Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Not exactly sure how to word this, but there seems to have popped up a new crop of gaming articles/gamers, who see nothing but gloom and doom for the Wii. While this isn't exactly new business for the Wii...let alone Nintendo, the stance a lot of them is taking... if off-putting to say the least.

A lot of people are painting the picture of the Wii leading to the death of gaming. Even though without it, the industry has actually been on a downward slope.

This goes behind the Wii is a fad (wishful thinking) to people actually expressing that they hope it implodes on itself with the current price drops for the 360 and the PS3.

Now, I'm sure most of you picked up I'm a huge fan of the console. It has offered some of the best games this generation IMO. On the other hand, I obviously can not turn an eye to the fact that it also features it fair share of games that I wouldn't use to clean-up after a dog.

The thing I don't get though is why is there so much anger towards the Wii? Is it because people fear it is pushing games in a direction they don't like (whether it be more "casual" or motion controls) or is there just something about Nintendo?

And as always, the reason I bring this up is two-fold.

-There was a podcast last week... I believe called Invisible War, which was discussing the PS3 price-drop an how it most certainly meant doom for the Wii. They spoke about how it has nothing to offer over the other two, and 3rd parties would flock. As far as I can decipher, the Wii has hardly ever offered anything more than motion over the other two but it hasn't stopped it from outselling both combined for almost 3 years. And honestly, 3rd party support could hardly get worse.

And the second is this article from IGN,
http://au.games.ign.com/articles/101/1019337p1.html

You can read for yourself.

And I guess one more question though a separate idea, but curious what the hell is the deal with all this casual/hardcore labeling nonsense?

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I have no idea. When people complain that there's no games for their Wii, I say, what the fuck? Madworld JUST came out, along with Wii Sports Resort and Tiger Woods 2010. There's also a ton of others. Punchout, Excite Bots, EA Active, and Grand Slam Tennis. Those are all very different genres, too.

I mean, sure, it's not Zelda, but how often would they expect a good Zelda game? Why don't they pick up Rune Factory which I hear is an awesome mix of Zelda and Harvest Moon?

I say that apathy towards Wii is a lot more powerful than a few nerd critics getting angry at it for being "casual."

I think the problem is that 2008 was the best autumn of gaming ever, and Wii fell flat and had no representation other than goddamn Animal Crossing, which was a rehash of the DS game. Wii Sports Resort and Motion Plus are enough to revive it, but maybe it's too late.

Madworld was the true test that EVERY publisher was watching. They said if it didn't sell, then people would give up hope. And Madworld failed those expectations, but it's still an amazing game. Just goes to show you that, in the end, sales mean nothing.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

That's another thing I never get... when people say the Wii has no games. In any one month, it may not get too many classics, but I mean the library has a broad range of games for most all tastes. I could think of dozens of Wii games I would recommend people, but most just brush them off.

And then there is WiiWare, which I mostly blame Nintendo for, but it has a ton of great games, but between a lack of demos and no outside advertisement, the stuff goes unnoticed.

I mean it has online Tetris, Bomberman, a new Mr. Driller, a new Monkey Island game (that isn't a remake), Strong Bad, Lost Winds, Nyx, Lit and Swords and Solider (a 2D RTS, you don't see many of those around these parts), but most people would never have heard of any of them.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Wii Ware is fantastic but then there's also the virtual console! There's a million classics that I'd never played, especially Star Fox 64, Super Metroid, F-Zero 64, and all the Soldier Blades.

If there's nothing in Wii's catalog then there's certainly something in both WiiWare or VC. If it's still not there, then you probably should just give up or buy a 360/PS3.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

(I apologize if does not make sense, I have been drinking)

I am not going to say that the wii has no good games its that they come far and few between. Coming from a non Wii owner it just doesn't have enough games to merit me buying it.

Most of the games on the Wii tend to appeal to the casual gamer. And when I say casual gamer I mean the type who either plays to unlock more modes for friends or just when friends are there. Some of the early casual gamer games (at least in my mind) were DDR and Guitar Hero. Guitar Hero more so because people tend to be more into standard rock instead of J-Pop.

I will think of more when I am soberish

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

The Wii has pushed itself into a zone of family friendly gaming, pick up and play gaming, awful titles, and horrible third party support. There may be good games, but all the failures have just made me ignore anything that they do. Combine that with the fact that im completely satisfied with my 360, and there you go.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Wait.. failures? In what regard?

And isn't it just a vicious circle... you think the Wii is nothing more than family friendly gaming (which I never get why it is a negative) so you only see those games... and you of course don't like em... so you have no interest in the Wii because you think it only has family friendly titles... and the cycle continues.... over and over again.

And not quite sure what the last part has to do with anything really, I mean I guess it means only need one console, but eh.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Wii represents the side of the gaming industry I don't particularly respect.. Short, gimmicky, cheap games and hardware that's built 100% with profiting in mind. Granted I don't mind my cheap and shallow games from time to time, i really don't like that its the #1 selling console. I'd really hate it if MS and Sony followed Nintendo's lead now..

