Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/200909.../ynews_pl888_3

Which should be more considered brainwashing: the President speaking to American children about staying in school, or parents wanting to filter what their children hear in order to try to limit their opinions?

The funny thing is that they don't really care that what he's trying to say is good, they simply don't like it because it will make Obama look good to their kids.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

He's a pedophile!

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I wouldn't call it brainwashing, but I kind of agree with the folks who believe that the post-speech discussion, seems to be pushing the agenda in a more positive light no matter what he says.

I think its great to encourage discussion, but it should be up to the teacher or the school on how to held it.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

It is up to the teacher to show it or not.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

It would have been a nice touch if he handed out the information in little red books or pamphlets.

I've always felt that the government should push for education, but as a very passive player. I feel that school should primarily be about education and promoting a positive learning environment; it should be unbiased and it should be honest. I think Obama's intentions are good if not grand (the man is from Chicago, he knows the train wreck that is Chicago Public Schools) so I support the administration's decision to be active in promoting education. Do I agree with this delivery method? Morally...no. On the other hand, what's the better alternative? American schools are slipping. We used to be number 1 now a whole bunch of countries have us beat. So if Obama can get kids to take an active interest in school, I say go-Obama!

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I think the delivery method is perfect. The President is one of the few people that can say something, and everyone will listen, be inspired, and actually act on it. Especially kids.

I didn't complain (and I don't remember anyone complaining) whenever Bush gave his anti-drug speech to America's youth. Most kids don't care about politics at this point.

The thing is he isn't promoting himself or his administration at all. The people who are against it are only against it because it puts him in a good light. It's like they are admitting he is doing something good, and they don't want their kids to know he is worth looking up to.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

This is not accurate, and the administration even changed their original "curriculum" they sent out for the speech in recognition of this. I don't think people mind the idea of President Obama speaking to a nation of students. Many presidents have done this in the past, usually about the importance of school and/or drug abuse, etc.

What people are/were upset about is the orchestration of continued "Obama-centric" curriculum before and after the speech, such as essays about how they can help President Obama and the like. I believe one of the recommendations was to advise students to read his books, but I'm not certain. The materials have since been changed since the whole hubbub started.

The point is that the discussion should be about the topic President Obama is speaking on, not President Obama himself. It's this type of continued personal campaigning and politics of the individual that are inspiring so many to overreact and make claims that he is a fascist, socialist, megalomaniac, etc.

And now we hear that President Obama wants yet another prime time speech to talk about healthcare, and odds are the ratings are going to fall even farther than they did for the last one. He is quickly talking himself into obscurity. It has been my contention since his election that President Obama is great at campaigning for President, but he doesn't seem to know how to do much more than continually campaign, and I think he's is exhausting a lot of the good will with which he started his presidency.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

American adults act like children and can't be reasoned with, so why not talk to the only ones who are acting their age. Makes sense. Might raise the intelligence level of this country in a generation or two.

I wasn't going to reply until I saw this article: http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dai...souri_town.php
If that's a teacher's viewpoint, kids are going to have to learn to educate themselves.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Well, that seems to be the attitude this adminstration has regarding their constituency, I hope they continue. It's this type of arrogant dismissiveness that loses elections.

This isn't a new challenge by any means, and definitely not one this or any other administration will fix. Culture and social/religious norms are best left to evolve by themselves. Government can't "fix" a society, it can only reflect it, and when they attempt the former horrible things tend to happen.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

How does one fix a society? I can't get over how backwards our country is in the sciences when compared to every other Western country.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

If it makes you feel any better, our country kicks the rest of the world's ass (for the most part) with college. So we have really really smart college kids.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...nment-tertiary

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...ary-enrollment

We have 7 of the best 10 universities in the States:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...rsities-top-10

31 of the top 100...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...sities-top-100

People in the US also spend most time in advanced education:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ed...hooling-adults

And as I am learning in my Psychological Testing class, the United State's college student does better/has a higher IQ/scores better on tests than the majority of the world.


So what we lack in Primary and Secondary education, students QUICKLY catch up when they go to college. So, yay!

Problems in Primary and Secondary education both involve poor curriculum, lack of strict testing, lack of enforced standards, No Child Left Behind, problematic financial situations (CPSs), and this bullshit positive stuff we feed kids: "everyone can go to college!"

NO. Some people are just dumb. We need to bring back schools that don't put down jobs in construction and encourage Johnny Low-GPA/IQ/Test Scores to do something he can apply himself in.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

"One" doesn't and can't. One person can influence a society, but change cannot be imposed open an unwilling populace. The old cliche is that "transformative change takes place in small steps over time", and that is as true as any statement ever made.

