President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

This has been a hot topic amongst the political animals on this forum for a while now, so I thought I'd make a special area just for discussion on what many pundits believe is President's Obama's "make it or break it" speech for healthcare reform, and some believe perhaps his presidency.

So, before the speech happens, what are you looking to hear from President Obama?

Before the Speech

If you are a firm supporter, what does he need to say to convince an unconvinced and somewhat angry/distrustful populace?

If you are not a supporter, what does he need to say/do to convince you his solution is the best or good enough to approve?

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

I'm somewhere in the middle. Basically I want details on a plan that will make everyone have health insurance but at the same time not completely hose those who have it now, and also reduce costs.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

I think that's what everyone wants, but all signs point to that not happening.

As for the topic, I'm not a firm supporter of Obama, so I guess the second question fits me better.

This speech won't really convince me either way, actions speak louder then words. There's only one thing he could do that'd make me approve of him at this point:

Explain to people how his idea for healthcare reform will both increase coverage and lower costs. I will not accept one without the other.

Plus he needs to explain to people how much of their tax dollars are being spent on healthcare. Explain to them that when a person goes to the doctor without insurance and gets those ridiculous bills that they can't pay off, that tax dollars ends up taking the tab. Explain that when someone goes bankrupt because of health issues that tax dollars get wasted too.

He needs to explain WHY healthcare reform is needed even from a financial standpoint, and how his plan will result in lower taxes in the long run.

He also needs to draw a line in the sand, there's been enough time debating. He should mention that he'd veto any bill that doesn't increase coverage and lower costs. Reassure people that he's not going to pass anything that's not real healthcare reform.

That's just what I think he should do. Its hard to say what he's really going to do though, he's not stupid enough to duck his head and just say no more public option.. but.. I'm about 99% sure the public option is not happening.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

I'm going to be pretty disappointed if a public option is not pushed for.

Anything less will be unsatisfactory - although I guess it could be made up for if strict enough regulations on private health care companies are enforced.

He should also spend some time dispelling the rampant myths about a public option that have people so terrified of it.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Oh speaking of the public option...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_264375.html

I don't think Obama will waste time dispeling the myths of the public option because I don't think he wants it to pass. But I'll stick at my 99% chance.. meaning there is some hope!

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He'll mention a public option to appease the progressives, but he won't make it a requirement. A bill with a public option would never get through the house with Conservative Democratic and Republican opposition, and the White House is quite knowledgeable of this. Pres. Obama needs some kind (any kind) of bill more than he needs the approval of the left-wing of his party.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Sorry for the confusion, but the support part of my a questions was about government health care, not President Obama approval.

Also, I won't be watching the address tonight so I'll abstain from comment until I catch a replay.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Oh, well then you already know how I feel about that. I support a public option for healthcare insurance, as long as its an option and not manditory.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

The question was as follows:

If you are a firm supporter, what does he need to say to convince an unconvinced and somewhat angry/distrustful populace?

I agree with Bond, though, it doesn't look like he's going to take a stand on a government option. But the problem is, if he's not going to take a stand on a specific type of plan, how is he going to lend specifics to paying for health care, etc. like his administration officials have been saying he would?

I fear this will 45 minutes of the same rhetoric of generalities (lower costs, cover more people, increase competition) that he's been saying for months, as if to say to everyone that they simply haven't been paying attention, and I don't think anyone on either side of the issue want to see that.

If he breaks out personal anecdotes of people suffering in the current environment, I think we can be confident he really misunderstands the current discussion. It's not about whether or not to address health care; all sides agree it needs to be addressed. It's about how to go about addressing it and if his comments are "pull on the heart strings" I think he will cause more frustration and exasperation as he'll show himself to be behind the curve.

Once again, we'll see.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

My reply would be the same.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Once again, it was a very good speech. (In my opinion) He did everything I requested, on some level or another. However, as I said before, actions speak louder then words.. So lets see what really happens.

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Missed everything but the last 15 minutes, so I have no idea what he really talked about. Just came into him saying medicare wouldn't go away. Going to have to find a replay somewhere.

Did he push for a public option of some sort? Most of what I heard had to do with helping families who already have health insurance have more reliable and affordable coverage, helping people with pre existing conditions, and helping people not go bankrupt if something serious happens.

These are all really good things, but the part I saw didn't mention anything about people who can't afford health care at all.

Republican response was ok, but a little pretentious, and this guy did that same thing that Bobby Jindal did where they talk to you like you're a 5 year old. 3 out of their 4 points were good, but they quickly glazed over the 3rd point where they said "everyone should be able to afford health care."