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I think many people are pissed with Nintendo. They are the industry leader with what? A tiny white box which resuses 6 year old technology. And adds motion control.

Up to the last generation, hardcore gamers always decided what console would win the war. But now for the first time it's decided by casual gamers. Somewhere on a subconscious level, the hardcores must hate that.

They're not interested in the Wii. They're furious with it. As gamers they think they want good graphics, they think they hate motion controls. So they ignore it. They keep anticipating the Wii's downfall as their ultimate revenge.

Sucks for them that they're missing out on a very fun console.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Its all personal preference. These are failures to attract me to the system. They have failed to interest me in their product, so I see see it as an inferior machine in comparison to other consoles.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

This makes sense, but not how I read your first post. :p

Well, hardware thats built with 100% of profit.. has always been Nintendo's thing... its just this time graphical capabilities outpaced their own budget I guess. Though can't really see how you can fault them for wanting to make money, unlike MS and Sony, they only have gaming they can't afford to bleed money and make it up elsewhere.

And this is another case where I think perspective beats reality. Though on one note... for a guy who likes sports game... I find it odd you dislike short and cheap games. I mean sure they have replayability, but they aren't exactly epic quests, and for the most part they reuse the same engine for a entire generation with some alterations every year.... but other subject for another day.

As I was saying, people have this image of the Wii as some haven for party games or whatever you want, and that Nintendo is leading the charge.

I may be completely off with this list, but as far as I know Nintendo has only released a handful of games I would deem casual or gimmicky or whatever have you.

Wii Sports
Wii Play
Wario Ware Smooth Moves
Endless Ocean
Wii Fit
Wii Music
Wii Sports Resorts

And I think that's all of the ones I can think of, AC could potentially fall into that gap, but I don't really think so since its more like the Sims then anything else.

Of those games, you don't buy Wii Sports so I wouldn't count it. Wii Play I would say is both cheap and gimmicky, but it was never really intended to be anything beyond a tech demo for the controller.

Wario Ware was a series started elsewhere.

I only included Endless Ocean because I just don't think many people would see it as a game-game, its more of an experience.

Wii Fit is a gimmick, but it isn't cheap.
Neveer played Wii Music.

And I honestly think WSR is an awesome package and along with WMP is a demo for things to come hopefully.

Now compare that to Nintendo's other titles, its more... or less casual titles I guess.
Twilight Princess
Corruption
Galaxy
Batallion Wars 2
Super Paper Mario
ExciteTruck
Excitebots
Punch-Out
Fire Emblem
Mario Kart
Smash Bros
Mario Strikers Charged
The line-up of New Play Control (though won't list them separately since ports)

And then you factor in 3rd party efforts, the Wii has a fairly decent library for the "hardcore" gamer, but what tends to happen is most Wii games go under the radar.

The short and simple of it is graphics sell ideas of games when e3 rolls around and MS shows off a new Halo or Assassin Creed and Sony rolls out a new MGS or FF.. and then you compare it to something like I don't know... New Super Mario Bros, which do you think more people will talk about, and continue talking about? So that's why new franchises like Dead Space or Mass Effect or Assassin's Creed, gets so much press but something like Metroid Prime Corruption got only passing references on most sites.

Oh forgot to ask, why do you dislike that the Wii is number one console exactly?

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I think I've been too hard on my Wii in the past. I literally didn't turn it on for like, a year...but in the past month it is all I have played - I haven't touched my Xbox except for Netflix.

The virtual console is amazing...there are -so- many fantastic titles from the SNES era that I never played, and it's great to get to explore those without using a computer emulator. I can set on my couch and use the Classic controller.

I also just got Wii Sports Resort, which has been a ton of fun. Even though most people seem to think it's only fun at parties, I think some games are more fun by yourself, like golf.

I've also been playing Majora's Mask on the virtual console, and Mario Galaxy is looking to be a fantastic game (I'm finally starting it).

The wii does suffer from third party support, though. But that has been the case with Nintendo since the Gamecube, really.

There are some aspects of the Wii that only appeal to casual gamers. But there are some aspects that do not. It's this great variety that has made it so successful. Also, it has a ton of things that help make it a friendly console towards kids, with parental controls and "kid" games. Several of the guys I know at work bought one because they have kids, but they actually play it very often.

When I read the concerns that BaB posted in this topic, it brings me back to something said at E3 a few years ago. I think it was a microsoft representative who said "People are going to have two systems in their home - an Xbox 360 and a Nintendo Wii."

This has proven to be true for me and everyone else who doesn't want a glorified blu ray player. I think it will continue to be true in the future. I can already say I will buy the next Nintendo console and the next Microsoft console. You have the 360 for multimedia purposes (movies, online interaction, netflix, demos, etc) as well as for those third party "gamer games".

And you'll have the Wii for a different breed of games. There will be the shallow but fun "party" games like Wii sports, but there are also games for the hardcore gamer, like Mario and Zelda, that are still really different than the hardcore gamer games for the other consoles.

