Bush is a Goof
 

Did any of you guys see Bush's address about the Palestinian and Israelian war? He kept on saying that the only way peace can happen if evil and fighting is shut down. If violence escalates, or if people are doing things to escalate violence, then peace will never be a reality.


All I have to say is, What the F*ck is Bush talking about? He is saying that peace cannot be reached through violence. Yet, the United States army has bombed the hell out of the Taliban since November! Thousands of Taliban and Al Queda fighters have dies from United States aritillery. But, if what Bush says is true, then there will never be peace with the Taliban, or more importantly, terrorism.

I think that Bush is one big loser, who likes to condtradict his actions with his words. Does anybody have comments on this? If so, post them here.

Re: Bush is a Goof
 

They killed thousands of Americans.. do you want us to just forget about it?

I don't get your point -- Bush said that they need to STOP the fighing in order to gain peace.

See: He kept on saying that the only way peace can happen if evil and fighting is shut down. If violence escalates, or if people are doing things to escalate violence, then peace will never be a reality.

Peace can happen if fighting is shut down. That's not encouraging violence, or even condoning it.

Edit (3/7/02): Of course there is going to be no end to terrorism, or violence, unfortunately -- it's something that is in our world, as sad and as sorry as it is. War is a way to end something, and stop the killing of innocent people. The Taliban aren't innocent, they crashed 3 planes -- remember September 11th? They came on our soil and attacked us. Who's the good and bad there?

Edit (3/7/02): I don't think Bush is doing anything wrong. He's taking the right action against the Taliban, holding them accountable for their actions. He's not encouraging fighting anywhere, he's saying that in the Middle East, the fighting needs to stop, so there CAN be peace.

some people are so jaded...

its sad



if we don't attack the taliban and other terrorist cells, they will continue to attack. destroying terrorist cells is the only way to stop terrorism, that won't even stop it because there will always be new wackos, but it will prevent a lot of attacks if we keep taking the cells out.

unlike the terrorists, the US is not killing innocent people, we are taking out those who pose a threat to the world.

Exactly! The terrorists are the bad people here, and we're stopping the destruction. Some would say we're fighting fire with fire.. but I don't see it that way. I see that we are stopping the terrorists from killing thousands of other innocent people, because of their f**cked up beliefs.

I dont have much of a problem with Bush, i think that killing the pakis is fine, i mean, look what they did to us. But I do wonder wtf he was talking about a couple months ago when he said that mexico was america's most important allie. That pissed me off, i mean, without Canada U.S would be a little ****ed, but so would canada without the U.S. What does mexico have to offer? some noisemakers? like wtf was he smoking when he said that.

What are you smoking gamer? All allies to the US are important allies, some more than others. You really can't "rate" allies.. but some are more important than others.

Okay... Can you guys read again what I posted, please? I said that : Now, is there not violence happening in Afghanistan? And who is on the offensive? America. Bush does not see peace happening with more violence, though. So, Bush is maybe a little confised, or something like that.

And, I was talking to Shooter on AIM. He says that the Taliban are terrorists and should be eliminated. Sure, the Taliban who carried out the plan of 9/11 are terrorists, but I cannot say that the ones in Afghanistan are, unless they took part in other terrorist acts. Now, Shooter also said that it is okay to kill terrorists. So, the violence happening in the MIddle East is wrong, which almost everybody agrees on. Now, is it okay to kill a terrorist? I think not.

Terrorists are still people, still citizens of the world. I think that God has forgiven them for the wrong that they have done, so killing them is like killing innocent people, IMO.

There's where my opinions become different.. I'm not religious, I don't believe in god, and I don't see all sins as equal (as Nate has said over AIM)..

Well, I do not want this to become a religious battle... So I will just say that I think that that although these terrorists did horrible acts, I forgive them. But I guess my opinion probably won't count to some of you or these government people.

No, your opinion counts.. everyone's does. Doesn't mean it's going to change anything though.. that's how life is :unsure:

So, Joeiss, are you saying that we shouldn't have gone into the war against Al Quaeda and the Taliban?

Look, I wasn't happy about the war. I'm not happy with the way Bush is looking for new targets in North Korea or Iraq.

But nonetheless, destroying Al Quaeda is the right thing to do. Bush said that the only way to end violence is if fighting and evil are shut down. Do you really think Al Quaeda is going to do that? Do you seriously think for one instant that Al Quaeda fighters are going to just lay down their weapons and ask for peace?

If you do, you are naïve. They have shown that they are capable of incredible wrongdoing against innocent civilians and that moreover they would happily do it again if they are given the opportunity. I ask you again: do you really think Al Quaeda is going to be the one to stop the fighting?