How do they plan on doing that? No matter how much you increase competition and decrease malpractice claims, there will always be people who simply cannot pay for health insurance without jeopardizing another part of their life, unless government aide is available.

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Vamp you missed the majority of the Speech, he touched on the public option in a strong way, and talked about people who couldn't afford healthcare. go to www.msnbc.com it should have the full video there.

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I haven't seen the whole speech yet, only the highlights from each major news network, but if what I saw is a microcosm of his whole speech I'd say it's the least successful of any speech he's made to date. He had an opportunity to come across professorial, which he is very good at, but instead he took the route of the patronizing school marm lecturing those who "just won't listen". And from what I saw, the reasoning behind the existing bills were simply repeated, and not expanded on or clarified, especially when it comes how to REALLY pay for it. The efficiency/cost reduction thing is not a new argument, nor has it been a convincing one. Also, I HATE the idea of forcing people to get healthcare who do not want it, and that would be a deal breaker for me as I find that a bit too Orwellian for my tastes.

I was happy to see the idea of tort reform addressed though, however briefly. And I think he mentioned opening up national competition, which would be a GREAT thing, but I only heard that in pundit recap, not from the horse's mouth.

But from what I saw, his answer still remains to hamstring private care with added regulations/mandates overall... and then compete with it, and I think that's rife with opportunities for abuse and quickly regulating private care into extinction.

But then again, that's just from what I saw in the highlight reels. I'll add more thoughts as I find the entire speech later this week.

I didn't see the Republican response, but I'm sure it was condescending, if recent history is any indicator. I prefer John McCain's overall healthcare response, converting the contentious un-insurable via government organized, but not funded, risk pools to sell to private insurance to reduce their risk by injecting volume into the equation and lower costs overall. That would 100% necessitate nationwide competition, though, if we wanted it to work. Personally, I think his plan driven organically by market forces is as comprehensive as I've seen and borderline brilliant.

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My biggest gripe is payment.

He says, he will cut costs and overhead, but if that's happening.. shouldn't it be cut now... and then work into payment.

Anyhow, the man delivers a great speech, but I need some tangible words to actually digest it all, it was a 45 minute speech and all.

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All I'll say is, media will twist things as they please. You should listen to the whole speech for yourself and judge it.

I would call it his most sucsessful speech in a very long time personally.

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Joe Wilson is a vagoo and I am going to enjoy watching his career blow up in his face like the orgasm that Michael Duvall gave to his two mistresses.

Stay classy politicians.

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I agree his venue was inappropriate and shameful, but his point was not. Those pushing government care constantly point to "48 million uninsured"... the problem is the census says 9+ million of them of them are illegal aliens. Now perhaps President Obama clarified that last night in saying no illegals will get coverage... but then they have to stop using the 48 million number in their arguments...

So one way or another, there is a lie in there somewhere.

EDIT: Also, for the record there is no mechanism in the current plans to actually check for citizenship, and an amendment to verify citizenship before care is given was voted down on party lines. So in the end under current plans there is no need to state "we cover illegals". We will by default.

I'm going to see whether or not I can see the whole speech during lunch today, and offer my full thoughts.

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It does sound like a good plan. I'm just very skeptical since the free market has failed epically thus far, and would prefer something that has a more concrete set of results.

Like, what if we do that and it doesn't reduce costs like we thought it would? Or if the costs are reduced, but not as significantly as we needed them to be for the plan to be successful? And who gets to define what the word "uninsurable" means? I have a very bad feeling it would work along the same lines as the "expected family contribution" for sending a kid to college.

If you've ever looked at those, they are hilariously high, and not at all what a family can reasonably afford without selling their home or something.

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That makes me happy to hear. :) I guess your 1% came true? :P

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I would say that we haven't had a real free market in a very long time in terms of healthcare. Not allowing companies to compete with one another outside of state lines is not competition, it's regulation impeding competition. Curently, the healthcare industry is one of the most heavily regulated in the entire country, outside of financial industry.

So we've seen two industries have significant difficulty/failure, healthcare and financial, they are are the two most heavily regulated in the country...

Meanwhile things like food (beyond the FDA) and especially clothing (items everyone needs) have been the some of the least regulated in the country and we've seen their prices remain relatively cheap and accessible over very long periods of time. (I'm not comparing their complexity, only their oversight and government intervention relating to success and affordability.)

I don't see how a government option automatically answers any of those questions either. If the government option doesn't reduce costs, and the CBO says it won't reduce costs but increase them even more, will we switch to a free market system after spending an estimate $1 Trillion to establish the government program?