The PS3 price drop isn't "doom" for the Wii. The people who bought a Wii and are still enjoying it probably don't even want a PS3, unless they want a blu ray player.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I'll quote the last thing you said first since it the most relevant question.

Because they're slowing the progress of the industry by being sucsessful at being cheap. I feel that there sucsess is going to cause future generations to move away from higher budget high quality games and focus more on what will sell the most with the smallest amount of risk. Which is kinda what was brought up in the RPG thread.. No companies are willing to take the time out to make a epic good RPG because its a big risk that won't reward as well as making a simple overpriced game or remake for Wii..

And seeing systems like Wii sucseed by purposely moving away from pumping out cutting edge technology is not going to help..

I don't fault them for wanting to make money, that's just the nature of any company. I don't like that they're making money by slowing overall progress of the industry.

I never said I dislike short games, and sports games simulate an actual sport. Its not like they can alter the games much more then the game alters itself in reality. The features off the field/court are a lot more complex then you give it credit for too.

Does this mean I want every game to have yearly releases like Madden? HECK no.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I'm not sure where this comes from. Mass Effect? Dragon Age: Origins is coming out in a few months. Tales of Vesperia. Final Fantasy (roman numerals). Elder Scrolls.

These games will continue to be made because there is a huge market for them, any company would be a fool to ignore it. You can't just flood a market with the same type of game and hope to be successful - people learned this the first time around with MMO's.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Actually, if anything, these types of games are rise, as new technology is allowing developers to create game worlds which are more and more affected by decisions that players make in the game. Look at Fable II (upcoming Fable III), and Dragon Age Origins.

Fable II is one of the best selling games on the 360. I don't think that company is going to up and decide they should make games like the ones on the Wii.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Fable II 2.6 million sales, Mass effect 1.6 million sales.

Respectable numbers but..

Wii Sports 47 million sales, Wii Play 22.98 million sales, Wii fit 21.82 million sales, Mario Kart Wii 17.39 million sales, Super Smash Brothers brawl 8.02 million sales, Mario Party 8 6.72 million sales.

So yeah, they just worked their asses off for their 1-2 million sales when games with a little gimick and short development time smoked them.. I'm not saying that companies will follow suit. But with Wii winning this generation its likely that people will catch on. And I don't really like that idea.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

The Wii isn't slowing the industry, I think it is showing people that not everyone wanted cutting edge graphics. As the old adage goes, bigger is not always better.

The simple fact of the matter is if technology was all that mattered to gamers, the 360 or the Ps3 would have sold at a much better rate. Hell the 360 has been priced cheaper than the Wii for over a year and has yet to ecplise its sale on a single month basis.

And you say, people aren't taking risks. Embracing a new way to play a game seems like a much bigger risk than providing the same experience we've had for the last 20 years with a new shine of paint.

And again, you are boiling down the Wii library to what you want to see... you are making it sound like it isn't possible to make good looking, epic games on the Wii... what is stopping any developer from doing that... I know you are going to bring up the casual games that sell well, but there are dozens upon dozens of them that crash and burn.

And its not like Sony and MS are innocent in this whole affair... Viva Pinata, Buzz, Eyepet, Scene It, You're in the Movies... Home.. etc... etc...

Again, I don't see them slowing the nature of the industry. If the industry wants to move forward it will move forward, but at the current time it doesn't seem like better graphics are the only solution..

I don't like how you lump Smash Bros and Mario Kart in there. And to a lesser extent, Mario Party.

Besides the fact that Smash Bros and Mario Kart are extremely well made games with depth and tons of features, they are also not new franchises, and have always sold well even on the GCN which was not nearly as popular as the Wii.

Wii Sports also shouldn't count because outside of Japan it comes with the console.

Do you know how much time went into each of the games above? I mean I wouldn't expect too much effort from Wii Play.

But the responsiveness of Wii Sports... had to have taken Nintendo a lot of time and testing.
Smash Bros has a comparable time frame to Mass Effect and those other games. And one hell of a budget.
Same with Mario Kart.

The simple fact of the matter is, Wii or not, I think this generation just proved there is something admist in the industry. Stuff like GTA and Halo all sell well out the gate and then drop like a rock because "hardcore" gamers have extremely short attention span so they front load a game, but then tht audience moves on, what does that do for building a decent userbase if you don't know that they will be loyal come next generation, or if they will even buy your games.


But yeah, this thread mostly got off topic, and I guess TheGame is the only one who answered it properly as apparently he does see the Wii as a threat to the industry, but for rather selfish reasons it seems.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

*shrug* if that's how you see it. I wouldn't expect a loyal Nintendo fan like yourself to understand.

I liked where the industry was headed with Genesis/SNES, Psx, and Ps2.. but I don't like the new direction with Wii. And yes it boils down to my personal game preferences and how I would like to see the industry evolve from a technical standpoint.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I'm just a bit curious... what Wii games have you played?

I'm sure we did this same song and dance last generation with the Cube/Xbox/Ps2.

