Lol Shadow... way to twist words.

But it's only one of many factors. You said it was the "ONLY" thing before.

Lmao, twist... we are talking about consoles, not a PC... and even if we were, a PC has SOOOOOO many features that consoles couldn't do that makes up for the price.

those didn't come out at the wrong time, they just simply weren't sucsessful.. Some are add ons, one was hard to develop for, and the rest had no chance to begin with.

lol, what a joke... first of all, when NES came out that wasn't a requirement... and second, you would rather have that save feature then not. Imagine trying to play "great" games ike Zelda OoT, or Metroid pime with no memory card... and lets not even imagine animal crossing.

No, don't get it twisted yet again.. YOU were the one saying "EVERYONE" buys consoles for Games... The fact is, the person who laid down the cash doesn't have to be in it for the games...

Also, I said Games are a main factor, but it's not the ONLY factor, like you are trying to say.

Let's see... Japanese gamers are racist aginst american games/systems. Also, don't try to swing it back the other way for Nintendo's lack of sucsess in america, because America has urchased a Japanese made console more than ANYTHING.

If Xbox was made in Japan, it would be selling better, period.

No, it isn't... Which system is priced better? Which system came out earlier (especially in Japan)? Xbox has the hardware features over GCN, that's it. GCN has Price, timing, and argueably games. n america though, Xbox has Timing, Hardware features, and argueably games.

And I repeat yet again, a main factor, not the only factor...

If it were the only factor, DC would have ate Ps2 alive at launch, butdid it, HELLLLLLLLLL no.

He could be bluffing. But i think the Cell technology will be great but a pain in ass to develop for it. Also with the latest info about Ati's newest chips, looks like the big N's net console will be doing some damage.

Game/Stu, I guess you didn't read my post from the get goAnd yes, Stu, that "all" was a play on your own words, and was a sarcastic question, not a statement, nor a fact.

What I said above was always my point, which both of you have been agreeing with all the time; only The Game has some really invalid reasons for proving "features" is a factor of success.

And while I'm thinking about that "if Xbox was made in Japan" remark, wasn't the Saturn made in Japan? 32X? NeoGeo? Using your logic, why exactly didn't they sell well?

Like I said, there was no debate to begin with; looking at the whole thing, we were basically arguing over who worded their statements the best while saying the exact same thing.

-Official Ninja of [coming soon]...

You have to be joking...

Don't give those as examples, give US consoles that sold well in Japan as examples... wait, you can't, because there are none. 90% of the reason Xbox is failing in Japan is the fact that it's american made, and over there american made games or consoles are just a joke.

Also, your examples are also bad because they didn't sell well anywhere, not just in that region. Xbox is beating GCN in two places where Japanese consoles have allways (and still are) dominating. But GCN is beating Xbox in Japan because they are biased against American made consoles. And like I said before, Sony still dominates over here, so you can't say we are biased against Japanese consoles.

In your opinion, %90 of the reason Xbox is failing in Japan is that it's american made. If you can't prove this The Game, don't state it as fact.Hmm..what of the Sega Master System then, which sold comparable to the NES in the US, but nowhere near in Japan? Yes, Xbox is currently, and even with the 2 free games gimmick, not by much. While history proves, that isn't entirely true, or DOAX (yes I know it's made by japanese Tecmo) wouldn't have sold as many copies as it has there simply because it's on Xbox. And while this isn't a console, Amercian-made Mortal Kombat 2 was a serious quarter-muncher in japanese arcades for quite awhile in the late 90's. Not entirely biased, many of US games just don't appeal to them. Surely a Final Fantasy or Lufia game will sell oodles on Xbox in Japan if that were possible.And why would I say that? Japanese games have dominated the industry even when the Atari was the top console; nearly all of the supporting software was from japanese developers, including Nintendo and Sega.;)

-Official Ninja of [coming soon]...

Well, quit asking questions there is no answer to... unless you want to hear my opinion I highly suggest you start coming up with your own answers.

Now, let me throw it back in your face, if the reason for Xbox's failure in Japan isn't because of Japanese bias against US made game/consoles, what is the reason?