How will the government defined the uninsured? How will they define who gets treatment, especially if we see a continued drop in the number of available doctors? What if survivability odds for life threatening diseases drop to levels we see in other socialized nations? Will that be a failure, or deemed acceptable? If we don't like any of these things that government healthcare imposes, will we even have a choice or an alternative anymore or will our only recourse left be to petition our government to change it?

Here's a great question: If the government really wants competition, why will they only fine company's without insurance 8% of their revenue, when companies pay FAR more than that in providing healthcare to employees? Isn't that encouraging companies to drop care to save costs? Isn't it easier to do so when there is a government option waiting to gobble up their employees?

I don't disagree with the problem, and quite honestly this debate is beyond recognition of the problem. It's the solution that is causing the divide.

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The problem is, if we switch to a free market first, there's no telling what the results will be. Giving companies more freedom and money doesn't nessicarily mean they'd use it to the greater good of the country. Ask George W. Bush.

I'd rather see more controlled and planned out results, then just taking the leash off of private insurers.

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And we know what the results of a government run plan will be? Every question we can ask of private solutions we can easily ask of government solutions.

If we wat to make judgments based history and evidence there is far more failure shown in government run entitlements than privately run businesses. At least private business has examples of reducing costs and increasing efficiency. I have yet to see a government entitlement that does this and I'd honestly love to know of one if anyone can point one out. Perhaps I'm simply ignorant on the subject. Medicare is bleeding money like crazy, social security is on the road to death and our public schools spend more per student than any other country per for mediocre results (and for the record I'm a public school supporter, but the system needs to be blown up).

But most importantly a system based on free markets (not 100% free market, as that has as many pitfalls as 100% government) is a REVERSIBLE path if it doesn't work. The current bills are essentially designed to overcome the speed-bump that is private care, and once government care is the norm, it will be virtually impossible to reverse, and we'll simply tolerate failure. Entitlements don't go away, and they are rarely improved when they prove to be at best inefficient and wasteful, regardless of how poorly they run or how much everyone recognizes the problem.

I'll choose the option that is reversible first, rather than the entitlement that in practice will likely not be.

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I don't think either option is reverseable. Its not like they can open up the market 5 years and say "Oops, that didn't work.. everyone drop your national insurance, we're going back to the old way!". In both cases, the only thing they can do is build onto the ideas that they had offered if it fails.

I think in one option you trust that private insurance companies will lower the rates, and in the other option you trust that the government will lower rates. But neither way is really reverseable.

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That may be your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but I don't see any truth in it as I can't think of any evidence to support it. The discussion we're having right now is about a change that would literally "reverse" a private system.

We have a long history in this country of "reversing" private systems to government run ones. For examples just see the failing entitlements I posted above. We don't have any history of reversing government entitlements, not even social security could get changed and that program virtually a corpse. Once again, if you know of any national entitlements that have been dropped in favor of private systems/business, please let me know. I'm trying to think of one and I can't.

EDIT: Thinking even harder, I can think of times when Reagan and Bush Sr. and Jr. deregulated to an extent, but even they weren't able to eliminate entitlements to my knowledge.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xboKq4rzYZg

The Republican Response if anyone wants to check it out.

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Here is the response without having to sit through Keith Olberman's nonsense at the end. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAuPB54ObU8

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Ok, lets say the government reversed free market things that are happening now. Lets say car insurance no longer could be sold accross state lines, lets say that banks can't function accross state lines. Or, lets say they made it no longer illegal to drive without car insurance..Honestly, do you know what kind of uproar that would cause?

So if they changed insurance to working accross state lines, then there is no going back. They would only be able to implement ideas to make it work more efficiently across state lines, but there will be no REVERSING what they did.

Same goes with the public option, there would be no reversing it. Once its there they can add regulations and make changes to it, but its not going away completly.

I don't see any examples of the government dropping such a huge regulation on a private sector industry and then re adding it. Do you think NAFTA will be reversed any time soon? :lol:

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Sure you could reverse it: A government plan covering everyone, exactly what they're pushing right now all things considered. There is no uproar over state lines or what have you when there is no competition to roar.

We're not talking about regulation, we're talking about government run and operated entitlements. They are very different. NAFTA is not an entitlement that feeds, cares or pays people, it's a trade agreement aimed at industry.

I have given several examples of systems that the government has taken over that used to be supplied by private industry, can you name any entitlements that the private sector has replaced?