We've seen significant steps forward in many cultural issues over the last century, but most of them were generational shifts, taking decades in total, not moments. It's best that way, because a long process is generally a thoughtful one, and a society can avoid many of the unintended consequences of immediate/rash action.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Haha, I always love seeing the culture differences between America and Europe. When's the last time we cared what our prime minister said? We only like to chuckle about him because he looks like an adult Harry Potter.



Also another interesting thing I noticed... American presidents always tell people to pray when something bad happened (Colombine shootings etc.). If our political leaders told people to pray, I think they would get sued or something.
So why is there a huge discussion on whether evolution should be taught in schools, and whether the president can encourage kids to go to school.. but not about whether the president can ask people to pray?

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I've heard about the essay, which was promptly changed, but even that seems alright since it was in the context of getting the kids to work hard on their education. If it had asked something like "How can you help President Obama make abortion legal" or "How can you help Obama remove the Republican party", then that would have been a bigger deal.

You're mistaken about the book, though. The suggested activity actually states for the students to read books about presidents and Barack Obama, and goes on to ask why listening to all elected officials, including mayors, senators, and members of congress is important.

I look back to whenever Bush gave his anti-drug speech, and if the kids had been asked to write an essay "How can I help Mr. Bush", in the context of helping them work towards not doing drugs, then I would have also been okay with that. If the prompt had included "and make gay marriage illegal", then that would have crossed a line. But it didn't, these presidential speeches and their curriculum have all been based on things we can universally accept as good.

But if having some Obama centered things in the curriculum (which there are none) was the big deal here, why haven't people/politicians been voicing out against that? The only thing I've seen splashed across the conservative media and peoples Facebook updates is that they are angry the president is going to "talk directly to the kids."

For example, here's a link to the Republican Party of Florida and their chairman's statement:

http://www.rpof.org/article.php?id=754

No mention of a curriculum centered around Obama. He seems to think that the speech is going to be about government run health care and banks. He's also upset that teacher's can't teach about the "sanctity of human life" or "traditional marriage", and that they can't have prayer in school. He also refers to Obama as "Pied Piper Obama". These are the sorts of things that real people and parents will read and reiterate to their kids.

I ask again: which one is brainwashing?

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Brainwashing:


I have to assume these are the sort of folks that are against Obama talking to their kids. No matter what he does they'll be against it. Which really makes the whole argument null.......and very very scary.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Tell that to President Bush about Iraq! Oh, wait, too late.

*Cue flaming*

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Actually, in hindsight I'd have to agree with this statement. I think the cultural challenges associated with winning the "hearts and minds" were greatly underestimated when it came to Iraq, reflecting our natural predisposition to assume other cultures share similar values. Now it looks like it's going to actually pan out (Afghanistan, not so much), but still Iraq tends to show this as a rule and not an exception to it.

And Teuth, that Jesus camp was not run or endorsed by Bush's adminsitration nor did it take place in public schools, and the Rep leader in Florida is not the President and leader of the free world, but this is besides the point. If a Republican president were to try to endorse himself through our schools, I'd be just as uncomfortable, and uncomfortable is all I am with this. It's a minor issue, but what I find funny is that it should never have been an issue at all because it never should have happened in the first place

Overall, I'm more of an active observer watching this Presidency continually make the wrong moves at the wrong time, and unknowingly helping to foment the entire "movement" that seems to be building against him, with utterly no understanding of how it's happening. So in not understanding, they dismiss it as simply political wrangling, and get themselves in even hotter water.

This is obliviousness at it's very worst, and by worst I mean best :D. All jokes aside, our country has never been more fractured as I believe the two sides in conflict genuinely have no common ground whatsoever, and they genuinely have contempt for one another. This President was supposed to bring us together, but I think it's pretty obvious that his approach to law making and communicating in general has done the exact opposite. He is the leader oif our country, and in the end this is his failure, regardless of whether or not you feel there are "forces" working against him.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

The Internet has made such a huge difference now even compared to 4/8 years ago when Bush was around. Cable news takes anything and everything and throws it at us regardless if factual or not. Hell, with the supposed amount of disdain for Obama, it surely must be making Bush look like a saint. He certainly never screwed up, did he?

