If you are refering to me saying "there is no god it's crap" and stating it as a fact then I would like to see you point it out.

And besides, even if people HAVE said "there is no god it's crap", why do you have to retaliate with what you said? Surely you are intelligent enough to see that two wrongs don't make a right?

You have to swallow your pride and avoid taking the sucker punch I'm afraid...

I observe the pyramids with my eyes.
I hypothize the pyramid is there.
I predict that they are there.
I kick the pyramid to see if it's there.
I break my foot-- it's there.

Have you ever thought about what the world would be like without religion? Can you even comprehend that? From religions we aquired: our time scale-- 7 days in a week, 12 months in a year, AD and BC. We got explorers finding new worlds under the pretense of evangilism. The reading and writing system we have today was used by the clergy to teach Biblical scriptures. The enlightenment, the discovery of America in some ways, the Rennisiance [sp?] shall I go on? As stupid as you may think religion is, noone can deny that it has done huge things to shape the world as it is today, and no matter if you believe in God or Allah or Dvjzpurhanwhatever, you cannot overlook the fact that we would not be anywhere today without religion.

You can go have fun, but next time you read a book, or listen to music or even look at the time of day, remember, without religion, most of that stuff would be next to useless.


But there is some logic to what you said earlier-- we've been progressing in the ways of science, and logically, that progression will go on. And that progression may well include a logical explanation for the creation of the universe with or without God.

True faith is believing in something that you cannot prove.


KTHX, TYVM. Now STFU or GTFO. That pretty much sums up what I have to say about that. If you want to have an opinion about something, at least have some basis. And the Bible isn't the only document that has mentioned Jesus. Jesus wasn't just "made up." I know that for a fact, and I doubt that anyone can disprove that. Understand I'm not saying that he was God, but I can garuentee that Jesus did exist at one time or another.

Now look throughout history at the various religions. Do you really believe that they were all just "made up" by one man who felt like keeping his "village" in order? As I said before-- think before you post.


Minor cult? See above about the things that Christianity and religion in general have brought into the world. I'm not going to put words in your mouth and say that you called Christianity a "minor cult" but with all due respect-- that's certainly what it sounded like you said.


Let's play a game. It's called telephone. I'll wisper something in your ear, then you wisper the same thing in another person's ear, and so on. After we pass it through four thousand people, that last person will tell what they heard to me. Do you think it'll be the same?

WAIT!!!!! Let's not just wisper it to each other-- let's wait fifty years after the person told us to pass it on. And not only that, but let's also mix this in with nievity [sp?] and superstition that is virtually non-existant today.

Do you see where I'm going with this?


A monomer is formed by the right combonation of gasses combined with just the right electrical current. They can be formed that way-- it has been tested and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

A polymer is a chain of over five hundred or so monomers. A polymer is one tiny part of a protein.

Monomers are constructed as both left and right handed-- in approxamately equil numbers. For a polymer to form, all the monomers must be right handed. If one left handed monomer gets in on the chain, then the whole chain is useless and dissolves. Using the knowledge, the odds of two right handed polymers joining are one in two. The odds of three joining and being right handed are one in four. The odds of four joining are on in eight.

Assuming that five hundred have to be joined, the odds of two hundred of the five hundred monomers joining together and all being right handed are about-- one in 6.427752177*10^60. The odds of three hundred are about one in 1.629628781*10^91. Keep in mind that in order to form a protein, there must be hundreds [I think] of polymers. But for a moment, assume that you needed-- five is a fair number. To find the odds of five polymers being formed, we multiply the odds of each polymer being formed together. It would seem that the power raises by about thirty for each hundred monomers that we add on, so assuming this is the case-- the odds of one full monomer forming are about one in 1*10^150. The odds of five forming would be about.

:: Does some sort of calculation. ::

One in 1*10^75937500000. And that, my friend, is a number so large that you cannot possibly comprehend it. In case you're wondering, mathmatical statistic impossibility occures at 1*10^600. Good luck with those odds.