So if not them, who else to do it but us (us being the people against Al Quaeda, that is)? And how are we going to stop Al Quaeda from committing more acts of terrorism? I can only think of one way, and that is to kill them. If you've got a better idea, one that will work, I'm all ears. But I've taken a long, hard look at this, and I've come to the conclusion that there really wasn't any other way. Al Quaeda has to be wiped off the face of the earth. Otherwise, more innocent civilians will die. Do you get it? By letting Al Quaeda continue to exist in its current form, you would advocate putting thousands of innocent civilians at risk. Never mind whether God has forgiven them or not. That's between Him and the individual people. Unless people are punished for their transgressions or prevented from committing further atrocities, all of civilization will collapse. And I'm pretty certain that God wouldn't want that.

gamer: if you take an economics class, you will find that the U.S. economy is intimately tied with Mexico's. Not only are there thousands of immigrants taking on jobs here that nobody else will do, but there are also billions of dollars in goods that the two countries trade. If all ties to Mexico were broken off, the American economy would go into one of the deepest recessions in history. Vicente Fox is right: the U.S. would not be able to survive the way it is without Mexico.

Yes... And people's opinion's should be what their actions are. But, Bush's actions are not what his opinions are... So what he said today is pretty stupid, IMO.

So whatever someone believes should be a reality?

I believe that everyone should have good health -- doesn't mean it's going to happen.

I'm sorry, but if you think politicians should disregard the people's views and adjust themselves accordingly, you are doubly naïve. Politicians should have some opinions, yes, but they also have to be realistic. They are representatives of the people, and as such, they should take the public into account when considering their actions.

That is exactly what I was trying to say, but I can't take a religious standpoint from this..

I am not sure. I still do not know for certain what my outlook of it is... And I guess that I will not know for a while maybe. But, I am leaning towards the opinion that America is doing the right thing. Because like you said, eliminating the Taliban will eliminate more deaths in the end. But... This post isn't about me...

Neither am I. I think that America wants to fight too much, and wants to use all their power. But, it could be good if Housin (sp?) is defeated or something... Or arrested... or at least if they let the UN inspect their weapons... Or something like that.

I do not think that the Al Queda will do that. But, Bush said that escalating violence will not lead to peace. But, Bush's army is escalating the violence in Afghanistan. So, how can peace come about it if America's leader doesn't think it will?

No, again. I might even think that US are doing the right thing for eliminating the Taliban and Al Queda network. Terrorist organizations will not want peace, they want the opposite. But, what Bush said today, I would think that America would not be violent towards them.

Sorry, I do not have another idea. I wish I did, however. If we kill the Al Queda, many more lives might be saved . But, I see that a death is a death. I am not quite sure if I agree with the killing = less killing in the future aspect.

I think that God has let everything that has happened for a reason. Who knows... Maybe 9/11 happened so terrorism could end. Hopefully that is true. I just wish that Bush would see eye to eye with his opinions and his actions.

I am sorry, but Bush is not just a politician, he is the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth. Let's just say that Bush did not want to send troops to beat the hell out of the Taliban in Afghanistan, he wanted to do what he proposed to the Middle east countries. Maybe he is living his dream in other countries.. Because if he fails, its not like Americans are dying, right?


I would think that the President of the United States of America's opinion would count for alot of marbles. So, I think that a person of his status who has opinions like what he said today should eb a reality. I do not think that single people are more important than others, but that is how the majority of North America feels. So, if anybody should have alot of say, it should be President Bush.

How exactly is Bush escalating the violence? Answer me that.

I see a fundamental error in your thinking. To you, the battlefield consists solely of Afghanistan. That's just not true. The terrorist attacks of September 11th did not take place in Afghanistan, but they are as much a part of this war as the bombing of Kandahar. Bush didn't escalate the violence. He didn't initiate the conflict. Al Quaeda did that. Shouldn't Bush do something about that?

Moreover, Afghanistan is more peaceful than it has been in years. It still has enormous problems, but most would say that it is better off now than it was last year. Has Bush really escalated the violence even in Afghanistan?

Let's say somebody kills your mother. You know who he is. He has said that he will kill your father next.

Will you idly stand by and let him do it because you don't believe in killing to prevent further violence?

Let's suppose you give him the benefit of the doubt. Then he kills your father and targets one of your siblings next. Will you still take no action?

Remember, Al Quaeda not only masterminded the September 11th attacks but has also bombed U.S. embassies and military bases, resulting in hundreds of deaths. Should the U.S. stand idly by and not defend itself?

If anyone killed ANYONE that i care about they would be dead, whether its right away or later on in life, they would pay for what they had done. I beleive that bush has reason to kill terrorists and i think it is not a problem, i actually agree with it. Like Xantar said, if someone killed you mother and said they were gonna kill your father and you knew who they were would you do nothing about it? I think not.