And not that I usually knock someone's personal preferences, but you complain about the direction the Wii is leading the industry, but you yourself wouldn't even buy a HD console until it was priced much much cheaper... and then you bought like GTA IV and Madden... both franchises... that aren't risky... and really don't evolve the industry much...

I'm just saying...

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

A lot of them? Out of 360, Wii, and Ps3 I've played Wii by far the most, followed by 360, and Ps3 the least amount. (And as you know, I own a Ps3 now and have been putting some time into it, but its going to take weeks for me to even catch up to 360, if I don't lose interest first)

So we're switching the conversation to being about what I'm willing to buy?

I didn't feel Ps3, Wii or 360 were worth the price until recently. I can safely say that I've played every game that I've been interested in this generation outside of the new Batman game. In my opinion this is the worst generation of gaming I've been old enough to experience.

So do you have a point ?

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Well you haven't given names or details.
I'm just curious since you found so many cheaply made and gimmicky ones which ones you have actually tried.
I always have a point and a reason, and I think you pretty much nailed it on the head for me.

You don't like where Nintendo is taking the industry,but you don't seem to like the industry's current direction much to begin with.

I mean I am almost certain that anyone of these boards could come up with a handful of games that stand out as extremely extraordinary efforts on any of the 3 major consoles, but you feel this is the worst generation.. go figure.

So let me ask you this, what do you want?

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Off the top of my head...

Wii Sports
Madden (Forget which year, assume 08)
Smash Brothers
Resident Evil 4
NBA live 09
Mario Kart
Zelda

I've also played some strange mini games that I don't know exactly what the name of the actual game was.

That's true, I don't. Thus why I didn't waste my money supporting it from the gate. This year's madden is the first one where I could say that its honestly as good as the Ps2 version, and that's downright sad.

I'm the type to play everything before I buy it, and thanks to friends and family members I got the oppertunity to do that a lot before buying a console myself. I'll admit that I haven't had extended time with XBL which is supposed to be good for 360 (My experience with the voice chat was retarded 12 year old british kids pissing me off).. and I haven't really messed with the Wii's ability to download old content which could be a very nice feature.. But neither of them drew me in enough on their own merits to buy a console for it.

I never said that there's no good games this generation, heck, one of my favorite games of all time came out this gen..

My reply in your "Immersion in Video Games" thread sums up what I go for the most. My favorite genre is RPGs, and I like some action/shooter games. I'm also a fan of sports/racing sims.

For RPGs, I haven't played any good ones this gen yet. The best one I've spent time playing is Oblivion, but I think morrowind is a superior game to Oblivion so it felt like moving backwards. Mass effect is decent, it just doesn't fit my idea of a classic RPG that I enjoy, and I didn't care much for the story (And its far from a 'polished' game).

For action/shooter games.. this gen has been good. I enjoy Halo 3, Gears of War 2, Metal Gear Solid, GTA4, Call of Duty, .. I even liked perfect dark.

Sports games this gen have been lackluster, especially football games. 2k sports has done good with the NBA games.. but EA has dropped the ball on NFL and NCAA Football. This year's Madden feels a lot better though.. so it might look up. I was blown away by Madden 2001-2002 off the bad last gen.

My general excitement level when it comes to playing video games in general has went down. It could just be me.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I feel as if BaB needs to validate his Wii every so often with threads of this nature. :p

I think the Wii is cool. People seem to like it, including those who might not have picked up a game on a console pre-Wii. I think motion controls have huge limitations in serious and casual gaming, but that extends beyond the Wii. I can't believe Sony and Microsoft are jumping on the motion control bandwagon, but fuck...when the Wii is making as much money as it is, why WOULDN'T you make that logical investment.

Do I care? No. Fuck no. The older I get it seems like the less I care about new gaming...I long for nostalgia, social gaming, PC gaming, and vintage shit like Counter-Strike.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I don't really get the frustration that TheGame and other gamers have with the Wii. How does it hold back development? Did the people who bought Halo, Morrowind, Warcraft III, etc. suddenly stop buying those games because there's a Wii now?
There is still a market for 'high quality' titles as you call them (which I think is not a fair description). But the market is slowely realizing that creating better graphics and bigger worlds costs more money that it used to. But games still sell for the same price. So it's less profit. It's just how the market works.

The Wii, DS and I guess PSP motivate the creation of cheaper games, which can still be about as fun. The gnome in the backyard has shown where the money is.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

For once this isn't a validation thread, I am honestly wanted to know if people have an issue with the Wii and its position in gaming.

Like I said this thread got off to the wrong start, but there are people in journalism who want to see this thing fall... and fall hard, and I just don't get that.