Politics as they have evolved since 2000 (and before also but not as heavily as now) from my perspective is on a slippery slope to pushing the country to collapse. Between politicians in bed with every industry (with great results on our economy eh?), so much bias that it seems like nothing is ever achieved for the greater, to denouncing our President for telling kids to stay in school? Grow up.

I'm not advocating 100% equality on everything because its impossible. But once party lines are so divided that when any bill is started, if a Republican(s) is sponsoring it, Democrats are totally against it. If a Democrat(s) sponsor it, Republicans are against it by default. Think outside the box and not just based on your party affiliation. Who knows, maybe all this political divide will cause new parties to actually get some room on the stage. Though then begins the inevitable cycle that a new party once in power just becomes divided again it seems.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I was going to argue with Prof, since I disagree with the last part of what Jonbo and Prof said.. How quickly we forget how bush would get democrats to vote with him be just acting like its an emergency.

I just want to say, though, that the democratic party is beyond weak. When the republicans had even a slight advangage in the house and senate under Bush, Democrats bowed their heads and reached out to try to help the republicans even though the republican representatives were not even trying to reach out to or mold any type of policy around anything any democrat would want.

And now that democrats can pass things without even having ONE vote from a republican representative.. they still act weak and try to reach out to get their approval even though its not needed. All the republicans are doing is trying to water down things like healthcare reform as much as possible, and when time comes to vote on it, they will still vote against it.

It really had boiled down to voting for the lesser of two evils when it comes to politics these days. Nothing Obama has actually done in his time as president can even be called 'progressive'. Hell I'd call him a conservative before I'd call him a radical any day, because he's actually not pushing for any real change. The only thing he's done well is handle forgien policy and help clean up the countries reputation with the rest of the world.

As Jonbo pointed out Media plays both sides of the story, and are not really in pursuit of the truth anymore. For example, If Sarah Palin complains about death panels being in the health care reform bill, then its just played as news... without people stepping in and saying its inaccurate. They're just like 'Democrats say there's no death pannels, some of these random people say there are death pannels.. ok on to the next story'... seriously?

I can't even watch mainstream media anymore these days without feeling ill.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Obama really seems like he needs to validate his approval...Bill Maher said it best. He said if Obama wants to really get things done he needs to just go ahead, kind of like Bush. Bush's whole thing was, "Well...see, I don't really care if you disagree with me about the war in Iraq, because, you see, I am right. And I don't care what you think. I'm the President of the United States, bitches!" If Obama was less concerned about TV appearances and appealing to people and more concerned about getting his shit done...then I think he could get stuff done. Like Bill Maher said, 60% of Americans don't believe in Evolution. Why would you try to validate yourself amongst a country full of dumbasses. /not a huge Bill Maher fan but he makes me smile :D

Interview Part 1: http://www.hulu.com/watch/91684/the-...l-maher-part-1
Interview Part 2: http://www.hulu.com/watch/91683/the-...l-maher-part-2

Now I don't know if I necessarily agree with going ahead and doing whatever you want. But I do think in order to do things you need to offend some people. This is how the real world works. There is no such thing as making 100% of everyone happy, so sometimes you need to do what you think is best and hope for the best. And things like education give people more credibility than some people with no education. My point is....even in a Democracy, someone is going to be pissed.

I agree with Prof S though...this country is incredibly divided right now, and that is not a good thing. Civil War part 2 anyone?

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Bill Maher's quote I like:

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I think we're forgetting the will of the American people in all of this blaming of media, politics, etc.

The fact is more people are for tax cuts than they are for public health programs.

The fact is more people supported the Iraq war when it happened and the Patriot Act than believe in global warming (Cap and Trade).

The fact is Bush did what he did, regardless of whether or not you agree with it, and got reelected handily in 2004 well after the Iraq war started.

Bush's policies got approved because he was convincing in his arguments, for whatever reason you wish to attach. This isn't a statement of personal approval, it's a observation of fact.

The fact is that if Obama forced through policies with the amount of opposition he faces now, he would be rode out of office on a rail in 2012 (with possibly and attempt on his life before that, sadly), and the Dems would suffer a election holocaust in 2010, and all this work they're trying to do would be gleefully erased within 2 years. Obama isn't a wimp, he's pragmatic and he understands what he can and can't get away with if he wants to achieve his goals and make them stick.

President Obama needs to convince the American people that his ideas are the right ones. To date, he hasn't been able to do so, and that is a failure of leadership.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

People are also sadly misinformed a lot. The general populace is basing their opinions on public health care on a lot of false information - and also their desire to "not pay for someone else." They may be in the majority, but the majority shouldn't always rule. Our government is actually, though you may not notice at first, set up to make sure that doesn't always happen. What the majority wants is important, but sometimes they are wrong.