And keep in mind that the very science you use to back your statements found those numbers.

And you think that other planets really defeated those odds?


Next post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Bible, wasn't there also a flood? Could a worldwide flood possably destroy small parts of the world? Could that be where eden went? Maybe the satellites overlooked it because it doesn't exist anymore.

Apples? Where did you get that idea? Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve ate the "apples" of good and evil. I must have missed that when I read through the creation story fifteen seconds ago so do tell.

And for posts like this one, please know what you're talking about before opening your mouth.


I've never heard my church say that God can forgive any sin, but there has been alot of debate about this. But try and remember that these are people saying this, and people are wrong-- more often then not sometimes. I don't trust everything that every scientist says, and you shouldn't trust everything that every pastor says. The best thing to do would be to read the Bible looking for where it says God can forgive any sin and make your own conclusion.

About the sin that couldn't be forgiven-- this was Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I honestly forget the referance right now, but I'll look it up later. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit happened when someone saw Jesus in the flesh, knew who he was, had seen his testimony, and realized beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was who he said he was, and still attributed his works to Satan. So technically, that sin cannot be committed at this time. I believe, though, that all other sins-- no matter how horrable-- can be forgiven.


If someone broke into my house with a knife and held it to my throat, and I pulled out my gun and shot him dead on the spot, he cannot be sorry and he cannot ask for forgiveness. But you still can forgive him (for whatever good it'll do). We don't have to ask for God's forgiveness to get it. Otherwise, we'd all be going to hell because we can't remember every sin we've ever commited.


If you're dead, would you really care? :: Raises an eyebrow. ::


What makes you think that humans are the worst creatures around? How many cats developed science? How many dolphins have written shakespear? How many termites can say that they've ever made a concious choice? What makes you think that we're the worst?


Justin-- about your next post-- let me just say, no. God doesn't require that we ask forgiveness for sins to get into heaven.

Matthew 3:11 "'I baptize you with water for repentance . But after me will come one who is more powerful then I, whose sandles I am not fit to cary. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."' (The fire is symbolic of the future judgement incase anyone is wondering.)

At this time, baptism became a symbol. It is not neccisary for salvation and is a declaration of your faith-- nothing more.


What a stupid question. That would be a waste of cheddar!!!


Read Job and tell me how vague the descriptions of the bohemoth and the leviathan are.



I've heard that question so many times it's not even funny. Assuming that God is real and he created the universe, how would he create it? I would think he would give it some sort of age. Adam and Eve were not created as babies, the animals as cubs/eggs, and the trees as seeds. If that were the case, then everything would have died save a few termites who would have gone on to write Shakespear. God would have had to add age to the earth-- so why not the rest of the universe? I don't expect anyone to accept this, but assuming that there was a God, then it would make sense that he woudl add age to what he made, wouldn't it?


Well I'm happy to see that you acknowledge that he existed no matter what his diety was. And don't take this as condesending in any way please. I just see people who deny the existance of Jesus, Christ or not, alltogether and it's-- refreshing to see someone who's not that nieve.


Realize that God isn't a babysitter. It's not his responsibility to control us. Granted He'll intervene once in a while, but it's not His job to control us as I said before.

One in 1*10^75937500000 is easier to believe then God?


And I am tired of people trying to convince me that there is no God. But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with.

:: Double take ::

The hell are they teaching you in that school of yours, boy? What makes you say that?

A year ago, I found my best friend kissing the girl I liked at my school. I was angry-- but that didn't end my love for him (as friends.) That didn't stop me from following her around like a puppy dog and getting nervous when she talked to me.

Justin, I think you need to rethink alot of what you believe.



This is sad but true. Many Christains and hypocrats [sp?] and don't practice what they preach. That's another thing that I doubt anyone can deny.


Then why should we have to prove something right to prove it is real? It all goes back to this little arguement which has been going around and around throughout the whole topic.


Your senses are fooling you. Space is actually a bright pink zebra with four heads and three hooves on each foot.