I understand not liking something that's understandable, but I don't get why people are so eager to see it wiped off the face of the planet.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I don't know how 'loyal' of a Nintendo fan BaB is. :p

This generation has really disappointed me. Maybe I've just been to busy since I've been in college during this generation, but nothing has really made me jump out of my seat. Even my DS ended up being incredibly disappointing compared to my GBA. I'll remember this gen as:
-Motion Controls
-Super Expensive Consoles
-Red Rings of Death
-Sequels, Sequels, and more fucking Sequels
-Online Console gaming still SUCKS ASS, especially what Nintendo has. The only good thing about the Wii is it is very easy to sync with a Wireless network.
-TF2 (reinforcing my belief that PC Gaming > Console Gaming)

Seriously, the N64/PSX/GBA marked the last consoles that really blew my pants off and tickled my jewels. The Gamecube/Xbox/PS2 left me with some pretty sweet memories...GTA3/Vice City, Twisted Metal Black, Pikmin, Wind Waker, Halo, Jet Set Radio Future....

I just haven't felt impacted in a major way by the new consoles. I remember when the SNES blew my mind (I'm a little too young for the NES). I remember when the GBA blew my mind. When the Genesis blew my mind. I remember going through 2 double A batteries every few days with my GBC....oh man.

This generation is definitely one where I have gone back and dugg up some old PC titles. Been playing me some Counter-Strike...and I have been going back and visiting some classic titles like Sonic and Sonic 2 on the Genesis. And NBA Jam. Damn!

I dunno...maybe I need to go find the fun in gaming. As for motion controls. They are so restrictive....I pretty much share the same thoughts as Yahtzee...
Motion Controls in Casual gaming and in Serious gaming:
Casual
-Works great for some games: Wii Golf
-Is absolutely horrible for other games like basketball, bowling, boxing, canoeing
-Is decent for games like Baseball

Serious
-Can add depth to serious gaming
-Can make serious gaming MORE annoying
-People game because it is a RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY. When people game they want to sit on their ass and do minimal "waggling" as Yahtzee describes it. Amen to that.

Anyway....I can't wait to put that Sony Anal Wand in my ass.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

To me it sounds like a validation thread really. Seems that you haven't moved past your old empty points that may have actually meant something 2 weeks after Ps3 launched. Its pretty much me saying I don't like where gaming has went this gen, while you're trying to make it sound like I'm not qualified to make that judgement for one reason or another.

I actually don't have a problem directly with Wii, other then the fact that it represents a very broken part of the industry in my opinion. You can sit there and say a lot of work went into Wii, which it may have.. but the end result is 5 year old technology being used to make a simplistic shallow game that's nice at parties. (Granted, that's not ALL the games, just the majority of the big sellers)

In my opinion that shouldn't be rewarded.

But the issues Wii has aren't new ones. It just happens to put together exactly what I didn't like about Psx and Ps2, and lost the things that made those systems enjoyable to me anyway dispite their flaws. If Wii was a more hardcore gaming system with more competitive hardware and better support for the games I like (listed in my last post).. then I'd still love it dispite its flaws too.

But instead all I see is the cheap, low priced, rushed, gimmicky system with hardly any of the games I care for being extremely sucsessful. Wii proves that older generation systems won because they were cheap, rushed, and had some attractive gimmick their competition couldn't handle as well. Its just that they happend to have more games that I personally like more on them.

But I'd like to stress again this is my opinion. To me Wii is just the face of what's wrong with the industry. All of the systems have their flaws in my opinion though, its just this thread happens to be about Wii.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Angrist, the Wii hasn't been around for 10 years. We can't look back and see the impact yet.

I agree entirely with The Game, actually. He makes a really, really good point. Nintendo (and developers for Wii games) have taken a super casual route to gaming this generation. Games are short, arcade-ish, and relatively "cheap".

The fear is not that since those games exist now, nobody will buy other games.
The fear is that since casual gaming and "safe development" does/did so well, that more companies that make games for Sony and Microsoft will take that route and move away from the epic titles for shorter, casual games. Because it's all about money.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Trust me on this, I don't need you or anyone else on this board to validate my purchase.
The point of this thread as I stated before was to gauge a reaction to this notion that the Wii is doing more harm to the industry, you get outted because honestly you were the only one who responded directly to the question posed.

Putting the Wii aside, I don't see how creating games that could be enjoyed at parties is necessarily a bad thing.

Games as a whole seem to be getting shorter, not just on the Wii but as the size of the budget increases, people are trying to cram more into less time. I mean Gears of War, Halo, Portal, CoD, Batman can all be beaten in a relatively
long sitting. Hell, I saw Adam work his way through Mirror's Edge the weekend I was visiting.

I think people forget that many games were longer because they had to justify people buying it, nowadays people want shorter experiences so they can move on to the next big thrill. It may not be how many of us operate, but just check the NPDs to see how many games carry over from month to month.

The thing I don't get is why cant the two ideas exist together?

I mean before this generation we have always had games that reached out to a larger audience and was made with a lot less money and effort than other games. Tetris is one of the highest selling games of all-time, I'm almost certain it didn't take millions in research.

Hell look at all the games PopCap sells. Developers and publishers are people as well, they have an audience to feed, they will feed it. I don't see that changing... or we would have seen an exodus of talent and development to the Wii, but we don't.