For example...people supporting the Iraq war. That is another case where they were misinformed - just like other people have already pointed out.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

And thats exactly why the last elections turned out the way they did right?

I agree, but its hard for the american people not to support something that was justified with so many lies.

Won handily? Last I checked a lot of people thought Kerry should have won with the whole fiasco in florida. Obama won by a much larger margin then Bush ever did.

In my opinion, Bush's policies won because Democrats are weak and bow their heads to republicans whenever they get a chance. They're even too weak to use the advantage they now have in Washignton.

Obama's policies are not being approved because republicans are not weak and will not bow their heads to a liberal. And because democrats are too weak to use the power they have now dispite republican's opinions on the matter.

What policies did Obama force through? How much has Obama really changed in the last 8 months? And as much as progressives don't agree of how he's handling things now, do you really think they'd sink low enough to vote for republicans? Why?

Agreed, though I don't think its ideas that's hurting him. Its his lack of action that's hurting him worse with his base.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Bush had confidence. Confidence is an important part of winning people over if you are a public speaker. I enjoyed listening to Bush's speeches; underrated, IMO.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Bush's speeches made me feel uncomfortable. Its like watching a bad comedian.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I'll completely agree with you there, and thats because at that point he had lost the argument (and stopped caring, IMO). But in 2004 he won that argument and that was my point. Bush swayed the will of the American people, and that is what Obama has failed in doing.

There is no proof, ZERO, that anyone lied. There is a ton of here-say and logical leaps based on truth that have no real connections, but no real evidence. Misinformed? Incorrect? Negligent, even? Sure. But the rest of the world was misinformed as well. To claim that Bush "lied" is an opinion with little to support it. I'll end my debate on Iraq there, as it's ludicrous to rehash it at this point.

You're wrong on two counts. 1) It was Ohio not Florida that was in contention in 2004 and 2) When Bush won in 2004 it was close in electoral votes, but at the time he won by the largest margin of actual votes in history. Obama did break that record, I believe.

I disagree completely. They aren't acting because they like their jobs and don't want to lose them.

This is the weakest the Republicans have been since Nixon. If the dems can't win now... maybe there are other reasons... like Americans think they have genuinely bad ideas...

None. I never said he did. I was responding those who posted saying that he should.

You really think progressives are the ones who got him elected? Progressives will generally vote for whoever is in a democrat suit, just as conservatives will generally vote for whoever is in a Republican suit. Its the center that wins elections.

His base didn't get him elected, and his base isn't what has him in trouble now. What he's losing is the center, who voted for hope and change without really knowing what that meant, and now that they're seeing it in action, and argued terribly at that, they've retreated. If there was any kind of real leader on the Republican side, he'd be in even worse trouble.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Hardly.

There is plenty of proof that Bush is a liar, you just refuse to acknowlege it. He even lied about where he was on the morning of 9-11. And the reasons for the war were misleading. The rest of the world belived America because America was trustworthy at that point, but now we're not trustworthy.

You're right about Ohio, I got the 2000 and 2004 elections confused. However you're wrong about bush winning by the largest amount of actual votes in history. He won my 3 million votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...election,_2004

Regan won by 7.5 million votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...election,_1980

Obama won by 10 million votes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...election,_2008

Clinton won by 7 million in 96, and by 5 million in 92, old bush won by 6 million in 1988, Regan won by 15 million in 84... I could go on and on.

Bush wasn't as loved as you might think he was. For a guy who served 8 years, he BARELY got approved for his office. His two terms margin combined is lower then anyone in the last 2 decades. Jimmy Carter is the only president Bush is compareable to.

I think progressives are the ones who are hurting his approval rating now. When election time rolls around he's still going to get their votes, however.

I guess this is a half empty and half full glass type issue. The people who voted for "Hope and Change" voted for it, because they wanted it. And they're not getting it outside of forgien policy.. so they don't approve of him. That's the way I see it.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I think the people who don't approve of him because of change not happening fast enough don't realize how long and slow the legislative process is. He has been an extremely active President - he's pushing things as much as he can.