I can't seem to find a reason better than "because it's american made"... if you have a better reason say it. I promise it will be no more valid then what I have said... be sure to give examples.

1) Xbox is the first any only American made console to have support from a lot of Japanese developers... meaning it has Japanese games, the only kind of games that seem to sell well over there.

2) That's because they didn't have a fighting game that realistic of thier own... once japanese developers started copying the realistic approach to fighting games, MK just fell off the map.

3) You are proving my point by saying that American made games don't appeal to Japanese gamers. Why don't they appeal? Better yet, why don't american made consoles appeal to them?

4) Yes, Final Fantasy would sell a lot if it were released on Xbox, because those are popular japanese made games.

You really underestimate my knowlege on video games... unless you don't remember yourself, Nintendo did some illegal stuff to keep SMS off of store shelves.

Give me a break... GCN had a $50 to $100 price advantage thise whole generation so far... and Xbox's deal didn't start until around a year after both consoles were released.

Oh, and lets not forget GCN enjoyed an extra fall season in Japan AND GCN is basically offering the same deal as we speak.

Because you are in the mood for debating as I see, why don't you touch on some of those.

Interesting how that works, no?;)Simple- because Xbox and it's games aren't selling, PS2 is, and GameCube is also.:DI guess you don't remember the 3DO, then. Capcom, Konami, Tecmo, Treasure, etc were all Japanese developers for that console, based in America. Scratch number 1.What fighting game wasn't this "realistic"? Last I checked, there was no japanese-developed console/arcade title with digitized characters. And if you mean total realism as far as presentation is concerned, keep in mind that Soul Edge and Virtua Fighter 2 were available at the exact same time. Scratch number 2.Note I said "many" of US games, not all. Fifa sells oodles in Japan, 'nuff said. To be totally generalistic, Xbox is the only console that won't be getting Gundam anytime soon (do I even need to harp on how popular this is over there?), while GCN and PS2 currently have new titles in the works. These consoles also have more "niche titles" (Mr Misquito, Doshin, Animal Leader, Crossgate, etc) specifically for that market available, which once again Xbox lacks or is in the vast minority. Plus, PS2/GCN have what I call "platinum duality":

PS2 has two great games that really push hardware sales, GTA series, and Gundam. While GTA definately wouldn't compete in Japan, it's sold birds in US and UK. Gundam does the exact opposite, with some 10 million copies sold in Japan over that series (so far 3 games and 6 PSX games).

GCN has two great games as well- Super Smash Bros: Melee, which is allergic to non-platinum status in any major territory, and Metroid Prime, which will no doubt gobble up the US and UK markets, and once again get downed in Japan.

Xbox doesn't even come close to this status, even with DOA3 and DOAX and Halo. They own the US and UK markets, but can't put a dent in Japan.

Is this what you were pushing for from me- a theory like this one? While it's entertaining, at the same time it's true.So, I'm NOT agreeing with you, and once again I say, games are a major factor. You yourself here admit that even though Xbox is an american console, if it had more games that appealed to Japan, sales would increase. This wouldn't be true if the japanese were totally biased against Xbox, which is what you were claiming. Put Nintendo or Sony in Microsoft's shoes, with no Square, no Enix, no Mario/Zelda/Spyro/Gundam, and they'd be selling just as poorly. Quite frankly, DC would be the console of choice in Japan then via the Gundam and Sakura Wars collection it does have.:yippie:And if I recall, that was only in the US, and they got fined, and the Master System still had relatively good sales. What about Japan?And when did Xbox sales INCREASE, though? Right after the price cut to $200, and right after the pack-in deal. Nintendo's numbers stayed steady regardless, and even with the bundle deal going on against them, they still outsold Xbox in the UK until January. Plus, Halo was also free with the JSRF/GT bundle- 3 games for 175 bucks (since Xbox also cut price like a mutha to keep from failing there- three times IIRC).GCN had a two month lead in Japan over Xbox in the US, which is equivalent to Xbox's two month lead in UK over GCN (GCN wasn't released until May, and Xbox in March). Hardly relevant, if you're trying to prove extra time as an advantage here. It's happened to both consoles the exact same way.