And also, there is no proven formula for success in this industry. Look how many GTA 3 clones popped up last generation and are probably buried in some desert somewhere never to be heard from again.
Hell, the Wii has a dearth of mini-game and sports collections, you probably never heard of or saw in stores because most retailers wouldn't give it the time of day.

The fact of the matter is, software sells across the board, and I don't see developers changing their mind to go with the risky move. I mean its been 3 years since the Wii has come out and we are still getting "epic" games this fall and earlier into next year, and I'm sure years to come.

I was just talking to Bond and was gonna use a movie analogy, but hard to make since they run opposite, but here it goes.

Superhero movies for the better part of the decade have been big money, The Dark Knight is the 2nd highest grossing movie of all-time, Watchmen made money, all 3 Spiderman and X-men and Wolverine.

Does that mean every movie that comes out is now a comic book movie? No because producers and directors realize that the market can sustain other movies even though it may not make near as much.

The same will happen with video games... and always will.

At least my stance on the matter.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

They can. But that doesn't mean that the fear of it happening will suddenly vanish. I personally don't think that it will happen, but I'm still afraid of it influencing the market to a noticeable degree.

That's such a bullshit point. Tetris? Really? At least pick a game from the relatively modern video game era. Not a game that was made before most of us were even alive. And considering it was made in 1984 on a really super crappy computer, I'm going to bet it's safe to say while it didn't take millions in research, it sure as shit wasn't easy to make - nor did the person know how it would do as a video game, considering it was 1984.


The reason Bejewelled and the like do so well, is because you can play them on A) A phone which you can take places or B) A computer during a desk job. I don't think anyone thinks "Aw, I've got a few minutes at work. Let's plug away at Fallout."

There is easily a formula for success. First off, the reason GTA 3 did better than the clones, was because it was a Grand Theft Auto game. Grand Theft Auto was a big title since it's release in 1997. If this was the very first Grand Theft Auto game ever released, we'd all look at it as some shitty Yakuza remake.

The formula for success is simple, really. First, you need at least a semi-compelling storyline. In lieu of a compelling storyline you can re-hash previous storylines with new features (IE: the Zelda series) and as long as the series is popular enough, it will sell.
Second, and lastly - you need properly placed marketing. No game will take off if not marketed. Nomatter how good it is. Valkyria Chronicles. Hands down an amazing game. Got no publicity.



The producers/directors who don't want to make superhero movies (for the sake of your comparison) are the people who are wanting to still make epic games. The rest of the industry, we can view as everyone who makes superhero movies.

And for the record, it practically seems like every 3rd or 4th movie out these days is a superhero movie, so that was a really poorly picked comparison.

Let's look at the list of comic/graphic novel movies in recent history here:

Note the release dates, and how little there are in the mid 90's, and how many come out between 2005-2011. There is a definite influx beginning to take place, 10-15 years after superhero movies started out in the late 80's.


30 days of night - 2007
300 - 2007
Every alien vs. predator movie
Ant-Man- 2010 (Oh, it's coming)
The Avengers -2011
Every Batman movie.
The Blade series.
Captain America: The First Avenger - 2011
Catwoman - 2004
Constantine - 2005
All of The Crow movies.
Daredevil - 2003
Deathlok - 2011
Elektra - 2005
Fantastic Four - 2005
Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer - 2007
Ghost Rider - 2007
Green Lantern - 2011
The Hellboy movies
All The Hulk movies.
Iron Man - 2008
Iron Man 2 - 2010
Josie and the Pussycats - 2001
Judge Dredd - 1995
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - 2003
Magneto - 2011
The Mask - 1995
Men In Black - 1997
Men In Black II - 2002
Mystery Men - 1999
Nick Fury - 2010
The Punisher - 2004
The Punisher War Zone - 2008
Sin City - 2005
Spawn - 1997
Spider-Man - 2002
Spider-Man 2 - 2004
Spider-Man 3 - 2007
Spider-Man 4 - 2011
The Spirit - 2008
Tank Girl - 1995
Teanage Mutant Ninja Turtles - 1990
Secret of Ooze - 1991
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III - 1993
Timecop - 1994
Timecop: The Berlin Decision - 2002
Thor - 2010
V for Vendetta - 2006
Venom - 2011
Wanted - 2008
Watchmen - 2009
Whiteout - 2009
XMen - 2000
X-2 - 2003
The Last Stand - 2006
Origins: Wolverine - 2009

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Hm. Been a while...

Anyway, I think that anyone who thinks that the Wii is going to be the harbinger of death to gaming is being very dramatic. I see at least ten articles a year about how the Wii is ruining gaming just like I see at least ten articles a year about how PC Gaming will be dead before the year is up. Point is, there are still fantastic games out there and PC Gaming is just as strong as it was five years ago.

