Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5098517.shtml

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=112818960

We can speculate about if people are against how the healthcare change is being handled now because of the public option, or because it won't include the public option all day. But the fact of the matter is 'the people' and 'the doctors' want a public option for health insurance. Poll after poll after poll shows this.

If the public option doesn't pass, its not because the people didn't want it, its because the influences in washington didn't want it.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Everyone's got the hands in the pot up on Capitol Hill and it's really disappointing to see people more concerned about profits over the people.

It really is a sad state of affairs. I have medical conditions that REQUIRE health insurance, so now I HAVE to find a job that will have health insurance and benefits that will be able to cover the costs, or at least cover them well enough.

Personally I don't see this happening, but all I know is that as soon as I'm 23 I'm gonna be in big trouble. I was SERIOUSLY hoping this would happen.

So here's to my health insurance co.,Cigna. You greedy bastards.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Game, I don't feel like dancing this same tired dance again (we can both read it in previous posts in this thread). I'll just end my side of the argument (again) by restating the obvious:

Are people in favor of a government run option? Yes. You may as well ask people if they are in favor of free sandwiches. Who doesn't want a free sandwich?

Have people been in favor of any government run option that has been presented to them by their government? No, because when people look at the reality of government run healthcare they don't like what they see. Thats why every poll since JULY that has asked opinions on the CURRENT government run healthcare bills has shown that a majority of people don't favor that specific legislation. If anyone would like to page back a few they'll see the polls and reports that reflect this FACT, but honestly if you didn't bother to read it and process it the first time I doubt you will the second.

People don't want the free sandwich anymore when they find out it's filled with razor blades. The idea of the free sandwich is wonderful, but once they take a bite they want to spit it out.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Oh trust me Prof, I understand your side. That's why I threw in "We can speculate about if people are against how the healthcare change is being handled now because of the public option, or because it won't include the public option all day."

I'm just pointing out the fact that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option. Therefore, imo, it makes more sense that Obama's losing support because he's not strongly backing it anymore.

-EDIT-

I may as well ask, because I'm curious. What part of the concept of the public option are people fighting against? (And I mean someone who would say they want a public option in a poll, but who is against the public option concept as-is now.) And what evidence do you have to support this?

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Except if you look at the Rasmussen numbers I posted earlier and read the whole article where they basically reiterate my points.

Once again, look at the Rasmussen report I posted. It's based on months of poll numbers.

As for what people are fighting against: They have made themselves quite clear and we've posted the arguments against the government run option (HR 3200) many times.

EDIT: I'll add a new one. People want their representatives to actually read the bill before voting on it, and the people themselves would like a chance to read it and understand it before a vote takes place..

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

I've looked at those links before, and I don't see a poll where its specifically asked if people are in favor of having a public option or not. Most of their questions are based on the performance of the government now, and the numbers keep falling more and more as the government's support for the public option drops.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...rats_collapses

Also I notice they tend to push the terms "single payer" and "governemnt run healthcare" moreso then "public option for insurance". I may be overlooking it, though.. I've just spent 20 minutes searchign for a poll in which they asked people specifically if they want a public option for healthcare insurance or not.

I could agree to that, also we shouldn't add one penny to the deficit.. because no good president would do that, right?

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Game, the semantic games played in the first part of your post aren't appreciated.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...th_care_reform

Well by your standard "good" Pres. Obama is 20 times worse than Bush and is by far the worst President ever!



But thats off topic, isn't it :D

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Nor are the semantic games played on those polls. There's no direct mention of people's support for the public option for healthcare insurance. While I'd agree that support for the plans in washington have lowered, I just disagree with the reasons.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

The reality is that the Democrats have a 60 seat majority in the Senate. 60 seats! They should be able to ram through any kind of legislation they please through multiple different tactics, but they couldn't pass the public option.

Either the party is incompetent, or it is simply not its will to pass the public option. I would side with the latter.

