Universe Creation
 

In an attempt to start an actual good conversation, I bring on a subject that everyone can practically talk about.

How did the universe start?

I'm meaning this to be a scientific talk, so if you just want to step in and say "A higher power" - don't. I don't want this to spiral into something else.


Anyways, personally, I believe the big bang theory - to an extent.

I feel there was everything, all condensed into one little area. Then something sparked it, causing it to explode, and everything as we know it was created. I don't feel the universe is the be all and end all. I think there is something that houses many universes. A gigaverse/superverse - if you will. What if our universe is nothing more than an atom in another universe, that was sent off due to a nuclear explosion?

It's hard to try and grasp. People think of the universe as a 3D state. A reverse sphere, where everything is inside, and donuts around again. Personally, I think the universe itself, can only make visual sense in the 4th dimension. It houses 3D beings, and things, but that doesn't mean it is one itself. I can stick a drawing of a line in a ball, that doesn't mean the ball is a dot.

Anyways, thoughts?

Re: Universe Creation
 

Well if you want to be scientific, then the universe is infinite in all ways since it is accepted law that energy cannot be created on destroyed, only changed. All matter is made of energy in accepted theory, so therefore the universe has always been and always will be.

But honestly, to pose such a topic, eliminate God, and then talk about Superverses and Multiverses... well... God is no more fantastic or speculative than either of those. Your trading one wishful and faithful thought for another based on personal taste.

Re: Universe Creation
 

It's almost a statistical certainty that we're just pawns in somebody's sophisticated artificial simulation.

:-p

*Edit*
Sorry, that's kind of a worthless reply. I'll have something more relevant to say tomorrow.

Re: Universe Creation
 

Strangie, even in science - what was isn't always what is.

You can say the universe is infinite, but that too is just a theory. Albeit a widely believed theory, but still just a theory. The fact it's widely accepted doesn't make it 100% true.

The topic at hand isn't whether the unvierse is, was, or always will be. It's how. I never posed "Will it end". I never said the universe never existed.


So you're saying without a doubt there is just the universe, and that is all?
As Earth was the only planet?
As the sun was never a star?
As the galaxy never existed?
As the earth was the rotational point of everything?

My point is (despite the fact it's not the intention of the thread) things change. Especially in science. That's what makes it science. That's what makes it interesting and new. If you aren't able to think there may be something outside of a Universe, fine. In no way is a Superverse comparable to a God.

Re: Universe Creation
 

Could you elaborate on the 'something' that sparked the big bang?

That's what I find to be the most fascinating aspect. That the 'something' that occurred by chance (or perhaps not) is responsible for all that is now.

Re: Universe Creation
 

I'm willing to believe in the big bang, but where did the energy come from?

Re: Universe Creation
 

It looks silly, but it is a true experiment, though the conclusions drawn from it seem to be all over the place. For example, it doesn't mention the theory that there must be mirror electrons in parallel universes that interfere with the single electrons passing through the slits in our universe to create the interference pattern, thus direct evidence of the multiverse theory.

Re: Universe Creation
 

I think Michael Crichton used that in his book Timeline (about traveling between parallel universes), single electrons get influenced as if there are other electrons, while there are not... which hints at a parallel universe, or another dimension.

Re: Universe Creation
 

Yeah he did. That's actually where I started reading about it, I looked at Timeline's bibliography and bought the Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch and read that. Thought-provoking book especially for the uninitiated like me.

Re: Universe Creation
 

In some sense, you have to look outside of the box.
You can look at it from a lot of ways.
Atoms smashing.
Cells dividing.
Beings reproducing.

Imagine everything in a tiny space. All of infinite energy in a space tinier than a pinhead. Suddenly, it would get overwhelmed, and explode.

Note: I have been drinking - alot - so this may not make sense.

Imagine the universe in the sense of a single celled organism.

There was one cell (all the matter and energy in the universe) suddenly, it exploded (multiplied) and so an, and so on.

I don't know how to explain it in this frame of mind, really.

Re: Universe Creation
 

I think the big bang therory is comparable to god because both instances break the basic rules of science as we know it. Science's base rule is the one about how energy can't be created or destroyed without something causing it.

You're probably thinking of it as Universe =/= Energy, but Energy is what must have always existed and always will. The creation of the universe just goes beyond the rules of science and what man itself can understand. The rules of earth is that everything has a begining, and everything has an end... so people are quick to dismiss the idea that the universe is eternal, weather its someone who believes in god or not. People want the universe or the earth to follow the same rules of having a set begining, and likely having a set end.

When someone says the univerve is eternal, think of it in the sense that energy is eternal.. Either that or someone/something created it. If neither is true, then science as the world knows it now is completly wrong about energy. And if that's so, I'd really like to see how you came to this conclusion.

Re: Universe Creation
 

Not to get all sci-fi, but (this isn't necessarily what I believe, for the record) but think of the pre-big bang matter as an atom. Now something must have caused it, like possibly another "atom" smashing into it. I know something must spark energy to start a reaction.

But there are so many ways you can look at it, that it's mind boggling. Every way you think of it can make sense - relatively - because realistically nothing can be proved 100%, so nobody can really tell you that you're wrong.

Re: Universe Creation
 

Typhoid, I have no clue what anything you wrote here has to do with what my response was. Further more, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about in any sentence you wrote. I'm suspicious that when you wrote this you were taking advantage of you country's liberal drug laws, but let me take a stab at it...

