Religions
 

So first of all, I'm not making this to bash religion. I myself am not anti-religion, but I want to see if people can have a civilized discussion on their honest views on religion/religions without it getting out of hand. Let's try to expand some minds, here.

So I'm just going to do a whole lot of typing. Address what I say, bring up your own points - whatever, man.



First I'll put the disclaimer in that I belong to no religion. I was raised by a mother who has a large Catholic family, and a father who loves science/history. So I try to stay impartial.


I can see the good of religion. Stripped down to the balsa wood frame, it's a guideline to be a good person. Hell, go back far enough and it's essentially all one religion anyways.

What I don't like about religion is how easy it is for psychopathic people to abuse their power. Religion is just another avenue to fame, wealth and power. It's really no different (in the end, except maybe the wealth part) than a CEO. CEOs tend to fondle employees and steal from the till much in the same way. They're also typically very shady characters. Obviously there are good citizens who are CEO's, and who are high-ranking religious members in their various religions, and I'm sure some people are both.

I don't believe the problem is religion, the problem is people. People are opportunists. We'll all make a little white lie if it's easier than telling the truth. We all might have different reasons for doing it, but we'll most likely all do it. Some people just don't have the switch that tells them "Baaaaaad moral ideeeea",and those people tend to worm their way into positions of power. Most likely because they lack morals and will just fuck other people over for their own gain.

Knowing that religion is a good blanket for shady activity, already-shady individuals flock to it (like sheep?) because it's the easiest way to cover up illegal activity. You have the almighty God-shield covering your tracks.

That's a very western-religion based rant I had there.

What bugs me more and more is the rose-coloured glasses of tolerance. I don't like all of the negativity that goes against Islam. Islam isn't a bad religion. It's made from the same structural material western religions are. The "only" difference is that when the medieval ages ended, western religions tended to stop the whole "crusade" thing. I assume some Islamists (way back when) were a little upset that the Catholics and Christians decided to stroll into their land, so they just never removed the whole 'jihad' thing from their teachings. I believe technology is the great equalizer, though. Western influence is an inevitability, and I think that will lessen a lot of the cross-religion hate. Definitely won't end racism, though.

AND ANOTHER THING, wasn't Jesus a Jew? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jews born at the time of Jesus were short, hairy middle eastern men, right? So why is Jesus a 6 foot tall white guy with a groomed beard and flowing brown hair? The guy probably looked more like Saddam.

Secondly, being that Jesus was a Jew, and the son of God, this would make Judaism the one true religion, would it not? Because why would God send Jesus down to help people under the guise of a false religion? It stands to logical reason (I...guess) that the son of God would be whatever religion God approves of. God's not partying it up Buddhist-style but creates a Jewish son. If the guy can create anything and everything, why create a son that follows an improper religion.


I'd like to believe that if there IS a God, be it whatever gender, race, size, colour, animal, or religion he is, he wouldn't care what I do. He wouldn't care what I think. He'd just care if I'm happy with who I am, and if I'm nice to other people. If nothing else - and if there is a heaven - I'd like to assume that's the only prerequisite; how good of a person you are. Not what 2000 year old book you like to read.

Edit: I do have to put in one jab that pisses me off, though. In North America after nearly every political speech the leader of Canada/USA usually ends with the fashionable "God Bless my country". I've always wondered; who's God is blessing the country? Your God? My God? Why even mention it. Are you that hard-up for votes that if you don't say "God Bless this bowl of pudding", the religious part of the country will suddenly hate you? Why is saying "In God we trust" (in the USA) and ending every speech with "God Bless this mess" (NA-wide) any different than the Middle Eastern nations which are essentially still governed by religion.


Edit 2: AND ANOTHER (totally tangent) THING. I've never understood the bible in the court. There's some solid separation of church and state, for ya. "Before we get to your logical, evidence-driven trial, put your hand on this dusty book and promise the man in the sky you won't fib." The funny thing is that swearing on the bible (swearing to God) is legally binding if it's in a court, I believe.

Why make it a bible, though? I mean, those people are criminals, right? They're obviously not moral. "Place your hand in this bowl of rice, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you Uncle Ben?" I bet you'd get the exact same result from those people. Hell, I bet if you removed the bible aspect altogether those people would lie the exact same amount. The world would still turn.

I'm fairly sure that only applies to the US, though. To be totally honest I'm not sure if they do that in Canada. I've never been to court, and we don't televise our trials.

Re: Religions
 

The funny thing is that I agree with a lot of that stuff. As someone with what's considered a pretty strict religion.