And reality has a well known liberal bias. We can look back through history and see that, in every circumstance, liberals have gotten their way in the end. It will happen again. I believe that society in general has always been a slope towards being liberal - it just takes time. For some reason there are always conservatives who can't understand that they have been and always will be wrong.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Well I look at it like this.. A big thing Obama ran on is blaming the president for how the economy is now. In all reality, it hasn't been enough time for everything to recover, but people want results now. They see that they're still unemployed, the stock market is still hardly worth gambling in, and Obama himself has been center-right on social issues and refuses to really ignore the republicans and push for the agenda they voted for.

So the longer the economy stays bad, the less people will approve of him. But I really can't picture the republicans offering up someone who can beat Obama, because that party in general has too many issues right now.

The Republican party's approval rating, last I heard.. is the lowest it has been in 25 years.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

People also don't understand that the economy naturally fluctuates. There's nothing abnormal about what we are experiencing - the economy will recover and eventually fantastic, before declining again.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Explain.

I'd ask you to post your irrefutable proof, but that would take us far off topic. My thoughts are that if there was real proof and just heresay, Holder would be going after Bush and Cheney, and not a bunch of CIA agents and lawyers over waterboarding.

How did we ever get on Bush in the first place? Is he still president?

I was sure on that, so thanks for the clarification. I concede the point. I do lknow that he was the first President to win by a 50%+ majority in a long time, though.

I never said he was the most loved, I said he won the argument. I'm not even a fan of him as a president, everything considered. I simply refuse to acknowledge that he is the original Mr Satan.

Also, for a little perspective, Bill Clinton was a popular president, but never even won a majority of votes in either of his elections. And even as popular as he was, his progressive polices were soundly defeated in the beginning of his first term. Afterwards, he became very centrist because thats where the votes are.

No, progressives aren't the ones really hurting him, centrists are, and thats why he hasn't acted and tried to push things through. Think logically for one second: Why would he be dragging his feet on progressive issues if it were the progressives that were hurting him? It makes no sense.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Exactly. But I think judging by your politics, you and I make far different conclusions based on that fact...

And your assertions about the inevitability of liberalism are intriguing, if not 100% accurate, but to explore that subject would take another thread and a few hours of discussion.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

We got on the subject because someone said:

"The fact is Bush did what he did, regardless of whether or not you agree with it, and got reelected handily in 2004 well after the Iraq war started."

This completly false statement was the first mention of Bush that I can find.

Mostly because the other political parties and independants were completly flushed out that election. Same could be said for why Obama got over 50%. When there's only two reasonable people competing its hard not to win with a 50%+ majority. (Though bush managed to not even get the most votes and got in his first term.)

I never said that you said he was the most loved. I just said that Bush barely got into his seat. He has some of the lowest approval ratings in history, and he won by the smallest margins in history. Bush did not win over the American people as much as you think he did. The only thing he did right was manipulate washington into doing what he wanted.

He never won a majority of votes in either of his elections? Could have sworn I just posted how much he won by in both of his elections. We won by far more votes then Bush.

The difference between Clinton/Obama and Bush, is that bush was able to manipulate people in the house and senate to do his bidding with politics (i.e. Democrats being weak and actually following whatever he says).. and Clinton/Obama don't have as much luck manipulating the house and senate into voting for what they want because republicans simply refuse to play ball with them. The big difference is that Clinton had a real excuse for not being able to force his agenda in his first term. Obama has no excuse..

As much as the dems want to blame the republicans for watering down healthcare reform, its not the republican's fault. The Dems keep reachign out for approval that they're never going to get regardless of what the end bill looks like.

I listen to conservate and liberal media shows regularly. The talk on the conservative shows have not changed, they never have nor ever will support Obama. The talk on the liberal/progressive has changed completly to slamming Obama and the dems for being weak about how they're handling things in Washington.

I would agree with you if you said progressives aren't the ONLY ones hurting him, but they're a big part of what's hurting his approval rating.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

A majority is more than half. You're thinking of plurality.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Oh I see. That's mainly because there wasn't a legitamate independant canadate when he ran against Kerry. Less then 1% of the country that year who voted, didn't vote for Bush or Kerry. Obama, won by a much larger majority, and much larger difference in actual votes, and electorial votes. And there was more non democrat/republican votes in 2008 even though they still only made up 1.5% of votes.

A two player and 3 player game are completly different. But Bush's margins of victory and approval ratings are still the worst since Jimmy Carter. So I don't really get how one can argue that he "won handily" or even won the hearts of the American people at all.

Lets also keep in mind that the same Bush you speak of won without having the majority of votes in one of his elections. And in both of his elections he was not able to top 370 electoral votes. Which was the lowest Clinton had gotten.