The unfortunate thing is meaningful reform may not be passed.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

It boils down to them not wanting to fight against companies who pay them. That's why there's a civil war in the democratic party right now... Its good politics that the american people want vs good campaign donations. And as long as the republican party keeps looking and acting like morons in this situation, they're not scared of losing votes to them.. However, losing campaign contributions by going against private insurers is a bigger threat.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

The Rasmussen article you posted even disagrees with your assessment.

The fact is that bill included a "public option" as it's central building block at the time, amongst other unpalatable items, and everyone knew it.

The fact remains that while people want A public option, once they see the details of what it means to them and healthcare in general, support PLUMMETS.

These numbers continue to support the same rational conlcusion that Rasmussen, the professionals in this venue, came to in September.

If the Rasmussen numbers going back to July don't reflect people's dislike of the "public option", what do they reflect dislike of? Remember, the public option wasn't off the table until early September, I believe (or late August).

And you keep going back to special interests, but to be honest there has never been as much special interest SUPPORT for a government run healthcare option. Even the Pharma companies are now supporting it.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7016090716

As Bond said, the bottom line is they can't get it done. If there was overwhelming support for these plans, they would get done regardless because politicians need to get elected and to do that they need votes. It's simple. People make it complicated.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Dislike of reaching out to republicans on something they'd never approve of. The public option has been off the table as long as Obama has felt it nessicary for republicans to agree with healthcare reform.

So once again, those polls don't directly ask people if they want a public option for healthcare or not. They're asking people what they think of how the white house is handling things now. Two completly different questions.

The problem is that the republicans have went of the deep end so bad, that democrats don't think its nessicary to make a public option to hold onto votes. Just like they don't think its nessicary to make gay marriage legal to hold onto votes. Because the people they're screwing will vote for them anyway.

You can either vote for the person who supports your ideas but doesn't really push for them.. or the person who fights against your ideas.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Once again, Rasmussen disagrees with your assessment of their polls.


Ok, so now it IS about winning votes, and therefore a reflection of the will of the people? Then we have nothing to disagree on. I thought it was about special interest interference. By the way, it's spelled "necessary".

Ok, but I fail to see how this is relevant to the discussion at hand. Either way, you've basically conceded the point and agree that the main force in this issue IS the will of the people, unless I've completely misread your post.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Completly missed the point and misread the post.

Here are the people's choices. a) Vote for the group that says they want a public option, but who doesn't really push for one collectively. or b) Vote for the group that's pushing to kill the public option and any type of healthcare reform that our current president suggests.

Lets say my polls are more valid, and the majority of people are in favor ofthe public option... who would you expect them to vote for, option A or option B?

Lets say you are right, and the majority of people are against having a public option... who would you expect them to vote for, option A or option B?

And also, can you understand why a person for the public option would see both option A & B in a negative light?

In this case, democrats don't have to appeal to the people, because the only other option the people are given, appeal to them even less. Which is why, dispite the fact that the majority of people want a public option... democrats will not pass it so that they can hold on to their bribes, because voters won't switch sides no matter what the dems do at this point.

Oh, did I say bribes? I meant their campaign donations. Sorry.

So, as I've said in many threads before... we'll see what happens in 2010 and 2012.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

...

What?

So suddenly incorporating your false assumption (the Dems are against the bill because of special interests not public opinion of the REAL legislation) into a question makes it legitimate? The very nature of the question in "option A" is false, and in fact its that nature that we've been debating! Sorry, this additional semantic game didn't work, try again. Lets try to focus this time and not attempt to change the subject.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Uh, once again, no.

They're not refering directly to support of having a public option for health insurance. You can quote the same thing over and over as many times as you'd like, but its not going to change what it says.

And.. Option A is true. There are democrats against the public option, and Obama himself supported a plan that didn't have the public option from Max Baucus.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Really?

How is this not specific enough for you? They say EXACTLY what the poll refers to, and that is THE BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION AS IT'S CENTERPIECE. There is NO AMBIGUITY IN THIS STATEMENT.