Oh it's not? Then prove me otherwise.


I neither said or implied that I knew. I'm not sure where you picked that up-- but it's-- quite flawed. And you should probably check your logic on that one.



About the contradiction-- keep in mind that many of the things written in the Bible were in context. For example.

<<<17. Jesus told a man in Mark 8:34 that "whosoever will come after me,let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me." The obvious question is: What cross? He hadn't yet died on the cross. There was nothing to take up. That man would have had no idea what he was talking about.>>>

The cross was always a symbol of death. Jesus' was not the first crusifiction [sp?] and his wasn't the last. Back then, a cross was a symbol of death. They knew what he was talking about. Most of them had viewed multiple cruisifictions, and knew very well what the cross was.


And this again goes back to proving God wrong or right.



I'm not going to try to explain God's mentality because frankly, I can't. And neither can you. I'm not sure exactly what God is thinking or was thinking when he left his hat in the street, and I'm not about to claim that I do. And God's people were not always happy worshiping him. He never once said we should be.



I'm not sure exactly where you're coming up with that, but I still choose how to live my life. I can still judge people on character alone. I still control myself. I choose by my own free will to live a life in accordance with the Bible and it's teachings. I choose to find my opinions about people by who they are and not what they believe. Dont believe this? Well then IM my best friend. He's gay-- but that doesn't stop us from being friends. I know what he does is wrong, but I don't let that stop me from loving him (as a friend).


Under the same train of thought, if I find a watch in a field, I don't just assume it evolved there. I know that someone had to have taken time and effort to make that watch. Look how perfectly the earth works and tell me that there was no thought or effort put into it and it happened by chance.


"I'm trying to see from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass." (Directed at noone in here really-- I just thought that might go nicely after that little quote)


There was a case a while ago of a recently dead snail being dated at over five million years old. There are many other accounts of it being wrong, and I'll look for more later.

I do know how carbon dating is done. By comparing the amounts of the carbon isotopes, I believe. But then you have to assume that the amount was equil in the first place. What's to prevent more of one of the isotopes then the other?


Okay, my hands are sore and I think this post is gonna take about ten pages, so I'll just post it and get back to the rest later.

LeonMagnolis, you are making some great posts. In fact, I'm about to give you some doubloons as soon as I finish this one.

But please don't feel as if atheists are attacking your religion and trying to convert you to atheism. This is just a discussion about what we believe in and why. We all started this knowing that there's no way we are going to change anyone's beliefs. All the atheists are doing is explaining their point of view. If that involves pointing out what seems to be a contradiction in religion that you don't see as a contradiction, just explain it right back to them.

no i wansn't implicating you, it was someone else. *goes to find it* d'oh! xantar was right, it does say believe. i'm sorry xantar.

oh, and pickachu, i figured out the confusion on the religion thing! for some unknown reason when religion was brought up i only thought about the religions who base their beliefs on the bible. i thought his question meant like which out of those is the right one. now i understand your criticism. sorry for the misunderstanding. i meant like lutherans, catholics, mormons, baptists, etc. like which of those is right.

now to answer the question which religion(all religions) is right, well, i dunno. i'll do some research and get back to you guys.

wait to go leon magnolis. i wish i had your patience to do those kind of posts.

Oh believe me, I know what they're doing and these are mostly arguements that I've heard, although some made me think. And as I said before, I don't expect anyone's point of view to change. This is a-- spar, for lack of a better term. Two differant opinions fighting-- neither side is going to win, but both can come out a little wiser and better able to argue the other side.

Well as long as I'm on somewhat of a roll, I might as well post something my friend brought up. This is totally random and apart from the topic really, but how does one prove the scientific method scientifically?

I'm not gonna comment on this because I already got a headache thinking about it, but I just thought I'd throw that out here, lol.

Well, I do not like to post when threads get large such as this one... But I guess I'll throw in my two cents into this conversation. Now remember, I have not read all of the posts, well, because there is just too damn many of them. So I'll just write what comes to my mind on different issues.