And since when is GCN offering two free games when you buy a GCN? Are they also throwing in Smash DX for free in the UK like Xbox did with Halo? If not, how is this "basically offering the same deal as we speak"?I've already touched on those, when I quoted and responded to them and told you why. Feel free to read them over; I don't have the time to say the same thing over and over again.

-Official Ninja of [coming soon]...

lol, I almost forget about this topic...

and that has nothing to do with Japanese bias? How so?

yes, I remember the joke named 3DO... I dunno, I never really considerd that to be even a console, with it's insane price and all. I guess Xbox is #2, but Xbox is the only one to not have somthing insanely wrong with the hardware too. :D

define platnum duality

Also, I see your point, maybe Xbox needs a game that has allready been popular over there for years ;)

But from the looks of it, they aren't really open to new things, well, at least not as much as US and Europe. I still think they would be a little more open to a game like Halo if it were released on GCN or Ps2, but thier bias has nothing to do with that does it?

lol, why doesn't GTA sell much in Japan? Also, I'm pretty sure Ps2's launch success had nothing to do with game quality. I mean, does TTT and Ridge Racer really compete with what Xbox had out at launch? Yet Ps2 sells more (yeah, just admit, in this scenario it isn't "all about the games") :)

as far as I know, Metriod isn't owning anything here... it's just getting owned by games on it's own platform. Zelda is getting more pre-orders day-to-day than Metriod is getting sales.

You didn't really answer my question... WHY doesn't US made games or consoles appeal to japanese gamers? I mean, besides the fact that it's US made. What I got from you is that it's just not selling, no true reason.

Funny, you just went two ways here... first you say that I admit games would save Xbox, then you turn around and say DC would have been the console of choice. Why wasn't DC the console of choice? Did it really have anything to do with game quality?

I think it had much more to do with hardware power and features, or lack there of.

GCN still has the price advantage... if it were all about the games that would be all that matters. Why isn't GCN selling more right now?

I mean, $50 price advantage, and you get your choice of one game for free. Right now in US a person can spend $200 on an Xbox with 2 free pre-selected games, or for the same $200 get one of four free games, AND another game of choice. This deal is lightyears better than Xbox's, but from the start of it GCN's sales remained steady :p

No, it's not the equivelent... the SEASON a console is released in makes a difference. Xbox hit it at much worse timing that GCN in Japan... and in UK they both had bad timing. It's not the same.

not the same deal, a better one, refer to earlier in my post.

Also, all I'm trying to do is show you the light... game quality isn't the only factor in a consoles success. There have been conssoles with good game quality to fail, and consoles with weak game quality to succeed. Some consoles just end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some are just too weak, some too expensive, and some just lacking things hardware wise that consumers have come to expect... and some do just lack the game quality.

It's not the only factor though.

Oh Christ...
 

Tell me this, if you're so intent on this "bias", and Japanese being the forefront of it, then why was Xbox doing just as bad before it's ultra pricecuts and free game scams after totally bombing the first 2 months in the UK/Austrailia? Is this also because Aussies/UK peeps have "bias" against Xbox, or is it because the best game for the system (Halo) wasn't even available for launch some month or so later? Why was GCN just as bad until Smash DX was released in the UK?Pikmin/Animal Forest weren't popular in Japan for years, and neither was XenoSaga...there's no reason Xbox can't have these same games that ARE NEW.Read above.And that would explain why Metroid Prime, and many other first-person RPG's/Shooters sell horribly in Japan on PS2, let alone GCN? Halo would bomb in Japan no matter what console it was on...seen any good sales of any FPS's in Japan lately?