Fortunately everybody has to make his own decision, but what the decision is based on is a tough subject.

Re: Religions
 

I don't think viewing Jesus through the prism of your own image is a "bad moral idea". It makes sense. You have to think that many of the people who first began creating images of Jesus in Europe had never seen Middle Eastern people, and there is no physical description of Jesus in the Bible for them to go on. Therefore when people painted Jesus, they went with what they knew, and everything snowballed from there. In essence, his image is more cultural than religious.

The only possible thing we could surmise is that Jesus did not have long hair, because Apostle John wrote that any man with long hair was a disgrace, and I doubt he would have thought that if Jesus rocked a 80's metal `do.

As for swearing on the Bible in court, it is not a requirement. You have to affirm you will tell the truth, but swearing on a Bible is pretty much only done in movies and TV anymore.

For me, I believe in God but I'm not religious nor do I belong to any religion because no other religion I've found views Christianity the way I do. I believe Jesus was a son of God just as we are all children of God. He just happens to be a chosen son, meaning he is a prophet and a man, not God walking the earth. In believing that, I find my interpretation offends most devout American Christians more than if I were an atheist.

Re: Religions
 

Okay, here's the problem with what you're saying. You seem to start off with the observation that religion is unique in that it is easy to abuse power, but then you draw a parallel to CEOs. I could draw the same parallel to politics. I'm sure other parallels could be drawn. I don't think religion is unique in that it is susceptible to corruption, indeed, I think many religions would readily admit this.

This is the epitome of original sin -- that we are a fallen people, no?

I would tend to disagree here. I think, in modern times, what most separates Christianity from Islam is the ability to integrate with democratic ideals. Christianity was able to do this, Islam, to date, has not. Catholics in particular have made major concessions in living under democracies (i.e. the Pope should dogmatically be the political and spiritual leader of the Catholic people). That is a significant hurdle for Islam to pass, and until it does, the Middle East will continue to lag behind America and Europe.

Jesus looks like a Westerner in Western cultures. Jesus looks different in other cultures. There's nothing wrong with that. C'mon now.

Could you rephrase this? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Then you're a Deist -- that's legit.

Re: Religions
 

We're agreeing with each other, I believe. I wasn't saying religion is different than anything else, I was saying it's just as easily corruptible as everything and isn't exempt because of 'God', because corrupt people will always seek easy ways to prey on others. I only felt like drawing one comparison because it's what came to mind.


That's why I believe technology is the great equalizer. North Americans don't need to "spread" Democracy anywhere. We just need to continue properly using Democracy, and let the rest of the world observe via the internet. Cultural Integration through technology. Then you get the Middle Eastern uprising.


I was poking fun at the whole "What is the one true religion?" thing. If you think about it, every religion created after Jesus came to Earth is moot - from a western religion point of view. Now, Jesus wasn't a Christian, nor a Catholic (Nor a Taoist, Buddhist or Hindu). So we can rule those five out of Heaven's Religion. Being that Jesus was Jewish, and the son of God (or not the son of God, but still a jew), we can deduce that since he came from heaven, he should be a member of the "true" religion; which would apparently be Judaism. Mystery solved. ;)

Re: Religions
 

Now that I read your post a bit more Typhoid, a lot of your assumptions are just based on not enough knowledge. For example why Jesus was following another religion than he ended up preaching. Before him, judaism was the true religion. They had a lot of prophecies about a messiah, so they knew something was going to change. That messiah turned out to be Jesus. Many jews accepted that, most did not.
If you knew a bit more about the bible, you would probably understand it better.

Re: Religions
 

Jesus wasn't really a Jew. At least not in the traditional sense. See:
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jesusjew.htm

I'm not well educated on Judaism. I'm not even that well educated on Catholicism, despite years of CCD and Sunday school. But the Torah is basically the Old Testament.

So the Mythology is: we have the Torah, it tells of God and Creation and gives us all these rules. It speaks of a Prophecy as well. Jesus is the Prophecy. His existence (now documented in the New Testament) was the "second step" in the Abraham-based religion mythology.

I'm not sure of the entire history of Judaism, but the manifestation of Christianity wasn't till well after Christ's death (if such an event actually occurred).

As stated by Wikipedia:
In fact, sounds like the Professor's beliefs are more in line with Judaism or even Islam.

Islam is the middle ground between Judaism and Christianity. Islam believes that Jesus was just a prophet and not the Son of God.


Hmmm...this is such a loaded paragraph, ripe for the picking. I don't know where to start! So can you elaborate on some of these fine points, lol.

