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From how you've seen things play out for healthcare, who wasn't being bipartisan?
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I know its probably hard to come off unbias since everyone knows everyone's opinions/party at this point.
But I just feel that the poll is leading. Like both options kind of make the Rebs look bad, but that's just me. |
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I'm just curious about what the forum thinks. |
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I think both sides didn't want to work with one another, but for a very legitimate reason. As was shown in the health care summit, both of these parties are coming to this issue from different planets.
The Democrats want to have centralized control of the health care system to mandate coverage and cost. The Republicans mainly want to open competition, increase choices and limit legal damages to allow market forces to create a consumer friendly private marketplace to lower costs and increase coverage. The philosophy is so divergent there really is nothing to compromise about, as pretty much any acceptable compromise by either side completely destroys their point of view. If I had to "blame" one side over the other, it would be the dems because: 1) They had the supermajority and I believe that puts the responsibility of inclusion on them as they could have just as easily completely ignored their opponents (and they would have IMO if not for the public outcry against the plan) 2) Republicans were never invited to help create the bill, only to either vote on it or add limited amendments. 3) The Republicans actually got bipartisan support for their opposition to the bill. Not one Republican was in favor of what passed. 4) Instead of trying to create a more moderate bill once they lost the supermajority, the Dems decided to use a budgetary process tactic to avoid a filibuster, and then used another process measure to "deem and pass" once it passed the house so they could avoid any further debate on the subject. This does not seem like the actions of a party that much cares about working with the other party. |
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If you are going to point fingers, let's also say that the Rebs didn't help themselves by using their fear tactics. I mean after a while it was difficult for them to come to the table with anything reasonable without completely scrapping the bill.
At least how I read it. |
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Meanwhile the Dems offered fake numbers to the CBO so that they could pretend their bill cuts costs and deficits. Think about that: They basically lied to the CBO, the opposition party and all of us on national TV, so that we would tolerate their bill. They went into a bipartisan summit quoting those fake numbers that the opposition knew were fake. How do you compromise with a party that holds out an olive branch while at the same time lying right to your face? As I said, if you want to point fingers, both sides can be held accountable, but in balance I have no idea how anyone could hold the Republicans more accountable for the lack of compromise. |
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HCR was never a bipartisan goal, so I think it's natural for Repubicans to feel cheated. On the other hand, Dems did try fairly hard to include Republicans in the debate and in the vote. Whether you agree with how it ended up, there's a fair bit of compromise in the bill.
Republicans even went so far as to refuse a meeting they were invited to by the Democrats - and then publicly blamed the Democrats for not wanting to meet. I just don't see how Republicans can complain about a lack of bipartisanship from the Dems when they themselves have repeatedly obstructed for the sake of personal gain. I mean, they threatened to filibuster over 100 pieces of legislation in one session, far more than it's ever been used since its inception. And so we moved to Deem and Pass, a perfectly legal method for passing legislation that the Republican party's used 35 times in one session and over 100 times in all. People are going to feel wronged for a long time on this one either way. |
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And human self interest stories are not the same as death panels, gov't funded abortions, going through gov't agents to get any type of treatment, cutting Medicare, killing grandma and turning this into a socialist country. |
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Also, try not to confuse conservative blowhards with Republican public servants. Palin/Limbaugh/etc. was never a part of this debate and their stupid comments shouldn't be considered. If you listened to the debate at the health care summit, the Republicans did not make any asinine statements about death panels or grandma dying, but the dems did talk about the poor dying. The republicans did talk about corruption and how the numbers don't add up, though, and still no one has really addressed either of those issues. |
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I think what's really broken is the Media.. Anyway, for the topic.. I don't think there's really a right or wrong answer. I think it's a matter of perception. But I think, due to the obtructionist actions and language used by the republican party.. it's hard for me not to blame them. |
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According to a recent poll:
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I don't remember the dems saying that people were going to die - they were saying it was possible for people to lose everything they had worked their entire lives for because they didn't have coverage.
I watched the entire process the other night, and I don't remember anyone saying people were dying - other than the fact that a person may not seek care because they were afraid of the cost. And Republicans are acting like they never used "deem and pass", the "nuclear option", "self executing rule", or whatever other names they've cooked up to make reconciliation sound scary, during their time of power. But you did have people shouting 'baby killer'. And before that you had republicans reading fake memos. But like I said in the other thread, I'm happy they forced it through, one way or the other. Republicans did a lot of things I hated during their time - I don't understand why it should fall to me to be the better person and give up the things I want during a time when we finally have the majority - because the other side isn't going to do it when they get power back. |
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As for the tit for tat argument regarding reconciliation and deem and pass (two separate things), well that's yet another red herring. These procedural tactics have NEVER been used for this type of legislation, its a budgetary process, and most of the time when they were used there was bipartisan support. Quote:
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Wasn't me :)
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http://news.harrisinteractive.com/pr...&Category=1777 I believe you're thinking of a poll from September: http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot....ew-jersey.html |
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Hey, there's an "M" in there someplace so good enough for me... :)
TML, looking at the more recent polling, it has the same problem as the one from September. According to that poll 16% of liberals think he's a Muslim, 15% think he's a socialist, and 12% think he wants a terrorist attack to excuse him talking over the country. Oh, and yes, 8% of liberals this Obama is the Anti-Christ. Those are all significant percentages that I think are WELL overblown. This poll is an excuse to write a controversial book. I wonder if the poll asked if he was an alien, and what those percentages were... The current poll is just as laughable as the September poll. I'd love to see the same methodology applied to GWB. How many liberals thought he was a fascist? Retarded? A monkey? EDIT: I should repeat that I do see how the Republicans were not helpful in creating an atmosphere for compromise, but I also repeat that there was never room for compromise to begin with. It was a partisan game from start to finish. Right now both of these parties are on different planets, ideologically. |
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This post is completly out of boredom.
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I really don't think that can be blamed on the democrats.. Quote:
I'm pretty sure there wasn't "bipartisan" opposition to the bill for the same reasons. And as for the last point.. introducing unreasonable tax cuts, not putting it up for debate, and not even pretending to be interested in what the opposition has to say about it... then putting it up for vote instantly with the same "tactic" the dems used for healthcare... and saying 'if you don't vote for this you're for raising taxes, and we're going to pass it if you vote for it or not'... worked fine for getting votes. I wouldn't personally call it bipartisan though. But then again.. it got the votes. So like I said earlier.. it's a matter of perception. |
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