On the contrary, Xenosaga would sell on Xbox, as may True Fantasy Live if it's done right.Read above; no it doesn't- otherwise the console wouldn't be selling at all, and DOAX wouldn't have done as well. DOAX sold damn-near the Xbox user base in Japan.I dunno, but according your logic, it should sell oodles because it's not on an american made system, right?;)Or are you...??Of course not, but was Xbox launching the same time as PS2? No. Was PS2 already out and dominating, along with GCN, when Xbox FINALLY launched in Japan? Hell yes. Did Xbox's launch lineup even come close to PS2's plethora of available titles, or GCN's monster Luigi's Manion, let alone Smash DX? HELL NO.Read above. Actually it is all about the games here as well. Xbox's launch lineup was last, meaning existing hardware had the upper hand with more titles available as well as better titles that fit that niche' market. Only DOA3 fit, and even it's sales were lackluster in comparison to the wide amount of Japanese titles available for the other two consoles this time last year.Metroid Prime is the closest holiday title to a million copies right now (Mario Party 4 is not far behind). This is what I meant. It's not too far under Splinter Cell in the US, and is doing very well, and will no doubt do good in the UK. However, MP only sold some 50k in Japan so far, but even that's better than I expected.Honestly, there are no games- which is what I've said over and over now. Look at the Japanese lineup of games compared to PS2's or GCN's. If Xbox had these games PS2 and GCN had, and they didn't, Xbox would be leading in sales there- at least in software.Funny, you misread my post. I was saying DC would be the console of choice if PS2/GCN didn't have all the Japanese games they have now, which would give DC the edge because it DOES. Read carefully next time.It was the console of choice; moreso than the PS2 until it died- then PS2 picked up. You don't recall this?In this instance, yes and no. In a way it had to do with the hardware since it wasn't there anymore, and in a way it was the software because there couldn't possibly further support for a dead console. Next.Then why was DC ruling with an iron fist in Japan with PS2 sharing the same market? Why were Sakura Wars games outselling PS2 games by millions of units until they were ported to PS2? And better yet, Nintendo 64 had better hardware than PSX- why did PSX outsell it in hardware (though not software)?

How is that hardware-related, going by your theory?Sure GCN has the price advantage- NOW...but how in the hell do you figure a GCN with two games at $250 is an "advantage" over an Xbox with two games at $200? This was the situation from May till December, and that bundle sold MS an extra 3 million units.

Sure, you get a GCN and two games for the same price as an Xbox and two games NOW, but even then GCN's are sold alone for the same $150, and sold. No solo Xbox's were to be found at major retailers for that same $200, and you know this- MS pretty much replaced the standalone with their bundle, while Nintendo didn't. How is this an advantage even now with peeps buying solo GCN consoles like idiots (400k so far)?

And you still haven't told me how $300 for a GCN and 3 games is an advantage over an Xbox and 3 games for $200 in the UK (and that 3rd game is Halo)...Read above.Read above again. How in the hell do you figure this is "lightyears better", and what of the deal in the UK where you get an Xbox and three games free?How is it not? GCN gained about the same sales advantage in Japan as Xbox did launching in UK...almost nothing until their heavy-hitters (Smash DX and Halo respectively) appeared months later.I never said it was; read my post before this one where I QUOTED such. I know this, but please believe it's the major defining factor.And those consoles are manufactured by companies that had heavy losses from earlier consoles they made that had no good game quality (Sega, NEC, SNK)...Name ONE.Here I'd have to agree and disagree. While all of the statements are true, every console that has failed was because of a combination of these things, not just one in particular. However, the consoles that did succeed were majorly led by game sales to keep the consoles afloat, and that is a fact.I agree.;)

-Official Ninja of [coming soon]...

*yawn*

Lets see, where is the developer Rareware based? How long after Microsoft purchased them did sales turn around? I think that UK is bias in a sense too, but thier baby went to Microsoft, and they are following.

No reason? LOL

First of all, use American made games as examples, we allready know anything with the name Nintendo on it is going to sell successfully at worst.

Also, did you see some of the reviews for Animal crossing? It ranged everywhere from a 3.0 to an 8.5. If it wasn't for the fact that Nintendo made it, it wouldn't have been popular anywhere. Let a game like that be on Xbox, and a new fresh developer make it, it wouldn't have enjoyed the success of the GCN version no matter how you look at it.

But this has nothing to do with bias in this case, it simply has to do with who is developing the game and not how good or bad the game is.