How is Bush escalating violence? Easy. 1) Bombing the hell out of Afghanistan. 2) Sending troops to eliminate the Taliban soldiers. 3) America already killed thousands of Taliban.

Those three reason are how Bush has escalated violence.

Yes, America soil was part of the battle ground. I realize that. But, Bush says that in Palestine/Israel can have peace if they stop the violence. Again, why doesn't USA do the same thing? Taliban initiated the violence, yes, but America has done alot of damage to Afghanistan. So I do not see how more destruction of lands can win anything.

Wow. That is one hell of an example. And you know what? I seriously don't know what I would do. Sorry that I cannot answer that question.

Well, America did not start to get serious about terrorism after it happened on main land America. I seriously do not think that America thought that anybody would have the guts to attack them on home land. America did stand by and not defend itself. And September 11 was the result.

Joeiss: Just be glad I'm not the president of United States.

Haha... I would hate to see what you would do! Thank God Chris is a citizen of Canada! A country with no real power!

Lol.

Hey man, watch what you say!:one: :devil: :killpika: :link2:

Re: Bush is a Goof
 

Couldn't have said it better!!! :D:D

Angrist--->:Puke::usa:<---Bush
Joeiss --->:Puke::usa:<---Bush

I would let report him and get him arrested. I wouldn't kill him.

Okay, fine. What if you couldn't get him arrested? What if you were the only one who could take direct action?

Because I don't think you seriously believe the U.S. can get Al Quaeda arrested, do you?

Easy there buddy. I am a Canadian too. And all I am doing is stating a fact. Canada is not powerful. America is.

Look, you people can flame me or whatever.

After the "shock" of September 11th, i have prettty much come to a conclusion that America had it coming.

After so many years of sticking there noses in other countries problems and wars to be " Peacekeeper". The Arab communities had just had enough.

If i were to pick out the most horrific event in history, America would be the culprit.

I say we start off in Vietnam, causing 50,000 people's deaths, sound about right? even at one point a group of AMERICAN soldiers strolled through a village and killed every single living thing in the place, Women and Children included. The incident was called the My Lai massacre.

Not to mention the Brain child of an idea " Agent Orange"
:rolleyes:

To this day it is still causing birth defects in babies who's parents were exposed to it as kids themselves.

I agree with Marc

America (especially BUSH) keeps on saying that it's the best country. No wonder they got Bin Laden angry!

Sure we're not. You think just because they're a member of Al Qeada, they're guilty of something? If you watched the news, you would realize that these plans were pretty secret. The only ones who knew were the ones involved. Now we go around killing everyone we see, and many of them who were never involved.

The Taliban? They never did anything to kill us. They don't pose a threat to the world. They just gave Al Qeada guys money, and now we shut down the entire government, killing any member who we see.

It would be like accusing a member of the mafia of murdering the president, and then killing every member of the mafia, even though most of them knew nothing.

Welcome to war. We kill innocent people, we always do. Don't ever try to deny that America is killing innocent people, because we are! Every single war involves the death of innocent people. WWII, you know how many Germans we killed? Don't tell me they were guilty of anything, they were just fighting for their country, the same thing the Americans were doing. Sure, Hitler was guilty. The government people in Germany were guilty, but to solve that we went and killed thousands of German troops, who are not responsible for anything that Hitler did.

War involves killing innocent people. Don't let Bush tell you that we are the good guys and only killing people that are guilty, when they struck and killed innocent people. It just ain't true.

That happened a lot of times. Rapes, torching the village, killing everyone they come across. The war was one we should've never got into, but it did cause many of our soldiers to lose their mind (literally). Just look at how many thousands of people haven't recovered from Vietnam. These men got hit hard, and went insane. It's not really the fault of the American soldiers, they had gone insane fighting a war, and going insane with a gun doesn't end pretty.

Thank you gekko, you reminded me of something else.

The americans also funded a terrorist organization, a little group called the I.R.A

Or Irish Repulblican Army

Which has been harassing northern ireland for over 25 years.

It's not just the way the Taliban is harboring Osama Bin Laden, and are associated with Al-Queda, it's also because of their practices, how they hold mass public executions, and how they treat women like garbage. If we don't do anything, women will continue to be treated as inferiors, raped, and abide by laws that are unjust.

Sometimes being associated to a group can make you guilty of something. When a gang kills someone and are caught, not only the person who shot the gun is in trouble with the law, but all the other people that are a part of the gang. It's not as if they were forced to be a part of this, like a couple innocent citizens of countries like Germany or Russia during WWII. They chose to be a part of it, knowing what the consequences could be.

