Re: Religion
 

I didn't read many of the other posts, just wanted to comment on this:

There are too many cases in which different beliefs contradict each-other. I mean, Bhudisim and Christianity can't both be right.

I believe that we have no right to judge other religions because they could possibly be other patsh that god set up for people who don't have access to other religions. But... when two things but heads one or the other must be false.

I belive in one heaven, one hell, and one God... and the ten commandments. If a religion directly conflicts with this (like most tend to do) I would say they are following the wrong path, period. Now, if they believe in somthing similar to the ten commandments a God, and believe in heaven and hell, then it's not my place to judge... I'm not God.

To Strangler:

I have read that before, and there is no excuse for it. Osama is muslim and he does directly follow the Koran. Most movie stars and athletes who are islam were trying to say that that isn't what the Qur'an speaks of, and that Osama follows a peverted form of thier religion. Looking at the quotes you just posted it's not hard to believe that he is directly following what the Qur'an says.

Basically what I get from it is... if they follow another religion, and they don't convert, kill them. Directly conflicts with the beliefs of most religions... including my beliefs.

Re: Re: Religion
 

That is why I did not say Bhudism. Bhudists do not believe in a supreme being, the just focus on themself, karma, and meditation.

But how do we choose which one is the right one, and which is false? This is why I said that the four religions are just different paths. There is no point in fighting amongst one another when we can all just respect our differences instead of fighting.

Are you Jewish? Or by God do you mean the Holy Trinity, and you do believe Jesus' teachings, right? I am pretty sure you are a Christian, I just want to confirm it because the 4 things you listed can be found in the Jewish Holy Book (sorry, forget what it is called, lol).

This verse is dealing with not killing anyone who is innocent. Why would God want the innocent to be killed for no reason? It defies reason.

The verse is referring to when war becomes inevitable [Read up any commentary on the Qur’an, particularly for us people who don’t understand Arabic, and also just read the verses before, and check what the chapter is dealing with].

So the verse is saying War must be persecuted with complete vigour if WAR is inevitable i.e all democratic options have been exhausted to the brim. In one particular commentary of this verse it is stated ‘According to the English phrase, you cannot fight with kid gloves. The fighting may take form of killing, capture, or siege, or ambush and other stratagems, but even if there is room for repentance and amendment of the part of the guilty party, and if that takes place, our duty Is forgiveness and the establishment of peace.’

So basically this verse is dealing with WAR.

You've missed out the verse before it:

And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allâh, and for those weak, ill_treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."

This verse is referring to a person who by false pretences comes into the inner counsels of e.g a government, or Islamic state [Khalifah], merely to betray them, he may be rightly treateas as a traitor, and be punished for his treason, if he escapes, he can be treated as an enemy. He is worse than an enemy,he has claimed to be one of you in order to spy on you, and been all the time helping the enemy.

] This is referring to a fighter who has left the life of this world, just to please his lord, and fight to defend people, or defend his land, fighting in the cause of Allah. If he is killed, he is termed as a shaeed [A martyr]. So I dont know what you're trying to prove by all these verses? Because there is no mention of violence against infidels.

Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).

If someone stops disbelieving, and starts believing in the correct Lord, with a sincere repentance, and a new change, then he will be forgiven for all his past. And if they continue to disbelieve in Allah, then there have been many nations in the past which have been destroyed......

Thats all very well and good, but one cannot deny that it is very easy to rationalize violence against non-muslims by using those quotes, and you haven't exactly come out saying that those quotes don't directly inflame violence against "non-believers". There's a thing called tolerance, look into it.

These verses are very easily used to justify any kind of terrorism, and when it is said that all words in the Qur'an are perfected, its hard to argue against that. Literal translation justifies violence. It does not that God/Allah will kill those that are unbelievers, it says that YOU should kill unbelievers. This is not an arguable point.

Many of the calls to violence may seem good intentioned to you, but its all relative. Fanatic Muslim "good intentions" may not coincide with common morality.

Concerning the verse you quoted about 'beating.'

The earliest commentators understood that the hitting was to be light enough, not to leave a mark and should be done with nothing bigger than a miswak (tooth stick). I'm sure you dont know what a miswak is, but it's kind of like a toothbrush, infact it's very soft, it's like a twig, but even thinner than a twig, and very soft, and the 'beating' is not really a 'beating.' It is just like a symbolic gesture. This was also reported in the Sunnah [The way of our prophet peace be upon him]

We also know from the hadiths and sirah (biography) of the prophet (pbuh) that he has always urged men not to abuse or hit their wives. In fact, he is known to have never hit his wives, servants, an animal, or “a thing”.