Also, Xenogears has a cult following... if that were released on Xbox (still a japanese game so please don't give a dumb reply) it would still sell. Or, then again, more fans may have paid attention to the fact that Xenosaga isn't a sequal to Xenogears, and it would hae failed. But because it's on Ps2, people seem to blind themselves to that fact. Hell, some people probably are ignorant to the fact that Square didn't even develop the game this time around.

But it's all maybes... people think Xenogears/Square when they see Xenosaga. Maybe that thought force would havge been different had to been released on Xbox.

Did Ps2's launch line up compete with DC's "plethora of available titles" when it was launched? No, but ever single damn Ps2 was off the shelf.

Well, let me do like you and say "read above"

With the free game deal I'm sure it will pass SC. But if not for that I doubt Metriod would really go anywhere fast at this point in time.

*claps*

I agree 110%. Ps2 and GCN have name recognition, and that's basically why thier games sell better. But I'm not dropping the bias angle... because time and time again Japan proves not to go for US made games, no matter how well they do at gamerankings.com :p

I mean, you can sit here and say you don't like Halo, and I can sit here and say I don't like Metriod.... but most people do, and Japan is not buying it, why? Like I said over and over, give me a better reason than bias against american made games. We both know the bad sales have notta to do with game quality.

I find it easy to relate poor american made game sales in Japan to poor American made console sales in Japan.

??? Umm, you lost me. Try explaining it in different words, one more time.

No, I recall poor Japanese console sales, and half decent US console sales. While the game sales stayed atop Ps2 until it's death. Ps2 still outsold DC week to week from the day it was launched. (well, maybe DC stole some weeks because of the shortage, but from Ps2's launch to DC's death Ps2 in fact did sell more)

Read above, that doesn't explain why more Ps2's got into homes than DCs in that time period before DC's death. Of course DC held it's little head start, but for those months Ps2 smacked the DC.

Head starts don't count.. Month to month Ps2 beat DC in hardware sales.

More units sold=more people to sell games to.

Woah woah woah... I gave more factors than just hardware in success. Here's a quote:

"timing, pricing, hardware features, and games equally"

You see where I'm going right? If not... let's see.

timing: Psx came out a year earlier, people had enough time to adjust to the new brand

pricing: Psx costed less and had much cheaper games

Hardware features: Well, N64 got Psx in graphics, but Psx introduced somthing new in CD's.

Games: They both had good games, Psx just had the mass appeal. Nintendo got half assed support from Capcom, Konami, Nacmo, and EA, and no support from Square.

Let's not forget N64 still sold past the 50 million mark.

How do you know it's the bundle that helped sell the console? I know it can't hurt, but I'm sure many people didn't buy an Xbox just to get JSRF and SegaGT. Whille gamers now basacally get two games of choice to battle that Xbox with. You have to admit, if you didn't have a console this generation and you were trying to decide on which to buy and you had $250, chances are you (as I) would sway GCN's way due to freedom of selection period.

err, read above

read above AND read here

You get your personal choice, that's why GCN's deal would be better. Some people would rather just buy a GCN with Mario for $200 over Xbox and those free pre-selected games. So a GCN with one game of choice is a better deal to some people than Xbox with 3. It just depends on what you want/like. You get more freedom in Nintendo's camp though.

read above

season is still a factor. In UK GCN was released at a time where it had a fair chance to catch up... in Japan Xbox was released a bit too late to take any fire from GCN. This holdiday season was the true test, Xbox won in one place, and GCN won in the other.

it no more of a factor than Price. If GCN costed $2000 and the games were $4000 a peice Bill gates not many peeps will buy it. Just like if the games aren't popular enough, or just not good enough.

Now, on the other end of the spectrum, having good games could possibly be the biggest thing to drive console sales, but DC proved it isn't.

if Sega had such hevy losses, why bother making a new console? Heavy losses isn't what killed it, Ps2 is.

That's all a matter of opinion. There are people I know online who feel Ps2's game quality isn't even close to that of GCN's or Xboxs. Yet it still owns?

There are plenty of people who would say N64's games MURDER Psx's games (including me, aside from sports games) but Psx still owned right?