The reason I continue to re-post the obvious is that you refuse to acknowledge the obvious and instead spread nonsense. Also, you have yet to form a decent reponse to these reports, instead you create this hypothetical self-question and answering session built to give answers you'd like to hear. I will continue to re-post reason until you A) stop spreading falsehoods or B) actually accept reality.

My bet is on the former, not the latter.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

This poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. This is simply a fact, I can repeat it 50 more times if you wish.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Ok, so the poll didn't refer specifically to a A public option, but instead specifically to the BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION INCLUDED AS THE CENTERPIECE.

And you think that makes the poll invalid?

So you're literally arguing that the myth is more important than the reality. This is an amazing conversation that I don't want to stop. The farther we get into this the more insane the argument becomes.

As for your continued claim that the question is about "how washington is handling it" please supply proof of the question. So far all I've found is evidence from Rasmussen that directly contradicts your assertion. The quote above is quite clear. That said, I haven't been able to find the exact questions asked. You seem sure about the questions, so please provide a link.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

Did this poll ask people if they'd like a public option, or did this poll ask if people support a bill that was already made? My assertion is that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option, however they're not in favor of how washington is currently handling it. If the poll asked directly if the people (or doctors) would prefer to have a public option, as I posted before, the majority of people would say yes.

However, since the question is refering to a bill that had already been compromised on, and that Obama was offering to butcher to gain support from republicans.. the poll is going to yield bad results.

Once again, we'll see if 'the people' are really opposed to the public option when the only poll that matters happens again.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

No, so far this is fact:

Until you prove otherwise. Please provide the link the question that asked about "how washington is handling it". I have yet to see this mysterious question.

... with a public option as it's centerpiece... it's amazing that you're continuing with this, truly.

Yes, and I said they support the IDEA of a public option, they just dislike the REALITY of the public option. The dislike the actual bill... the actual legislation... the reality. Once again, you are arguing the myth against the reality.

1) They don't need support from Republicans because the DEms have a 60 vote majority. They need it from Democrats.

2) This poll refers to the bill as of early August, not the one without the public option. That has been made quite clear. Nothing we are discussing right now has anything to do with the optionless plan.

Try again. This is fun.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

your own quote:

Or to break it down:

I said
Your quote:
*coughs*

The second part of my quote:
The second part of your quote:
So once again:

So you can keep argueing against the facts all you want.

The REALITY of the bill is that the public option was being, and still is being comprimised out of it. Which is why support for it is getting lower and lower.

Exactly, which is why I said:
and finally

once again

You're trying to make the connection that people are voting directly for if they would like to have a public option or not, which isn't the case in this poll. It wasn't the question that was asked, nor is it getting the same results it would have if the question didn't reference the weak sauce that has been being pulled over the last 5+ months.

It'd be like polling NBA fans on if they liked the washington wizards in the early 2000's vs asking if they liked Michael Jordan. And then turning around and saying "But Michael Jordan is the centerpiece of that team!!!!. You're manipulating the poll to fit your own definition.

It did not ask directly if people would like the public option. No matter how much you would like to twist the meaning.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

The BILL does not translate to "how washington is handling it". The bill is the reality of the public option in all it's form, substance and glory.

Your public option is a ghost. A mythical conceit without form or substance. It's a public option that has no downside because it's the perfection of the mind and doesn't care about the real world or unintended consequences. It is impossible to argue against such a beast, so I refuse to do so. I argue REALITY.

I am arguing reality and information based on people's reaction to that reality. You are arguing something that does not exist. You literally have no argument because you have nothing to argue besides an idea of what something SHOULD be but ISN'T.

Hence, people like the idea of "A" public option, the mythological ideal, but not "THE" public option, the reality of what it means once the ideal is attempted to be made reality.

This is REALITY

You're refusal to accept it does not invalidate it. It just makes you seem unhinged.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

The public option is just one part of the bill that can be (was being, and has been) compromised. Therefore that question isn't asking if people want a public option or not. How hard is that to understand?

"Do you support this bill" =\= "Do you want a public option to be passed"

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Ok, so in your definition, what exactly were people against when it comes to the public option legislation that has been proposed? No generalizations... specifics. What exactly did people not like about it?