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I've always felt a very close relation to Judaism, but I just can't down with all of the ritual and hurdles to joining. Belief doesn't need to be located in a building or organization.

Re: Religions
 

I agree with Angrist in that a lot of these issues have more to do with a lack of knowledge of the historical underpinnings of Christianity than any kind of philosophical disagreement. Jesus fulfilled the original covenant with the Jews and started a new covenant after his death for Christians, for Jews, they are still waiting for the fulfillment of that initial covenant.

In regard to Juadism, it's a very interesting religion in that the spectrum of its sects is so broad: Orthodox, to Conservative, to Reformed / Liberal. In many ways each sect is an entirely different (and often opposite) way to practice the same religion.

Re: Religions
 

The "Wasn't Jesus a Jew" stuff was much more joke than not. (I actually have read the Bible. Catholic mother and all, pulling the whole "You don't have to read it, but it'd make me happy if you did". :\ )

Like I said, I'm not actually against any religion. I'm all for something that gives people piece of mind and helps them be better people.



Again, not 100% serious. When I get stoned and start to type, I wind up doing it as if I'm actually talking - I forget tone, and subtlty are entirely lost in text alone.

The frame of that paragraph I wrote was that I just think people who follow "Middle Eastern" religions tend to get a bad wrap just because of a select few people, and I don't find that fair at all. I think that'd be about as fair as only looking at the KKK then saying all Christians are like that, you know what I mean - I'm not a fan of things like that.

--
But it's not like I was trying to make this thread for only my opinions and whatnot. I actually want people to have a discussion about their real feelings on religion, however specific or non-specific. I just want to see if it's something people who believe in different things can calmly talk about without it turning into an insult-fest, or a closed-mind-off. (I'm not saying anyone here is like that, I'm just seeing if it can be done). I want to mediate the expansion of minds, and thoughts.

You know, maybe someone who is/isn't religious won't turn a switch and say "I now think the other side is correct!", that's not my goal. My goal is to see if people - whoever they are - are able to be open to the ideas of others, and not shoot them down immediately. I believe knowledge and conversation are the most important things we've got - and I think religion is something that not enough people calmly talk about (in general) without trying to either pump themselves up or knock another down. I think it should be as freely talked about (In a positive way) as anything else.

Re: Religions
 

Ehm sorry, but not being 100% serious in a serious thread like this doesn't really help. :)

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I'm aware of my mistake. That's why I tried to correct it with my last post.

Re: Religions
 

Well I had a hunch it was a smoke-induced, think-out-loud type post. That's why I didn't elaborate on that loaded paragraph. :p

I'm thinking of a mature and elegant way to post how I feel about religion. At the end of the day, cynic I am, I'd like to believe there is some purpose to it all.

But I'm also impressed with the Universe and the world around me. I'd also be okay with "the purpose" simply being my short existence. Maybe the universe always existed, and always will. And on most days that is good enough for me. I haven't even fully appreciated this world, let alone the galaxy, let alone the universe.

The hardest part: letting go.

It's hard to just...let go. We are all strapped on this roller coaster ride called life, and we cannot get off. So enjoy the loops, and the drops, and the zero gravity. Because at the end of the day: everyone's roller coaster ride comes to an end.

That part scares the shit out of me still.

Re: Religions
 

ALL OF THE STATEMENTS BELOW ARE MY PERSONAL OPINION!!!


HMM:


My personal beliefs on religion are no longer as hardcore as they used to be. At the end of the day, my opinion will not matter to the majority of people raised in an organized religion.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist family. I came out, and was immediately disowned.

Most of you know this.

After conversations and observations I feel like religion in an organized fashion is just a way to control the masses. I've met way too many righteous assholes turned out by organized religion and the different beliefs that it is daunting to me. For the most part I feel like it's a way to keep people for actually thinking for themselves.

I'm not saying that people are dumb, but I feel like in a group setting like that, people don't have to think.

My personal religious beliefs are now:

Maybe there is some type of higher power, but I'll never figure that out in this life, and there is no longer any point in trying to figure it out, for when I finally pass on I'll know what's up.

Re: Religions
 

Scientology is the only true religion, it has never taken advantage of any of its followers. You guys just need to release your thetans or whatever.

Re: Religions
 

I release my thetans all the time.

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I want to be religious because of how terrified of dying I am but I can't because I'd know I was being a phony.

Re: Religions
 

Not for argument's sake, but for conversation's sake;


You'd "know" you were being a phony?
How is that any less closed-minded than "There's definitely a God, Science is wrong".
You're not even leaving yourself any room for spiritual growth.