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I'm assuming that a public option, universal health care system will work based on the fact that it has had moderate to great success in every other developed country. Certainly better than what our health care system is now. What other examples do we have to say that a free market and private health care system can work the way it needs to? What other examples do we have that tell us this will insure that EVERYONE has health insurance?

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

That's an interesting way to ignore my challenge. I don't accept the basis of your question in the "success" of other countries for reasons we've debated ad nauseum, such as the definition of success and the heady logistics of those policies in America. Also, don't mistake that the burden of proof in the argument is on the private system. The current American healthcare system is a known entity. The government run is the unknown, with the only relevant evidence to support it being Medicare and Medicaid, and they make a very poor case.

The bottom line is we can find the perfect government run system in some other country, and that would still have zero relevance to an American system working or the existing legislation. Such evidence would be equal to making a decision based on conjecture and "hey, if they did it...".

My questions and assertions in this conversation are based on the current American legislation, American experience with American entitlements, and the American economy.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Prof I think you're a bit confused about my arguement.

If the public option is created, it cannot be reversed. If it has problems, then there will be changes made to it over time to correct the new problems it presents.

And at the same time, if the limitation for companies to insure people across state lines is dropped, it also cannot be reversed. If it has problems, then there will be changes made to it over time to correct the new problems it presents, but its argueably as hard or harder to change then a government run insurance option.

I disagree with your logic that such a major change to such a major industry can be reversed. Which is why I brought of NAFTA as an example. It dropped a limitation on where industry can operate. It litterally cannot be reversed now because too much of industry has moved outside of the united states.

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No, I understood it completely. My argument is that your opinion on deregulation as being irreversible is moot, because to reverse it is as easy passing a universal government plan if the free market plan doesn't work. There is no reason to reinstate regulations on private care if there is no private care to regulate.

History has shown that it is far easier to install entitlements than end them. So far it's been impossible to end entitlements, and we're currently talking about CREATING another one right now.

Therefore, these two concepts combined = a free market plan being reversible if it fails, and a government plan being irreversible, IMO.

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I guess that depends on your definition of 'reversible' is. If reversible is making future changes that counter the affect of the changes that are made now.. then they're both reversible in my book. If reversable is adding regulations back on or flipping some switch that magically takes us back to the time before the changes were made.. then no, neither of them are reversible.

And honestly, how many government entitlements has anyone seriously considered reversing? How many of them really failed to cover the group that it was meant to? I know you mentioned that you had given examples before, but I don't see them..

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I have absolutely no idea what in the world you're talking about in your first paragraph. It makes no sense at all. By "reversible" I mean that it's easily "reversed" to the alternative, and my brain hurts that I feel I actually have to actually explain that.

As for reversing entitlements? As I mentioned earlier, social security just recently. But I'm sure you'll argue what "reversing" means in that sense as well, as if the act of arguing the definition of "reverse" enlightens this discussion at all.

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I wouldn't call that "reversed".. Bad choice of wording on your part.

If you're saying it would be possible to drop the restriction on insurance across state lines first, then put in the public option later.. but not possible to do the public option first, and then deregulate the private insurance companies later.. Then I agree.. to an extent. I agree that it wouldn't be as practical but I don't think that'd it'd be impossible.

But neither change is really reversible.. You can just over ride one idea with another after a period of time.

Its not my fault that you aren't clear about the intent in the use of your words.

So really, are people putting towards a big effort to get rid of social security? I wasn't aware of that, last I checked both sides were trying to "protect" it. Its not perfect, but it covers who it is meant to.

I think government programs are reversible, but I think that for the most part they all work.. so there is no incentive to try and get rid of them. The most people will try to do is fix their flaws, but its good enough to where the concept of government run progams will never be dropped. IMO

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To reverse is to go in the opposite direction of where you were going.

Logic dictates that if you are moving towards a private solution, to reverse would be to go towards a public solution.

This is not hard, but by God you make it hard.



And with that I'm leaving this conversation before you give me brain cancer.

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I didn't need further clarification as you explained yourself before.. But nice way to bail out of talking about social security. And way not to give any examples of Government programs that there is any incentive to back out of.

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32872749...h_care_reform/

I hope democrats grow some balls and vote against this. From how I read it, this bill will lower the costs for healthcare for the government, and extend coverage... (Which will likely result in lower taxes in the end) but It will also likely make the prices rise for people who already have health insurance and force people who don't have it to get it, and it will funnel the money right into the private insurer's pockets..

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The bill was proposed by Max Baucus, a Democrat from Montana. Voting against your own party's bill with a 60-seat majority would be quite interesting.