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Good question... but before I answer I have to give a disclaimer, and restate my point. The people are for having a public option if it lowers their healthcare costs, helps heal the out of control deficit, and increases coverage. Which is exatly what it is meant to, and will do.

People were against that particular bill because dems were coming on TV basically begging for it to be compromised. They continuiously acted like the public option was something that could be removed, and they didn't back it. Plus they claimed they needed republican's support even though they didn't.. and republican's stance was "We won't even have a discussion unless there's no public option".. which translates to "We won't have a discussion unless you do exactly what I want you to do".

Plus. since dems didn't want it to pass really, they would not go on TV and combat the right's claims that this would add to the deficit instead of healing the out of control costs in the system as is now. They even allowed lies like "Death pannels" to run the air waves without calling out a single person's BS.

To Obama's credit, when he did the speech it did boost morale for the healthcare reform bill, however less then a month later he got his first taste of boos when he mentioned Max Baucus' bill, and likely just killed support for what they're trying to pass again. (And in the same speech got a standing ovation when he mentioned the public option)

But with all that said, it doesn't kill the underlying fact that the majority of people want to have a public option. The reason people were and are against what's being pushed through now, is because it is and was too open to compromise.

And since the republicans are pushing for the exact opposite of what the majority of people want. Their arguement in this debate is not going to help them get votes, its just going to further push them into being a minority. While Dems teasing people with the idea won't directly cost them votes (to the opposition anyway, maybe people won't vote at all), its going to kill their approval ratings.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

What public option are you talking about? What bill? What legislation? What proposal? Is the ANYTHING you've seen on paper that would even sniff at meeting your lofty goals that you think are so achievable?

If there is none, please explain how you know better than the experts and professionals who are trying to put this together now. Please explain your perfect public option that adds 40 million people to a system, centraizes it and then manages to increase service and cut costs... Details. I want details of this perfect dream you've imagined for yourself.

As for the rest of your post, besides the "death panels" mention (and forgot to mention REAL issues like huge deficits, the reality of rationing service, legitimate alternatives instead of government centered "options", etc.) you refused to answer my question and did exactly what I asked you NOT to do, which is retreat to broad generalizations.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Go watch Obama's early september speech again. There's a difference between the concept of a public option, and what was actually being pushed.

I gave clear reasons why people voted the way they did. How many people who voted in that poll do you belive sat down and read the bill? How many people who voted gets their news from the internet or main stream media? People base their opinions on legislation through the filter of members of congress talking about it to media.

Re: President Obama Healthcare Speech
 

Obama's speech was a set of general guidelines, not a workable plan by any stretch of the imagination. It's one thing to have goals. Anyone can have goals. It's another thing to have a workable plan to achieve those goals. To date there has not been a single plan, bill, proposal or piece of legislation that would even begin to meet these goals.

Once again, it's fantasy vs. reality. These lofty ambitions running headlong into the harsh realities of implementing them.

So where do you get your opinions if not the main stream media or internet? So far you've basically reiterarted Pres. Obama's speech word for word, and you even indicated as much. Thats not an opinion, that is parroting another person's opinion. Its ceasing to think independently about rhetoric and the unintended consequences of that rhetoric.

All these legitimate (death panels not withstanding) questions we've seen in opposition are based on people not repeating the soundbites of those in power, but questioning them. I won't go over the legitmacy of the arguments, we've argued them to death, but the reasons are mulifaceted and numerous. To me the proof of legitimacy is a basic as seeing the polls show more opposition over time and exposure to the realities of public option healthcare bills. Hell, it's even been abandoned because of how unpopular they've been.

This is why I asked you to express details on how it would work. How these lofty goals could be made reality. If you don't have anything in that area except for a speech Obama made over a month ago, much less any actual legislation, then you have failed to ask questions and instead have become a sycophant.

If you can't answer why or HOW a public option would work as mandated by the President, and no one else has ben able to do so either, then you have your answer as to why there is opposition. It's that simple.