What point are you trying to get at? For every console to fail there are thousands of people who like it, and for every console to succeed there are thousands of people to hate it. So yes, consoles with weak game quality by many people's standards do succeed.

Now, that's why game quality isn't even what I talk about when I mentioned games as a factor, it more of name recognition. Quality is random, one person's trash is another person's treasure. There is no true way to define game quality without polling all the gamers who own consoles. Lets say game sales are the poll of quality... then why is Metriod considerd one of the best games of all times, and NFL 2k3 rated higher than Madden 2003 at most reviewing sources?

Game quality has a lot to do with it, but that doesn't mean a quality game will sell, and a crappy game won't sell like crazy.

Have you checked GBA's game attach rate? GBA's success doesn't really come from game quality does it? GBA doesn't have to release a good game for the next nine months to stay afloat.

Have you also checked Ps2's attach rates around the demise of DC? In Japan there was less than one game sold for every console sold. Yet it still pumped out more hardware, and got Sega in such a scared state that they had to quit.

Good... so you agree with basically the only point I'm trying to get accross.

Then by your excuse you just made, Nintendo shoud've still tanked in the UK even after the release of Smash DX, right? I mean, since you're basically blaming this on a second-now-first-party devver, surely the loss of Rare would've done them in.

It didn't. Care to explain why else Smash DX seems to be the only saving grace for GCN?

BTW, Rare didn't leave Nintendo until mid-September; so why was Xbox doing well until then, eh?OK, why is Fifa doing well on Xbox in Japan?That's not true; and you know that. Stop exaggerating, before I begin to name the flood of failures both companies have released.OK, you wanna keep exaggerating. Explain how Animal Leader sold NOTHING in Japan, yet coming from the same company, and was released TWICE (N64/GCN). Animal Forest/Crossing, on the other hand, sold fairly well in Japan on N64 as well as it's GCN sequel. Both are by Nintendo, are they not? Legend of Dragoon wasn't that hot in Japan either, yet it rocked the USA, regardless of being primarily developed internally at SCEA.

Find an excuse for those.Who said anything about "fresh new developers"? My whole point is that Xbox doesn't have as many games that work well in Japan as GCN/PS2 do, and IF IT DID, the console would sell well there, regardless of this "bias" you claim is the dominant force. Crossgate, a MMORPG/RTS hybrid is doing stellar in Japan; but it's by a US developer, though published by Enix. There are too many variables to even declare bias as being real.

Bottom line: If the games were on Xbox, they will sell, not "they aren't selling because the audience is biased", but eh...I'll say this again, look at Crossgate, Fifa/World Cup, Gundam, etc...Bandai definately isn't a great name per-se; same with EA in Japan. Yet, the games sell. This is nowhere near "simple" and it has alot more to do with how good or bad the game is in that market as opposed to who made the damn thing. If Midway made a Gundam game and shipped it to Japan, do you really think it WON'T sell well?What the piss?!!! Xenogears being mistaken for XenoSaga and vice-versa? Where the hell did you get that excuse from? Link?

The Japanese audience is more aware of upcoming titles than we are (and have been for years), IMO...how the hell did you come up with that??In JAPAN, people are this ignorant? Enough to help PS2 sales go thru the roof in the homeland? Right...:rolleyes:

You're really making no sense now, and your point is even more skewed than before- if you're trying to make one here...So you aren't sure? Or do you know for a fact XenoSaga sold well in Japan because of an oversight? Link?Alot of maybe's going on now, since you stated it as fact a few quotes ago...And if you look at the sales charts during that time, copies of Tekken Tag went right off the shelves with it.

I'll say this again: GAMES.Likewise.;)Moreso than the fact that they are actually good (to the Japanese audience, anyways)? Why didn't Orta sell oodles in Japan based on this, yet Tecmo sold better with DOA3?

If Tao Feng is released in Japan, the game will probably get decent sales (being a fighter, and a decent one- which sell well in that area)...Read above; and once again think about Fifa's performance, Crossgate, and [insert Disney game here] that are made by US design teams or published by a US publisher.And I'll say this again, since you seemed to avoid it: What First-person game has sold well in Japan, regardless of who developed it?I don't know how you can say that when certain sales for Xbox did well, and certain American made games sold well and still continue to sell in Japan. With that fact, derive this notion.Imagine this:

-Xbox, GCN and PS2 don't have Final Fantasy, Gundam, Pokemon, Winning Eleven, Soul Calibur, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, etc...

