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Re: The Stimulus Package

On a similar unrelated note, I liked one of the answers when Leno did his "Presidential Jeopardy" last night. One of the answers was Stimulus Bill. "Bush" responded with "What is Bill's nickname in the White House". I busted out laughing at it and then wondered why I never thought of that.

Re: The Stimulus Package

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...public_review/

Think can review the final version of the bill here.

Re: The Stimulus Package

TheGame, here's the data that you asked for in real (2000) dollars:

You can view the full budget here (very large document): http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget...7/pdf/hist.pdf

Again, the problem is not that tax revenue is too low, or that tax rates are too high, the problem is spending massive amounts of money above and beyond a nearly constant tax revenue stream.

Re: The Stimulus Package

I can't imagine what a revised amount would look now based on the fact that data is from '07 right before all hell broke loose.

Re: The Stimulus Package

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-02-13-voa53.cfm

The funny thing is they would never give any specific examples of why they voted against it.

Re: The Stimulus Package

The even funnier thing is that it is nearly inconceivable that any representative had time to read the finalized bill for a re-vote (not for lack of trying, simply because the bill was slammed through so fast):

Re: The Stimulus Package

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGame (Post 245246)

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-02-13-voa53.cfm

The funny thing is they would never give any specific examples of why they voted against it.

Game, those that were against this bill have been VERY specific about their reasons and have expressed this in multiple televised press conferences. I've even posted video clips of some of the specific reasons why they're against it. If anyone has been vague, it's those that have been FOR the bill, talking more about partisanship and obstructionism than the bill's merits.

In the end it's passed and we'll see what happens. Personally, I think that the economy will recover, because it always does, but it will in spite of the "stimulus bill". I just hope the delay isn't too crippling.

Re: The Stimulus Package

Now barring this stimulus package is a complete and utter blow-up.
I think Obama won the war on words as well. He got the stimulus passed in about the time he claimed he would. He offered to reach out to Republicans for this bill, but they tried to fight it.
And well, he still has a pretty high approval rating of his performance.

Curious to see what the following weeks hold now. And how much Republican opposition will grow or die.

Re: The Stimulus Package

It's interesting how our discussion of the stimulus package has turned away from facts and quantitative economic measures, to more of "feelings" arguments. I think this only mirrors the larger discussion in our country around economic issues, though. Complex economic discussions get boiled down to class-warfare and emotional arguments in the twenty-four hour news cycle that we live under.

Re: The Stimulus Package

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond (Post 245286)

Part of this is the idea I maintain and shared earlier, that politicians just think we're too stupid to understand the economics and/or they want to "slip" something past us. I keep being reminded of Rahm Emanuel's statement that a good crisis should never go to waste.

In the end, the Republicans have the best argument based on real numbers but they are afraid to voice it (or apply those pronciples looking at the past 8 or so years), and democrats have the best argument based on "social justice" simply because pandering to class envy and anger is effective. Just look at Jason1's political views for a perfect illustration. Keep someone angry and spiteful against a common enemy and they'll stop thinking.

What has really angered me during all of this is how damaging it has been to our democratic process. We're passing massive bills that haven't been read or understood out of FEAR and ANGER, not reason. The only real argument we hear repeatedly from those that support this bill is that of immediacy; "something has to be done now!". But no one is talking about what that something is or how it will affect our nation beyond broad political arguments.

The last time that happened we ended up with The Great Depression and a lost decade of failed economic policies.

Re: The Stimulus Package

I do wonder how the GOP will continue going forward with this, I mean the House none of them voted for the stimulus and I believe only 3 in the Senate, but when aspects supports their followers... will they continue saying it was a bad move or try and save face.

Quote:

GOP lawmakers tout projects in the stimulus bill they opposed

By David Lightman | McClatchy Newspapers
WASHINGTON —

Rep. John Mica was gushing after the House of Representatives voted Friday to pass the big stimulus plan.

"I applaud President Obama's recognition that high-speed rail should be part of America's future," the Florida Republican beamed in a press release.

Yet Mica had just joined every other GOP House member in voting against the $787.2 billion economic recovery plan.

Republicans echoed their party line over and over during the debate: "This bill is loaded with wasteful deficit spending on the majority's favorite government programs," as Minority Whip Eric Cantor, R-Va., put it.

But Mica wasn't alone in touting what he saw as the bill's virtues. Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, also had nice things to say in a press release.

Young boasted that he "won a victory for the Alaska Native contracting program and other Alaska small business owners last night in H.R. 1, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act."

One provision would have made it harder for minority businesses to win contracts, and Young explained that he "worked with members on the other side of the aisle to make the case for these programs, and was able to get the provision pulled from the bill."

Yet later in the day Young — who recently told McClatchy that he would've included earmarks, or local projects, in the bill if it had been permitted — issued another statement blasting the overall measure.

"This bill was not a stimulus bill. It was a vehicle for pet projects, and that's wrong," he protested.

That was more in line with the Republican message. Young wouldn't return a request for comment on the apparent contradiction of his press releases.

Mike Steel, a spokesman for House GOP Leader John Boehner of Ohio, at first ducked when asked about Mica and Young issuing press releases praising the bill they'd opposed.

"I don't work for Mica or Young," Steel said initially.

But then he explained that what Mica and Young did in touting aspects of the bill was in fact consistent with the Republican message.

"Being supportive of one portion of a trillion dollar bill, but voting against the entire trillion dollar bill, is perfectly reasonable," Steel said.

Mica is the top Republican on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, and a longtime backer of high-speed rail. GOP committee spokesman Justin Harclerode explained that Mica saw the bill's $8 billion for rail as a "silver lining," and "he's encouraged others are supporting high speed rail too."

But nowhere in the Young or Mica statements was any mention that they opposed the bill.

Harclerode wasn't sure why Mica didn't mention his opposition. "It's not really secret," he said. "I guess it just wasn't the focus."

Re: The Stimulus Package

To use a cliche: The proof is in the pudding.

If the bill succeeds, the Republicans were against a successful economic policy and they'll be crushed come 2010 elections. If the economy continues to stumble and fail for the next two years, the Republicans look like prophets that no one listened to and when the mid-term elections come, and they will gain seats quite easily.

This bill and the coming banking and housing bills are a huge gamble for both sides, and our political landscape will be shaped by the outcome for YEARS.

In any case, I hope that I am proven wrong by these actions by our legislature. Now that it whas bee passed I truly hope the bill succeeds, because in the end thats what everyone wants, we just disagree in what will succeed. My fear is that it will fail and fail spectacularly.

Re: The Stimulus Package

Personally, I don't think anything will change.

You can pour money into whatever you want, but as long as people are scared enough about another "depression", they will hoarde their money, and not spend it as frivilously (in most cases).

Once things tend to get really bad, they don't get better until they hit what appears to be rock bottom - and I just don't think there is any stopping that. Slowing it down, sure.

Re: The Stimulus Package

Wether or not Obama turns out to do a good job as president or not, it's nice to have a president who can actually put a complete sentence together.

Re: The Stimulus Package

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid (Post 245334)

That's the bottomline really.
As long as people continue to believe in a recession and hard times, they just won't spend money as much.

Or if they get extra cash will save it or use it to pay down debt more rapidly than spending on frivolous things.