I also feel like arguments in this thread are rather pointless. Not everyone is going to like the Wii. I'm sure BaB was just trying to gauge opinion but no one is going to suddenly change their minds on gaming from this thread. Microsoft is doing just fine, even better, this generation and will not be disappearing anytime soon. SONY is having some problems but that is more their mistakes then anything Nintendo is doing. And Nintendo has put out a lot of sh*t games and I don't buy them. I buy the good ones and I enjoy them and my friends enjoy them and Yahtzee doesn't and that's fine.

I appreciate Nintendo, though, for at least taking a shot in a new direction, which is more then you can say about SONY and Microsoft. I love that the big two have IMPROVED what was already established last generation (especially online community) but having an innovator in more then just what is established is necessary. And if the result of all this is that Microsoft improves on what Nintendo has done and makes a bomb-ass battle suit game with Natal, then I'm happy everything happened.

I personally am happy with the generation. Lots of great games. More then I can buy. I can't really ask for anything more.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Maybe the market is temporarily shaken because hardcore developers start making casual games. But there is still a big enough market for hardcore, so it only takes a while before that gap is filled up again.

I also think the casual focus might put some more fun back into games again. Realism isn't all there's to it. Example: A friend of mine only knows Lord of the Rings games. Hack & Slash etc. Then I let him play Metroid Prime 3. He fought Ridley while falling down. He defeated enemies in a very unusual way for him. He said "Wow, this game is really designed as a game!" And I was like :rolleyes: "d'uuh... isn't it supposed to?"

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

That's actually how I feel about video games. There's enough people out there with enough desires.

For me, I like to play GAMES. Realism has its place but nothing makes me happier then sitting with a side-scroller or a 2D fighter, something old school where the purpose of the game was gameplay. Some of my friends play games for the storyline or the innovation, but I don't care of the story is as good as the Godfather, if the gameplay is broken, I get bored. (sort of like Assassin's Creed)

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

I've never blamed a company for wanting to make money. That's all well and good, because hey. You WANT to stay in business, you want to earn a profit. And I'm sure that the Wii was designed with profit in mind because they wanted more and more people to purchase it because it would appeal to what everyone wanted, or at least to everyone in some specific way. I think the biggest problem with the Wii (aside of the lack of true immersion from motion controlling) was the fact that they never delivered with what they promised about motion controls until 3 years later with WM+. It turned what could have been very interesting games into waggle fests that everyone got sick and tired of.

But then there were the people that did things RIGHT. Like Suda51 with the controls for No More Heroes. They made what could have been a waggle fest with that light sword and made it into something a little more interesting by giving the mote a swing when you wanted to give the baddie the business after a slew of attacks. That was fun, and got at least MY adrenaline pumping.

The Wii was more of a gimmick because everyone saw it as a gimmick. "We have a controller that detects motion now! Let's find ways that we can abuse the hell out of it!" And it goes back to what I said about waggle fests.

I dunno. There are the games that shine out and the ones that are hidden underneath all of the shovelware. That's fine. That's been around forever regardless of whether there's more of it to shovel through with the Wii or not.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Somebody should make a shovel Wii game. Or just the art box, that would be awesome.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

First on the movie analogy, it was actually what I was going for as I explained to Bond before making it, the movie industry runs opposite of the video-gaming one at the moment. The big budget, action movies are the more casual movies while the more intimate movies are dubbed "indies" So I know how the analogy works.

The basis of my point is yeah, there are tons of people who makes superhero/comic book movies but a lot of those bomb as well. Same with casual games... or any genre that becomes popular... there are tons of FPSes this generation, do you know how many fell by the wayside? Last gen with GTA clones, this gen with mini-game collections.

And through it all, people still make games for a broad spectrum of people.

And since you want more current examples I guess, Mario Party came out every year between 99 and like 2007, and in that time it was one of Nintendo's most popular franchises, but we still got the likes of 3 Smash Bros games, 2 Mario Karts, Mario Galaxy, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, 3 Metroid Primes, 2 Paper Marios.... etc etc

On the same hand, they launched lines like Animal Crossing and WarioWare, I think they realize it is all about balance, and I'm sure folks will point towards them not releasing much that isn't casual, but then you have to think they blew their wad early in the generation.

NEw Zelda, Mario and Metroid off the bat. They soon followed with Mario Kart and Smash Bros. They resurrected Punch-Out.

But somehow, we end up arguing in circles... as I said this isn't a Wii justification thread or validation or any of that crap. Its been 3 years, everyone has their opinion on the console.

I was just gauging if anyone here viewed the Wii as some in the media do. And maybe I should have laid out more proof than that IGN article, and as Bond noted maybe not place my personal opinions in the first post.

Simple gist of what I was going for, people see the Wii being popular as a sign that games won't ever be the same, and not for the better. I know some of you agree with that assertion, but why does it have to be that way?

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

As I said before, this is not a new issue. Wii just happens to be the first console to go the cheap/rushed route and be sucsessful without appealing greatly to hardcore gamers at the same time. Its just a ticking time bomb before the gaming magizines and hardcore gaming sites were going to come down on it.

Its really hard to word what I'm about to say.. but bare with me.