Almost all countries say that theirs is the best, and if it isn't economically, politically, or militarily, they'll find some other reason. Like they have the best people, the best scenery, or the best country in God's eye. It's natural to point out what you're good at. Great Britain used to have the greatest Navy, and had colonies all over the world. They made it clear to everyone that they were the best. When Rome was at it's prime they made sure that everyone knew that they were superior. Egypt also went on and on about how they were the greatest country to every grace the earth during the time of Abraham. All these countries were the greatest at their time, and bragged about it. Is it the right thing to do? No, but if any other country was the most economically, politically, or militarily powerful, they'd do the same. It's unfortunate.

Why do other countries that aren't as strong in certain areas get so pissed? Is it because of jealousy? Really, ask yourself what it truely is. If France was the most powerful and flaunted it, I'd be jealous and go on and on about how arogent they were. America is making a mistake by saying how great they are, but other countries would do the same if they were in the same circumstances. It's human nature to point out what you're good at. If you're good at sports, you'll try to show off whether intentional or not. If you're rich, you'll get a nice car and house to show it off to everyone.

Well, I don't really have an awful lot to add to what Marc and gekko have said.

As a pacifist, I am opposed to violence in all forms, yet I do realise that it is, at times, neccesary in order to protect others.
However, I see the reaction of America to the whole 11/9 thing as just a teensy weency bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Like gekko says, most of the Taliban had/have no part in the 11/9 attacks, and yet America happily charges in guns blazing killing every member of the Taliban it can find. If the US were only trying to find the culprits, why would they need a whole army? A small stike force could have done it. But no, the states went at it like an angry bull in a china shop and sent in a not inconsiderable force to weed them out. And, quelle suprise, the Taliban saw it as an attack on their territory and they all rallied around to try and fight america off.
America didn't make this a mission to seek out the culprits. They did it to eliminate the Taliban (who, as I've said before, were empowered by the US in the first place). They're either trying to get rid of their embarrassing mistake or they're they've appointde themselves the moral guardians of a country they should have nothing to do with. If it were a colony or some other place where American citizens resided in large numbers, then such actions might be rendered more acceptable. But this is not the case.
The government just wanted to be seen to be Getting Something Done. And if this involves lots of guns, tanks and an excuse to wave a flag about even better. The american public were begging for blood, and by jove they got it.
I just don't believe America had the right to make such a meal of the whole thing (cue: flame, flame, flame).

Sure, I think the elimination of the Taliban is a good thing - as a whoe, they're a "government" who preach bigotry and hatred to everyone who doesn't agree with them. If they take enough of a dislike to you (or if you happen to be female) then it's really quite easy to find yourself getting stoned to death as you walk down the street. I for one was pretty chuffed that they have (eventually) lost their position of power over Afghanistan, at least for the most part, even if their idealogy still lives on to an extent. But what for one minute gave the Americans the right to do that? I can understand America giving Afghan soldiers money, weapons and training to fight off the soviets with (though I still can't understand why they knowingly funded a group renowned to be a bunch of psycho bampots who were itching to be given money, weapons and training to take over the country), but i can't understand why America thinks it has the right to invade a country on the pretext of finding a small bunch of terrorists and kill them all. Maybe the "America got them into that mess, therefore we'll get them out of it whilst pretending to do something else" aspect of it.

And why is it that america only realises terrorism exists when it actually happens to them? Other countries have been sufferring terrorism for decades, centuries - and yet it only seems to exist when the WTC goes the big firework? Is it that all previous acts of terrorism were OK cos they were only say 50 people dying at once? Or is it that America feels the need to assert its superiority over others? Or even that America thinks it's done nothing wrong that could have made all these people resort to terrorism? I wonder. I don't condone terrorism by any means (quite the opposite) but to me America has taken such a "holier than thou, we have done and can do no wrong" attitude that it makes me sick.

Terrorism kills innocent people.
The backlash also kills innocent people.
Another retaliation occurs.
Go to line 1 and repeat.
Where does it all end?


You'll have to excuse my incoherence. I am tired. Expect a more flameworthy post soon.

Don't quote me on this... But I think that I heard CNN say that the anti-aircraft rockets that the Taliban are using were given to the Taliban to fight the Soviet Union back in the day. So, America f*cked themselves over with that if this is true.

It's true, but they weren't given specifically to the Taliban, but to the Afghan fighters at the time. The Soviets were around during the late 1980s, and early 1990s. So the Taliban weren't even in Afghanistan at the time, most were still in Pakistan. The Taliban didn't even become a real issue until 1995. So yes the anti-aircraft rockets that the Taliban are using today were from America, but they weren't specifically issued to the Taliban.

Bush was never ready to handle all this 9-11 crap. Who was?

Can you reitirate that? Do you mean, "If Bush was never ready to handle all this 9-11 crap. Who was" or are you making a statement that George Bush wasn't ready?

I think that I am ready to handle all this 9-11 crap.


:hmm: