Re: Religions
 

Let me further expand again.

We need to make a philosophical distinction right away: Are there intrinsic and natural "morals." Assuming, hypothetically, there in no religion, no God, no divinity: are there natural moral rules?

I would argue yes. Life is intrinsic to living things. Therefore, killing a living thing compromises the natural right to life.

Let's assume that killing is morally objectionable and should be taken seriously. Let's also ignore killing for food and war. Remember, this is hypothetical.

I strongly oppose the 10 Commandments because they do not stand up to the empirical weight that humans do not have free will. Let me say outright, most people have a set of instilled rational beliefs, and "know" better than to act against them. People who fit into "normal" social constructs don't kill other people. Now, there are mounds and mounds of empirical evidence that suggest that "normal" people have a set of genetic predispositions and behavior predispositions. Odds are most people here don't have Gacy's brain damage. Odds are most people here weren't abused in such a way that has caused them to feel the need, or actually act on the urge to kill another human being.

Now, some of us have had sex, stolen, done drugs, or done other things that question the 10 Commandments. But I feel like this is more of a reflection on the aging church policies. None of us here have killed people (ignoring food and war), and I would attribute that to normal social-psycho upbringings.

Time after time, empirical after empirical after empirical study has shown that people do not control their choices outside of their "normal" sense of perception. Heroin addicts cannot control their addiction without tons of support, medication, and help. Food acts cannot control eating. People with anxiety or schizophrenia cannot put a lens of "normal" perception over their own skewed view. And even using the phrase "skewed view" makes me judgmental. Psychology and medicine has a holistic and humanistic philosophy, and has had that view for a long time. Psychology isn't about treating someone, it is about making their life comfortable. If you have anxiety, but live a comfortable life: then you are not abnormal. We would define "abnormal" as disruptive to daily functioning and healthy living. And even that is a tough philosophical point in medicine.

The brain in a pure sense is a clean slate. We add genetics into the equation and the brain now has certain characteristics that will influence development. You add behavior and those behaviors influence the outcome of the individual. My own behaviors, perceptions, and experiences are the result of my genetics, and the experiences I have had in my life. If you changed just a few external stimuli or experiences, I may never have been the video game loving person I am today. If you change a few experiences and stimuli, John Wayne Gacy may not have raped and killed 33 teenagers.

The point is, I reject the traditional notion of free will for the sound empirical reality which is that we are largely not in control of our behaviors. I would argue by extension: my decision to fit into society's "normal moral construct" and not kill people is the result of a fairly normal upbringing. There are "standards" and "practices" to develop normal humans. There is a sensitive window to learn language, for example. We send children to school. We tell parents not to rape or abuse their kids. We try to control for behavior; so much so we would punish a parent molesting their child, because it goes against the "normal construct" we have established in society. Some parents who do a perfect job raising their child still have issues: maybe it is genetics, maybe it is external stimuli or experiences from another source. The point is, it is something.

I don't make the choice to not kill people because I have some sort of moral compass. I make the choice not to kill people because I have a complex view and understanding, as imparted on me from other people, my upbringing, my genetic backdrop, and everything else that I have experienced up until this point.

I don't believe you could honestly hold someone to 10 Commandments unless you were a judgmental, non-loving, non-empathetic God. Understanding what we know about development and the brain today, we can see that many people make the choices they make due to their environmental circumstances. And when I say "environmental circumstances," I refer to the Epigenetic realization that your brain and YOU are made up of experiences and neural paths.

To place judgement on someone who was abused, or is genetically susceptible to eating too much sugar or using heroin, is just shallow and uneducated.

On a slightly related note, I feel like there is either a lack of empathy in posts in this thread...or a deflection of empathy. Forwarding would-be-empathy to religion doesn't help make the world a better place.

Re: Religions
 

Basically, a human brain is a box of legos.

Through thousands of years of evolution and social interaction, humans have a set of instructions that are ideal.

Ideally, you build a lego brain so that it doesn't kill people, molest children, or whatever.

Sometimes, genetics throws you a curve ball and you don't have enough legos to make a brain that perceives the same world we do where killing is wrong.

Sometimes, the person building the lego brain does a very poor job and doesn't follow the instructions.

Both situations often result in a lego brain with a "distorted perception" compared to the "normal perception" we all follow. When that lego brain rapes and kills 33 boys, causes the Holocaust, or whatever:

Does that brain go to Hell?

If you answer yes, there might be a good chance your God lacks empathy and understanding.


Edit: A final disclaimer to avoid confusion.

I don't empathize with the monster that John Wayne Gacy became. The man who raped and killed kids? I can't empathize with that monster. I'm empathetic to Gacy, the human, who was abused as a child and had the unfortunate set of genetic traits that crippled his brain. I'm empathetic and feel VERY SORRY about the entire situation. I literally feel emotionally sick when I think about his victims. It's a tragedy that his father, the alcoholic and abuser, was also likely abused. It's a horrible situation all around, with no winners. My view, which I find is shared and common with some of the most decent people I have ever met, may or may not align with the Biblical view. Which is why I raise this issue.

Re: Religions
 

We aren't talking about the same things. I think you think I'm saying no one should ever be sad because there is always someone more sad, and no one should be happy because there is always someone more happy.

I'm not saying that. I'm not talking about tiers of happiness.

I'm saying that there is hunger in the world, and that people die from it. I don't think you're fully comprehending how painful that would be - to starve to death. And it happens. Maybe these people feel blessed for some things, but I doubt the children who die this way do. I know when I was a child I never really stopped to think "wow, I'm really blessed."

I'm just saying that these atrocious things happen, and there is no god in any of it - at least not a kind god. Then you have these religious people in first world countries who talk about how god has entered their lives and made their lives better.

Now THAT is a matter of perspective. Their lives are good because they lived in a developed nation and had good opportunities, not because of an act of god. Why do they give credit to him, when it's easy to see that it's just the natural entropy of the universe, that some people are very lucky and some are very unlucky?


@KG: yeah, I pretty much agree with all of that. I don't think it was directed at me, probably more at Typhoid, but yeah.

Re: Religions
 

Let's talk about the lego box. There is a very sensitive window in early childhood development where children can learn social behaviors and language. If you miss that window, the kid is absolutely fucked. The reason is that the neural networks (remember...the brain develops til 25, but the bulk of the development happens EARLIER rather than LATER) slow their development.



The genetics that are in place to allow humans to learn language and social interactions so easily is the result of evolution. It's crazy fucking stuff, but it is also totally awesome.

These same principles apply to other areas of development. If you abuse a young child? They grow up to have problems. If you smoke during pregnancy? You cause genetic damage which results in development issues.

To assert that a Feral Child has any free will or "Original Sin" or anything like that...well...I don't know. Can someone enlighten me?

Re: Religions
 

I understand what you're saying, but I for one would rather be born and die from starvation then to not have lived at all. Life is a gift. Your original question was asking how it's rationalized, and I'm telling you how it is rationalized.

For example... I hate to use myself as an example, but my little brother died form cancer at the age of 2. Do I think it's unfair/sad that he never got the chance to live a normal life? Of course I do. If I could go back in time and stop him from existing so he wouldn't have to deal with the cancer? NO.

Even though he had a short life he blessed a lot of people and brought our family back together. He helped me put my own life into perspective at an early age, and appriciate the time that I do have here because it's not promised. Even if you're born in te NA or Africa, you aren't promised a longer life or a less painful death at all. Nor are you promised a happier life.

That's why there are wealthy people out there killing themselves, and poor people loving life.

So yes, when I see a poor person that I can help, I help them. When I see people dying from starvation, it makes me upset. But at the same time, it makes me remember how blessed I am to even be here and have the chance to experience life. I could have died just as quick or quicker then anyone who ever lived.

The less fortunate should create humility for you. People aren't at church going "Thank God that I have a better life then a few billion people", It's more like "Thank you for letting me be here and giving my this gift of life, because I didn't have to be here and didn't have to have this gift."

Then we can get into prayer, which is basically wishing well for other people that you can't help, and thanking god for what you have already recieved. You can pray for yourself to succeed at something, or to make it through something, but my personal preference is to wish the best for others. Usually if I'm praying for myself, I'm praying to have a good outlook regardless of how things turn out, and I leave things in God's hands.

See now I'm just preaching to GT. lol

I gotta go get my haircut.

KG Typhoid, I'm not ignoring you guys, just too much to read. I'ma have more time to look tonight.

Re: Religions
 

Why?

Re: Religions
 

I just wanted to express how sad I am that I don't have time to read this whole thread and respond. :(

But I will on Sunday. :)

Re: Religions
 

Still missing the point - I'm not arguing that these people should have never been born (although, yeah, in most cases I think it would have been best if they hadn't). I'm saying that they ARE HERE, right now, and no god has fixed their plight, but evidently he helps people in first world nations feel content.

Re: Religions
 

There are plenty of people in the 3rd world who are content, and plenty of people in the first world who aren't. And everyone dies, it doesn't matter if you're in the first world or third world. Life is what you make it. Just because someone else's life sounds bad to you from your point of view, doesn't mean that the person going through it has a dark/bad outlook on life.

I'm sure some snobby millionaire somewhere looks at your life and is asking themselves "how can he live like that? I would rather be dead then be that poor". And at that same moment, there's probably another snobby millionaire who feels like they have nothing to live for and there's no way out of the mess they made except to kill themself.

I'm not sure how I can explain it better. Life is what you make it. People who have less should teach you humility and make you more thankful for what you have. People who have more, well... don't worry about them, by thankful for what you have. Where you stand on the totem pole of weath doesn't matter, because your mind and your outlook on things is what's really in control.

Yes god gave them less then he gave you, and gave you less then he gave someone else.. from a wealth/health standpoint. You may be thanking god for putting a roof over your head and giving you transportation, while a dying man may be thanking him for letting him wake up another morning and seeing his wife's face again.

Bad things in general exist to make you appreciate the good things.

Re: Religions
 

Because I think the chance to live life is a blessing in itself.

Re: Religions
 

Even if youre only going to live for a few years?

Not even enough time to understand the concept of life.

Re: Religions
 

I already addressed that in the same post you originally quoted.

Since you want to go there though, what is the concept of life? You do realize how people understand life is subjective right? Just because you are more wealthy and live a longer life then someone else doesn't mean that they're life was a waste. Just like your life isn't a waste because there are people more wealthy then you and can't understand the concept of debt, public school, or wiping their own butt (or whatever a spoiled person can't live without).

Your concept of happiness shifts based on how much knowlege you have and based on your personal experiences and the situation you were born into. Just because you die a few years after you're born doesn't mean you didn't experience happiness, sadness, love etc etc. And no matter how long you live, you're going to die. Hate to break it to you, but it's going to happen.

Yeah if you die young young you don't experience as much joy relitive to someone who lives longer, but you also don't experience as much pain.

Re: Religions
 

But there are people who are born who do not experience happiness, who are born suffering only to die early. If I had the choice I would opt out of that life, it would be miserable. And im well aware that death is inevitable, but if you dont even get to "live", then whats the point of being born? Im sure you realize that if you were the one born into that position your views and beliefs would be changed drastically, but that can be said about anything really.

Back to that "death is inevitable" topic, I remember seeing somewhere that cell replicating nanites could be created, and that they would replace/repair any dyeing cells or something, so theoretically you could avoid death? At least through natural causes. Maybe at that point everything will go all Logans Run on us.

Re: Religions
 

-EDIT-

Rewording... Happiness is a relative term. Some days are better then others, therefore they could be happy about the better days. If all of their days are sad (by your opinion), then for them 'sad' is 'normal' and it no longer has any power over them. Therefore they can appriciate different things that we take for granted.

For all we know, we lead a sad, pointless, and painful life to somone else.

Re: Religions
 

I guess so. Maybe they found a bug to eat one day, making them slightly happier, then died the next day.