Bush overall popularity wise doesn't compare to any of the other presidents since Carter.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

You didn't look very hard then... I believe we were all talking about Obama until people decided to post about Bush related Jesus camps and other nonsense comparing Bush practices trying to get the conversation off topic. I talked about Bush in response to Vamp and Teuth injecting him into the convesation. Look harder next time, Game. And I still fail to see the inaccuracy of the statement. He won? Yes? He did what he wanted? Yes. The Iraq war was on? Yeppers!

I understand that, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Clinton won with less than 50% of the vote, regardless of how popular he is perceived to be. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he would have lost the election if Perot didn't get his large percentage of third party votes, as I believe he mainly pulled from Republican/center right votes.

No, you said:
Close enough?

The second election wasn't one of the closest in history. It wasn't overwhelming, I'll give you that, but in terms of actual votes I wouldn't rate it as such. Electorally? Much closer.

Exactly, he won the argument. He won two terms and basically did whaht he did with little of the hubbub you see happening now.

Exactly, Bush won the argument.

The dems are also refusing to play ball the Republicans. Have you heard about any of the Republican ideas being incorporated into any of the bills? Tort reform? Opening up competition nationwide, and not just in-state? No, so there is little to discuss, because there is no compromise. Besides, if the dems wanted to push through the bill, they could. They have the votes to push through anything they want. But they won't, because they're not stupid and they like their jobs. You really haven't posted anything that counters this obvious point.

I know. Like I said, he's failing as a leader. What do we disagree on here?

...because they like their jobs and want to keep the majority in 2010. You keep leaving that part out. We do have elections in this country, and if the dems were to push through their policies with how the public feels right now, they would be rode out of office on a rail. It would be the 2004 mid-terms all over again, IMO.

They are weak because they are scared.

Yes, but it's the center that wins elections. Once again, why would a progressive politician not push through progressive policy? Answer: They think they'll lose the election.

I'll say that centrists aren't the only one's hurting his approval, but they are the group that is keeping the dems frozen right now, because they realize that it's the center that wins elections. The center doesn't like whats going on right now on either side.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I was refering to within our conversation. I've been indiferent and never even commented on that post.

Losers always say independants cost them the election. What is your point?

No its not close. Unless you are implying that you originally meant to say Bush was the "most loved". Which would make your own reply of saying he's not the most loved wrong.

But lets stick to facts here, you never called him the 'most loved' nor did I say that you called him the 'most loved'. I just said he wasn't as loved as you think he was and didn't win by some big margin.

I'll correct my statement, and say, in Recent History. Since 1972 there's only been one Election (besides his own 2000 one) with a closer margin thin his 2004 victory. I might just be lazy, but I can't find a president who got into office without the popular vote before except for Bush in 2000.

That's 10 elections, and he lands at #8 and #10 for vote win margin.

Here's the problem, our arguements are a difference in perception in why his approval rating is dropping. Right now, the GOP's approval rating is below 30%. The Republican party is NOT leading some type of intelegent debate on the subject that is winning over centrists. Obama from the gate was weak about pushing the public option out, its not like he's back peddaling, he never forced it through to begin with.

And he's compromising the biggest part of the bill that republicans are against... the public option. You consider that "Not playing ball"? I consider "Not playing ball" what the republicans are doing. Saying that they won't even talk with the dems unless there's no public option. Saying "I won't even have a discussion with you unless you do exactly what I want" is not playing ball.

And polititians in general are weak about making the healthcare insurance industry have competition because they fund their campaigns. The reason there's all this talk saying "Dems don't have enough votes in the senate to pass the public option" is because Dems won't vote against the people who funded their campaigns (Nor will republicans).

I'll leave it at this though, we'll see what happens in 2010, and 2012. We'll really see if those approval rating numbers are really dropping because of people who would actually vote against him.

I believe the healthcare debate is hurting him more with his base due to false promises. You belive its hurting him more with centrests because of how he's reacting to it. That's our fundamental disagreement.. I'm right if Dems manage to get more seats in the house/senate and Obama gets a second term. You're right if Dems lose a lot of seats and Obama is finished after 4 years.

We'll see... and you can feel free to bring this thread back up when the time comes.

I just don't think its accurate to say he's losing some type of arguement when his approval rating is still 30% higher then the GOP's.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Transcript: http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResou.../?source=email

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

and best quote from Digg:
"HOLY FUCK.... STAY IN SCHOOL? LISTEN TO YOUR PARENTS? THIS IS DICTATOR TALK!!!!"