Allah orders us to live in peace and harmony with our spouses. In Surah 30, verse 21 He says:

*{And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your [hearts]: verily in that are signs for those who reflect.}*

Also, He says in Surah 2, verse 187:
They are your garments and ye are their garments

Agreed... we shouldn't fight, but that doesn't mean we should respect out differences. I mean, when a person believes that they will go to heaven by running an airplane into a building and killing just because most of the people disagree with thier beliefs, I think that there is a huge problem.

See, I can't get mad at a religion who knows the difference between right and wrong by the bible's standards... A sin is a sin...

I'm Christain... and yes, by god I mean the father, the son, and the holy spirit. I think if them as one... and when I refer to "god" I mean the trinity.

Almansurah, you are doing lot of interpreting of text that is not meant to be interpreted according to your and Shadow Fox's previous posts. I'm sure you don't view this as interpretation, but then again others that view the text quoted as permission to beat their wives savagely probably view their interpretation as the absolute word of Allah. This is shown by the Taliban's frequent beating and submission of women for failing to cover themselves completely and the occurances of western women having rocks and sticks thrown at them. Early commentators aside, while the exact extent of beating remains vague, the endorsement of wife beating is still in the Qur'an and quite clear.

The whole hard line of the Qur'an being absolute truth, void of wasted words and only filled with the perfected speech of Allah lends itself to these abuses. Everyone's interpretation is taken as absolute truth, and there can be NO variation or other interpretation.

At the end of your post you list a quote for the Qur'an where Allah says all should live together in peace, but you can't deny that the posts I quoted exist in the Qur'an and call for violence against disbelievers and the submission of women. Do you still think the Qur'an is devoid of contradictions?

Justin, so what do you think will happen to Muslims, Jews and Hindus when they die?

Exactly what the Bible says will happen to them. If anything different happens, it's god's decision. I'm not god, so I can't speculate or judge anybody, I can only go by the words he has given me... period.

No I am not interpreting the text. I am just reading the Qur'an, in what context it was revealed. The Qur'an was revelead in 23 years, and different verses were related on different events, for example some of the verses you quoted about 'Killing' is related to one of the battles called Hunain.

And concerning Taliban's frequent beating of women [I dont want to really talk about politics, and enter this field, since we'll just go round in circles], but just because you've seen a few pictures on TV of that happening, doesn't mean that the whole Taliban were like that. What about their good points, 100% Peace to the areas which were in internal strife, complete wipeout of drugs....but anyway, as I said I dont want to enter this discussion, since it's about religion. But remember, there are always 2 sides to a story.

The Qur'an is devoid of any contradictions, if you think what you posted are contradictions, then i've just gotta say, that those verses dealing with 'killing' are related to war, and peace is related to when there is no war, or a need of war. Just read it up in the context the chapter is in, and you will see.

Ok, I see your points, but I can't agree with them. I still see the contradictions that you don't. Seaparating religious ideaology into separate "peace" and "war" philophies being one of them.

As for the Taliban's "good" points, I think you're REALLY stretching it there, even to the point of absurdity. As for whiping out drugs, wasn't Afghanistan's main agricultural product Poppy Plants which are used to make Opium? And what good is curing internal strife if it means the subjugation of your own people? The ends don't necessarily justify the means.

The more I look the more contradiction I see, even if you don't.

And I wasn't referring to a few pictures I saw on TV, but to a full length documentary made by an investigative journalist who went undercover for a year as an Afghany woman under a Burka (sp?). I'll try and see if I can find a link to it as it was quite disturbing.

But overall you have your view and I have mine, and never the twain shall meet it appears. I think we've both given each other a good amount to think about, though. Good discussion.:)

Yes, good discussion. Once you've brought the point out into the open, and people reject it, even though you've tried, then that decision is up to them. As it says in the Qur'an 'La Kum Di Na Kum Wa Liya Deen', To you your religion, To me mine.

May God guide us all.

No wonder people don't like talking about religion.



But the Bible does say few are the ones finding the way of life...

Me? I worship the PHANTOM... I33T!~!!!!!~!~!!@!11!!@!1

Man, I wish I saw this thread earlier... Anyways here's what I think about religion.

The human race is too stupid and unevolved to realize that religion is nothing more than fairy tales invented centuries ago. It's the source of most problems and alots of wars.

Here's one of my favorite quote. I think it's from a guy called George Carlin