After Life

Pika and I had a conversation about this on ICQ, so I'll post what I think here. I belive that a person does not have to be a certain religion, or be in the "right" religion to go into an afterlife. I belive this: (this is a clippet of mine and Pika's conversation)

"I think that a person who accepts all people, will die. And when they die, whatever they belive in (heaven, or blackness, etc.) will happen. I think that a person who does not accept all, will also die. And when they die, whatever they believe in, the oposite will happen.

I mean, BigJustin says that everybody will go to hell. But from a Christian's point of view, I think that everybody who is not open to other religions/people will go to hell, or their equivalent of a bad place. Which is why I think we should all be positive to eachother, then we will not fear what happens after death, but welcome it."

I also think that everybody who follows the example which Martin Luther King set, will be living an amazing afterlife, the way that they want it to be.

Religions (Right, Wrong)

I do not know what I truly belive, but right now, I think that there is no true religion. I believe in Jesus Christ, and He taught us to love all and respect eachother, including those who are "lower class", and prostitutes, criminals, etc. I think that there should be a religion that just promotes peace and unity. I think that if we focus on this, then God will look down on us and be happy with what He sees... That being because I believe in God. And for Atheists, well, they can just know that what they are doing is helping them, and they will be great people if they join this "help everybody" religion.

Also, as I already said, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in His Father, God. But do you know what? Who the hell I am I to say that Jesus is my Saviour? I mean, there are so many different religions, so many different people who believe in God, so many people who do not believe in God, so how do I know that He is God? And hell, how do I know that there is a God? I think about this alot, and I still am confused, very, very much confused at that.

Creation

Wow... Just go outside and look around. Look at the stars. Look at the trees, the grass, the houses, the people. It is amazing how many things there are on this land. It is amazing how many events have taken place, and how many adoptations animals and mamals have done. So how the f*ck did this all start? I have no friggen clue. Was is created by God? Was it created in a big BANG? Here are some of my thoughts.

God Theory : God created everything. God created the Universe, God created the planets, God created animals and man. This all makes sence, except for the nagging fact of WHO THE F*CK CREATED GOD? I mean, did God have a father? I doubt it. And even if He did, then who created Him? I mean, I think that it is amazing that I am alive right now, and that I am breathing and that I can function. This is crazy, I mean, how could this have happened? I have no clue.

BANG theory : Another one that ends up in a question of "Who created the Universe so this could all happen". I am really confused about this theory too because I am just too damn skeptical of things being created without anybody to create them. But then, how am I alive?

So, as one can see, my views on creation are messed up and I am just flat out confused about it. I just cannot see how something can just appear out of thin air. It is so damn confusing. And the only way that we can probably find out is if we die. That sucks.

Conclusion

Love all. Strive to be equal to all. Respect all nations, religions, and nature. Follow the plans that Marting Luther King jr. did. And most of all, do not think that just because somebody is not up to your standards, or do not follow the same views as you, do not think less of them. Because everybody is unique, and precious.

god wasn't created by anybody. what i'm about to tell you is mind boggling but.........

god always was. no beginning no end.

I know the God has no beginning and no end.

But how isn't there a beginning??? It is so damn confusing.

here is my prob with the scientific method thing.

the scientific method is limited to a process defined by stuff that measurable and repeatable. it can't speak on issues of ultimate origin, meaning, or morality. for this stuff science is dependent on the values and personal beliefs of those who use it. science can be used for both good and bad. it can be used to make vaccines or poisons, nuclear power plants or nuclear weapons. it can be used to clean up the environment or to pollute it. it can be used to argue for God or against Him. science by itself offers no moral guidance or values to govern our lives. all science can do is show us how natural law works, but it tells us nothing about its origins.

Actually science has a lot to do with the origins of things.

give some examples.

Anthropology
Paleontology
Archeology
Astronomy

To name a few. And to give specific examples would result in pages and pages of stuff no one here would bother reading.