Re: Religions
 

Isn't a lot more comforting to know you simply won't exist after you die rather than have some sort of essence of yourself (What parts exactly? What will be your form? What you looked like when you died?) transported to some other realm of who knows what ruled by some higher being? Believing in an afterlife is far scarier of a concept for me than simply being worm food.

Re: Religions
 

As Calvin (Of the Calvin & Hobbes') said "Dying sounds like an awfully big adventure."


Personally, I don't find much solace in the fact that once I die, time might as well have never existed in the first place.


Occasionally I try to find a way to mesh science and religion together. Science is built on what if, after all. And there's no bigger "what if" than "What if a God (or what we would perceive to be a God) actually does exist?"

I recently watched Horton Hears a Who (Because I can), and it made me think about this. Follow me, here.

The Who's of whoville cannot see Horton the elephant. They cannot understand the fact that there is more than there world out there. They cannot comprehend what it would look like, or even begin to fathom the size of everything that exists outisde their little spec on that flower, let alone the size of the elephant; gigantic to them, but infinitely tiny within his own Universe. Even if they were to SEE Horton the Elephant, he would be much too large to even be recognized as a thing.


If we were to stare directly into the face of God, would we even know it? :ohreilly:

Re: Religions
 

I think you'll like this: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php...&id=2431#comic

I'm iffy on the god thing for that reason. If some god did exist, it would surely be incomprehensible to us.

But for there to be an afterlife you would have to assume humans are special compared to all other lifeforms other than our intelligence. (Which I know religious folks have no problem believing but you need to do mental gymnastics to make things work out otherwise.)

Imagine how many insects are always dying. Heaven would be almost entirely beetles. Or do they go to hell? Or does each little beetle soul get reincarnated?

What about one-celled organisms? If one of those die, nothing happens? The human body is made up of trillions of them which are dying as well at different rates. So the distinction is an independent organism then? (Except no creature exists in a vacuum.) Or is size the determining factor? In the grand scheme of things we are itty bitty teeny weeny specks.

Basically you would need to subscribe to the notion that only humans (a very new species) possess a soul (which there is no proof of) for any of this work out (or keep some semblance of yourself in this afterlife). But your memories are all housed in your physical brain...

As far as I'm concerned there can only be an afterlife (how one thinks of one at least where you are still you) by not thinking about how it would actually work.

So much simpler and elegant to think of ourselves as just mass. When we die our form just changes.

I would suggest watching The Invention of Lying. Not the greatest movie and probably offensive if really religious but there are some good ideas, especially about the creation of the afterlife idea.

Re: Religions
 

I'm not so worried about being dead, I'm more concerned with the transition.

Cell death in your brain sounds terrifying.

There are some arguments for or against decapitation because the subject may remain alive momentarily. :p

The concept of a stroke (how my grandfather and his dad went) terrifies me. Or a heart attack. Just the transition is freaky, not so much being dead. If there is nothing after I die, I won't give a shit, will I? :D :p

I also have a weird fear of cremation and being buried. I guess that's irrational.


As far as science meshing with religion....I like the idea that the Universe is a constant and that it has "always been." Maybe life is cyclical and we will all do it again. But then I look back and think..."Do I really want to not be able to drink and/or drive again? Fuck no!?"

So then maybe there is reincarnation. That could be fun. If I come back as a female I'm definitely going les.

Or maybe everything is just a string of conscience and once you die you just become an infinite stretch of energy. Maybe time slows down.

Or maybe if you were a good person you get to go hang out with J-C for all eternity. I hope all the cool people are there...like George Carlin and Bernie Mac.

If there is a purgatory, I'd like to think we are in it right now. If I come back as a ghost, the first place I'm going is the lady's locker room. Hide your wife and kids. That isn't ectoplasm.

Re: Religions
 

I'm curious as to why you have that view? I've had a lot of conversations on religion before, but I don't think I've ever heard that point.

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Oops damn. Typo. Incomprehensible. I'll go fix that.

Re: Religions
 

Do any of you follow the news on physics lately? Basically they thought they had figured it out... but now they discovered they haven't. The speed of the expanding galaxy isn't decreasing (as gravity would dictate and which is the basis for the bing bang theory), but it's increasing.
Scientists also can't figure out the behavior of gravity outside our solar system. They can't find enough mass to explain the movement of stars etc. So for years they've had this theory of dark matter, which can't be seen but still exerts gravity. But because apparently that isn't enough, some scientists propose that energy can also exert gravity. And when that isn't enough, there has to be 'dark energy'.....
And then finally there's the recent discovery (presumption) that neutrinos are faster than light.