PsX was out the gate fast and lower priced then its competition, and what it was under powered. However it still offered a format that appealed to the companies that wanted to develop hardcore games. The ability to do cutscene videos, and the extra space vs a cartrege was used to push it above the competition.

Ps2 was out of the gate fast, and lower priced then its competition. And it was not as powerful as Xbox or Gamecube.. however it was powerful enough to compete. There was not mamy games out there in the last generation that could not be reproduced on Ps2. So all the games that appealed to hardcore gamers still could be put on Ps2. (-EDIT- The above listed reasons, besides its release date and price, are not WHY Ps2 won, its why it was still considered to be respectable by the hardcore gaming community)

Now we have wii.. which once again was out of the gate first, and lower priced then its competition. But its not powerful enough to compete.. It won competly off of a gimmick, and its a dump off system for companies that want to make cheap games. However the companies that are out there that really try to push the limits of what hardware can do out there simply can't develop anything worthwhile for Wii.

But dispite the fact that...

...Wii can never get a competitive version of Oblivion, GTA games, MGS games, full Final Fantasy Games, respectable sports sims, respectable fighting games.. MMORPGs... or any of the games that really lifted the bar this gen. ..and new companies can't take a big risk on it, because its old hardware will make anything look bad when compared to Ps3/360...

...It still manages to be far more sucsessful then the consoles that actually have heavy appeal to hardcore gamers.

Eventually companies are going to catch on and see that appealing to casual gamers will make them a lot more money thn appealing to hardcore gamers. Which will eventually result in slower evolution for hardcore games and systems. Of course they'll always still be there, its just that a time is going to come where the only games where you see big risks being taken are on sequals or games with some licence on it.

That time hasn't come yet, but Wii opened the door and exposed the market for what it is.

-EDIT-

And I already know you're going to act like Wii's motion controls were the big advancement.. but that's when it comes back to personal game preference, and where you want to see things go. Look at ign, all the games that got scores of 8 to 10 on Ps3 and 360. How many of those can really be done on Wii? That's just proof that Wii is moving in a different direction... and you see Sony's already trying to copy the motion controls.

Though sixaxis always had the ability for motion controls, its just going to be something Sony works in more with more shallow games to compete with Nintendo... Just take that as a hint of why something that's too casual winning is not going to do any good for the industry. All of the next gen consoles are going to have motion controls, unless Wii dies down and is proven to be a fluke.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Well just gonna correct your facts, the Wii was actually the last console out of the gate this generation as the Xbox 360 was out a year before it, and Ps3 I believe was out 2 weeks before it.

I think you mean graphical competitive because it could do most of those games just fine since the majority of them worked on PS2 and Xbox and those were lesser hardware.... and also...

http://www.metacritic.com/games/plat...woodspgatour10 Respectable sports game
http://www.metacritic.com/games/plat...tionsoccer2009
Another
http://www.metacritic.com/games/plat...ii/maddennfl09
One more

http://www.metacritic.com/games/plat...ackhandedition
Respectable GTA clone and IMO the best version of the game.


A really respectable fighter.


What looks like a fine Final Fantasy game.

And things don't exist in a vacuum I understand that, but if this generation has proven anything is... well graphics aren't everything and they are probably far from the mind of the mainstream audience. So if you create compelling software, which is very much possible, people will buy it.

~Edit for your edit~
Well, I understand its personal preference, which is why this statement would sound redundant, but some people enjoy motion controls, and see how it is possible to enhance current genres and games.

My main beef with the Wii, as I'm sure it is with a lot of folks, is for all the potential that is hidden within in the Wii-mote it usually boils down to button replacement. Developers just substitute pressing A with shaking the controller in any which direction, which isn't the point of it. Or at least not the potential people saw at the end.

And I don't like it anymore, but can you go back to calling them cheap and arcadey or whatever, I loathe loathe loathe the division between hardcore and casual gaming. People make it sound like a plight that not everyone exists hundreds of hours into games a year, and somehow those people are worse off. At least with arcadey and cheap, you are defining the game and not the person.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

Bab I was talking from a technical perspective. Anyone can make games that look like last gen games that are 'good'.. It just doesn't advance the industry as much. And you're right Wii didn't come out before the competition.. In this case it was more about the lower pricing.

Re: Wii: A Threat to Gaming?
 

But even still, the Xbox... arcade at least has been priced lower than the Wii for over a year, and the only way it has been catching up is that the sales of the Wii are slowing down.

I'm not saying price has nothing to do with it, but people don't seem to realize that the Gamecube launched at a cheaper price than the PS2 and the Xbox and didn't fare nearly as well.

Nintendo placed smart money on the latest graphics not always winning out, and they placed the proof in the box. If not for Wii Sports being a pack-in, I'm certain this generation would have taken on a slightly different shape.

And I can understand from most POV while having the least powerful console win would be a disappointment because you fear that next time around, everyone would take shortcuts, and that very well could happen, but I really don't see MS and Sony releasing the same hardware after such a long period or else they would have made motion controls for their current hardware if that was to be their big push next time around.