You open the thread by asking how the universe was created, eliminate God, then when an answer is given you say that there is no answer because everything changes?

Why did you pose whe question to begin with? And if your going to take such a philisophical route instead of scientific like you said, why eliminate God as a source?

This thread is silly...

Re: Universe Creation
 

Because you were talking as if it was deadset fact.
The thread isn't meant to be "I think this. End conversation." but a discussion. Possiblities, no matter how strange.

Because I wanted to know people's stance.



Because "The earth is only a few thousand years old, and was made in seven days" wasn't what I was going for.

Re: Universe Creation
 

What do you believe?

Re: Universe Creation
 

I was presenting an opinion. You asked for it, I gave it, based on the scientific basis you gave to begin this thread with. Now you counter it is philosophy in following posts. All I ask for is consistency.

You seem to know so much about what I believe about religion and how it relates to science. Please enlighten us with what you think my views are, because nothing that you just said reflects anything I've EVER said when it comes to science or religion. Please stop putting words in people's mouths and inventing their opinions based on personal bias and need.

If you want to talk science, talk science. If you want to talk philosophy, talk philosophy, but don't then tell people they can't consider a philisophical argument for creation that BILLIONS believe in.

Thats like trying to have a discussion about math and then saying "but act like numbers don't exist."


Hence, the silliness of this thread.

Re: Universe Creation
 

You are insulting my religion. Not all christians believe that.

Re: Universe Creation
 

The quick answer? The universe was created from random fluctutations. Matter and energy exist because nothingness is inherently unstable. The reason there is something rather than nothing is because nothingness is a physical impossibility. Or you could say that nothing is something in and of itself. Mathematically you take zero, which represents nothing, and make it a single element of a set which then ends up being equal to one. So S{0} = 1 and presto! We've just made something from nothing. Isn't that cute?

Theoretically there are "micro bangs" which occur in nature all the time as a result of random fluctuations. The vast majority of these bangs do not have the characteristics necessary for forming a full-fledged universe capable of supporting life. Our universe may seem unique and special, and it would be if it were the only possible universe, however statistically speaking the creation of a universe such as ours is an eventual certainty.

People ask where all the energy came from, but in a sense it doesn't really exist in the first place. If you add up all the positive and negative energy in the universe you end up with a big fat zero. Essentially we are all living on borrowed energy.

While physics does not need God to explain the creation of the universe or anything in it, I believe there is still hope arising from the theory that information(consciousness too, if you will), like energy, cannot be destroyed. Rather it can only change form and evolve. Physicists are increasingly viewing the universe in terms of information (1's and 0's) with matter and energy as incidental constructs.

Re: Universe Creation
 

I never said they do.
I was trying to avoid that aspect of it altogether.]


I never once directed what I said about religion at you.
Nor did I say I know what you think, or how you think it.
Stop looking for a fight, it's childish.

Also:

It's nothing like that, actually.


PS: Thank you, Neo. Finally.

Re: Universe Creation
 

Typhoid, you're a very hard person to discuss with. You keep implying stuff without really saying it, so you can always state "I never said that".

Example:
You say you don't want to talk about God, because you don't want to hear that the world is made in 7 days. When we tell you we don't believe that, you reply that you didn't say we did. But that really wasn't the point and you know it.

Re: Universe Creation
 

How exactly is any of what you described more plausible than God creating the universe? It all sounds well and good, but in the end it can be perceived as being just as much gibberish as you perceive creationism. Full of sound and fury but signifying nothing. Once again, you're just replacing one aspect of faith for another based on taste.

Remember string theory? How amazing that was? Now it's widely considered as crap. I think its "membrane theory" now, which actually fits in with a lot of what Tesla theorized in his later years. But give it five years, and membrane theory will be crap as well.

I'm not saying to stop trying to discover new ideas and aspects of the universe and its creation, but to rule out God as a possible source is bad science. God doesn't have to be the end of the discussion. It can be the beginning of a new one. One that is not greater less than that of "no God", but a companion to it.

You hit the nail on the head, Angrist. Typhoid, say what you mean and mean what you say. You lie to do all of this semantic dancing, and the sad part is you're not very good at it. It doesn;t come off as clever, just confusing to the reader.

Re: Universe Creation
 

That's not it at all.

I say I don't want God brought up in this discussion because I don't want it to turn into a "God created everything" "no he didnt" Yes he did" "No he didnt" sort of thread.

I intended it with no bashing, and sadly - religion is the course of most discussion. Even as is now. I said I didn't want it brought up. Yet someone brings it up, and draws attention to it. I didn't mean it as disrespect, i simply meant it to simplify a thread on a conversational level.

All of you can pick that apart if you wish.

And Stangler, I'm done with you. Seriously. You're just a shit-disturber. You try and start arguments where no arguments are needed, and you latch on to conversations in a debatable sense, which need to attacthment. I know you'll feel the need to answer this. But I won't even read it. So feed your ego, but pay no mind.

Re: Universe Creation
 

This hasn't been a "God created everything" discussion. It has been a "God is at least a possibility for creating everything" discussion. They are very different. Its about keeping options and ideas open, and not closing them. You entered the realm of philosophy, and God is a huge philosophical part of the creation argument, so to exlcude Him is to have a dishonest discussion.

Typhoid, you say I'm a "shit-disturber" (whatever that means), but all I've done is call you our on the words that you've written and your constant back tracking. In essence, I will hold you accountable for what you say when you refuse to recognize your own words. If that angers you, examine what you say, not the person who makes the observation.