I'm not saying that stuff like that is a prove there is a God, because that would be a fallacy. I'm just saying that whatever science uses to disprove a God, I'm not buying it. People think they're so clever, while in fact they only understand a small part of the universe.
Oh and I wonder who are worse: scientists who think they're clever, or all the people who just believe them without looking at the facts/reasonings themselves.

Re: Religions
 

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

When did scientists try to prove or disprove God?

Physics is an exploratory science that examines our natural environment. It is based on theories which are compositions of ideas that stand up to repeat testing and empirical evidence (i.e. the scientific process). As you stated in your post, many of the theories are being adapted and changed to fit new information. That's the whole point of science and why science is awesome.

Science doesn't prove or disprove God. It never has been intended to do such.

On the other hand.....

Re: Religions
 

Also, we've known for a long, long time that:

1) The universe is expanding

2) We are accelerating away from everything else

This video is absolutely important and worth your time:




Dark Energy seems to be very real...although I'm not qualified to really defend it so I'll post another video.



And from what I can tell, the jury is still out on the neutrinos that are faster than light. And even if neutrinos do faster than light and we need to make changes in our theories, that is a good thing! I certainly hope we don't know everything. Humans are relatively young, and we have so much to learn. That's why science is great.

But the best part? You can still have a passion for learning and exploration and you can still have religion and God. The existence of God has no baring on environmental observations. You can observe that it is hot or cold outside, and you can attribute that to God or you cannot. Either way, you can observe that it is hot or cold outside.

Re: Religions
 

I thought there were some theories now that the universe is contracting?

And I didnt watch your hour long videos because I cant sit still that long, but ive been watching a newish series called "Into the universe with Stephen Hawking" and it goes over stuff like the expanding universe and dark energy and neutrinos and being able to time travel using a black hole.

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I'd know I was being a phony because I'd be being religious when I'm not sure in my heart if I believe in god or not.

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Maybe it's interesting to note that the Bible doesn't speak of faith as something you merely hope... It's more than that, it's based on good arguments, on a good study of the Bible etc.

So if you wonder if there's something out there, just give it a more thorough look.

Re: Religions
 

buuuuutttt....

http://scitech.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08...-the-big-bang/


I think the Big Crunch is still a serious theory, so you are right that scientists think at some point in billions of years the Universe may collapse. For now, the Universe is expanding and will continue to do so for a while.

Re: Religions
 

The nobel prize in physics was awarded this year to a bro that figured out the universe is not only expanding, but that it is expanding at an increased rate (I think KG already said this). The universe may eventually contract, but it currently is not (at least this is current thinking).

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Lol...

Have you even fully read and understood the bible?

I mean really?

BECAUSE THE BIBLE IS FUCKED UP!!!

Which actually makes it a pretty interesting read. I really wish more people had read it, and realized that for the most part any modern day preacher/pastor/priest/whateverscientologybuttfuckleader/bullshitdude is saying is mostly out of context to avoid a lot of the fucked up shit the bible says.

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I've read the Bible once, I'm on my 2nd read-through at the moment (with 4 pages per day it should take a bit more than a year to finish it).

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How can you expect to read and fully comprehend something at the pace of 4 pages a day?

...

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According to the bible we are all inbred. So if everyone came from the same 2 people, how did different races form, and different diseases through humans? The bible is stupid and has so many flaws. And hasnt it been changed several times in the past?

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Eh are you being ironic?

Anyway, the time has come for me to jump out of this thread again. People start throwing unconstructive statements into the discussion and I'm not going to spend any time and energy into dealing with them. I don't see it make much difference anyway; if you want to dislike the bible (or anything really), you'll always find a rock to throw.

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How would you ever know if spirituality of any kind would help out your piece of mind if you're not even willing to attempt the possibility of expanding your beliefs.

Closed minds can never grow.
Obviously I'm not saying "Hey buddy, believe in God." I don't even believe in 'God' - we both know that.


But how do you know you'd be a phony if you're not even sure if you believe in a God or not in the first place. Sounds to me you're more afraid of what people would say about you if you truly did start believing in a 'God'.

By looking into various religions, you don't immediately forgo logic and everything you've learned about history and science.

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Religion of any sort boggles my mind.

I feel like I live in a world where everyone believes in Santa Claus and I'm one of the few people who realizes that he isn't real.

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I think Buddhism is pretty cool, mainly because Buddhist monks and temples look cool.