have tons of oil, which in turn means money to allow them to develop as a country. Then you set an example, and it begins to rub off onto other Middle Eastern countries. There will likely be a revolt in Iran, the Israel/Palestine conflict is moving forward better than anyone could've imagined, and North Korea has all but shut up. If there is one place in the Middle East that has the best chance of being a successful democracy, it's Iraq.


Wow, you got lost. My reply had nothing to do with doing anything.

Because it wasn't destroyed in the process. It also provides a lot of jobs.

You're catching on. It does come full circle, it's supposed to. American tax payers do not want to pay for the rebuilding of Iraq, therefore, Iraq will pay to rebuild itself. US companies have always been getting oil from the Middle East, they do not have the technology to do it themselves. US construction companies are also some of the best in the world, and ones that our government have contracts with, and know what they are capable of. Any surprise they would choose them? No. The US isn't getting rich off of Iraqi oil, the only money from Iraq is going to the reconstruction of their own country, something they need, and for the oil companies to develop the oil fieds, something that oil companies have always done.

:rofl: It's Ranzid and Gekko at it again.

Ooooh the humility.... Ooooh the futility!

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

It's not completely futile. One day he might catch on.

I'm educating the less fortunate, helping out society.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* And the world is a much better place because we got rid of that "evil" communism. I'm not going to try and suggest that communism or socialism is a better option because they're not. They don't work, but none of those countries are any better off because of capitalism, and life in the united states would not be any different if communism were still around... well maybe we'd have McCarthyites running around arresting people for thinking differently.... oh wait, we do have guys like that, they work for Johnny Ashcroft.

And communism fell because Russia ran out of money. Had we not spent so much money building up a useless military force (useless unless you consider Armageddon a legitimate function) to fight the evil "reds" communism would still be around. There was no reason to fight it in the first place. Because the wealthy felt so threatened by the thought of a revolution in the united states they made sure that everyone saw the russians as evil, godless people. We built the largest military force in the world and russia had to try and match it, but because communism doesn't work, they couldn't, and collapsed.

Yes, other countries, for fear of constant B52 flyovers raining fire on their humble villages, desided not to attempt communist revolution. I'm not sure why that's something to be proud of but, ok, I guess.

ROFL

At least its Ranzid and not me. Im just going to set by and watch.

:handball:

Oh, and by the way, I agree with Stonecutter.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Hah... helping society by "educating" a foreign teen about American correct-ness?

"And then society bowed to Gekko's feet as he changed the mind of a Canadian at a Gaming Forum."

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Stonecutter,

Heh. I almost find that funny coming from you. For someone who grew up long after Vietnam and the Cold War, you speak like you actually know what threat this "evil communism" posed. 30 years later communism is all but dead, but it wasn't back then. Communism and capitalism are two completely different societies, and we don't know what the result would be if communism continued to spread. When societies differ, there can be conflict. I don't see communism as a threat, but I wasn't alive back then, so I have no idea what it was like. In 30 years, our kids may not see some guy sitting in a cave reading the Quran as a threat either.

But at least you're not clueless, like some little Canadian in here.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

It is completely futile. He's from New Brunswick.

People from Eastern Canada = :shakehead

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

I don't know how foreign you want to consider Canada. Granted he is from a different country, the culture is almost identical.

And I'm sorry PureEvil, I'm not caught up on my eastern Canadian society. Next time I'll try to find someone from Vancouver.

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

You probably know little of Canadian history, and most definately don't care. Yet, you assume that Canadians are not "foreign" enough to know so little of American history and politics?

It's like looking out from a two-way mirror...

"d00d, stop picking your nose."

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Umm... not quite. First of all, I don't know why you make the jump from what PureEvil said to Canadian history.

Second, Canadian history is not something we learn in school, and not something I have taken the time to study on my own. Canada isn't exactly one of those countries that have had a major influence on the world.

Third, you referred to him as a foreigner, and by doing that implied that he was in some way different. My point was the two countries as similar, so it's in no way different than educating someone from America. It's not like I'm talking to someone from Saudi Arabia here, trying to explain things to them would be futile. There is a chance to educate a Canadian.

And lastly, if a Canadian gets into a debate regarding American politics, they should be educated in it.

Im not Canadian, but Im going to say something here.

Canadians are educated in American politics, every day. They watch CNN too, they are using the same internet you are. When was the last time you went to a news site on the net and it wasnt about America? It happens, but not very often. And at my school, we did learn about Canada and its history. Not as in depth as our own, but you know, enough.

So if you consider Canadians stupid when it comes to American politics, then your wrong. Thats what happens when you live in a country thats not involved in almost anything and you live above a country involved in everything.

And on what Stonecutter said, hes right. The principles of communism isnt bad at all. In theory, its a utopia, a perfect society. Carl Marx wasnt a bad guy, it just doesnt work. Now back to watching...

:handball:

Re: Saddam's Sons Confirmed Dead
 

Well, if you weren't alive back then either, then don't use "the end of communism" as an excuse for that war. You don't want me to argue it because I wasn't alive but you insist on arguing even though you weren't alive, but oh well, it's not my fault you've got no argument to stand on.

FYI, There was no excuse for that war and yes, we did lose. If for no other reason than the political and, more importanly, social unrest in the united states.

What threats does communism pose then?

Actually, what threats does socialism pose? (communism - violence = socialism) Unless you've got a lot of money that you're afraid of losing, it's actually not much.

The wealthy don't want to lose money. That's the big threat. Spend a little, create some enemies for the poor and middle class to hate, have tons of tax dollars go your wealthy friends to build a nuclear arsenal that you need to fight the "evil reds" and you're all set. The rich get richer, and the lower classes don't mind, because they're "fighting evil."