-Dreamcast does.

-Dreamcast would be the console of choice.

Is that clarified now?"Poor"?? I don't recall DC selling less than 50k a week until well after PSO was released in 2000. And yes, DC was still rocking PS2 with Sakura Wars alone, even during the release of FFX, even though the console had surpassed the DC in install base by then.Yes it did; and your install base=more sales pose ends right there; regardless of PS2 outselling DC in hardware, the software still remained high until well after Sega's departure from console manufacturing-FACT."Don't count"? This isn't some fourth-grade football game; you wanna set rules for a debate now?

Seriously, DC still was the DOMINANT console- no if's and's or but's about it.Explain how no Sakura Wars game has sold as well as those on DC, with a larger installed base? Hell, explain how it outsold FFX in Japan...And here's another, that's very contradictary to what you just said:And alsoThis was what I was denouncing; and why are you saying this here if it's really about "other factors as well" in your mind? Guess you forgot to type the rest there, eh?;)Because I have the NPD data sheets that specifically state the Xbox bundle accounting for 3 million units sold of the 5 million Xboxes to-date. Why do you think otherwise?Well maybe not- maybe they just bought the thing BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONLY XBOX SYSTEM AVAILABLE, or maybe just because they just wanted the games as collectors' items or something...:rolleyes:No, I wouldn't- there's only a selection of FOUR games, The Game. If you don't want any of those four, you're still in the same rutt as the majority of the existing Xbox audience now.And once again- likewise.;)Suppose your opinion on this IS true- what's your point? You said "games aren't the major factor, right"? Why should it matter what two games you get, eh?And numbers are still numbers. How do you figure GCN had an "advantage" if both Xbox and GameCube sold the same amount during GCN's head start in Japan, and Xbox's head start in the UK? Sounds pretty even to me...:unsure:And here I meticulously quote you again:You're not even agreeing with yourself, let alone with me. WTF?Then what was keeping the damn thing afloat after it launched? Hardware sales of itself only, and NO GAMES? Does the DC not have more console sales now than that of Nintendo and Microsoft worldwide?

Elaborate, especially since the only thing that killed DC was Sega's own failures with the Saturn and other financial issues internally.Bad planning, and spending going on with foreign relations, or did you know that? Sega sold more than enough consoles for profit, yet they weren't making any, even with all the software sales on top of that. Sega was still in the hole- no two ways about it.

PS2 could've not released and Sega would still be in the same trouble they're in now, like it or not- there isn't a single publication that agrees with you on this one.

If what you say is true (which it damn-sure isn't), why the hell were games still selling oodles after PS2's launch UNTIL Sega went bankrupt?You didn't answer my question: NAME ONE; one console that had overall poor selection of games/quality and SUCCEEDED.And if this recognition was the case, then every Tecmo/Capcom and Sega game would've sold just as well on Xbox as they have on PS2/GCN in Japan. Hardly true. Next.Not random when games sell in the excess of 1 million+ units. Next.Good point- which also aludes to mine; more Xbox games that CATER to the Japanese audience will sell the console, since it's all on opinion anyway- regardless of it being an American-made console.Good point; but a popular game is still GOOD to whoever buys it- being "quality" to them. Gundam isn't nowhere near quality in my eyes, but I assure you the Japanese market will beg to differ.Once again, this quality depends on mass opinion in that area. Alot of Famitsu scores that are very bad in Japan end up with big press over here and vice-versa.Have you seen the game sales of GBA? There's not one top-ten that doesn't include a GBA game that lists it as a console. The attach rate isn't well for the same reason as PSX- too many bloody games, though favorites like Golden Sun, Castlevania, etc help and move even more GBA's (like that horrible outbreak we call Pokemon).And have you checked out how many people own GTA3, Sakura Wars, Metal Gear Solid, and Madden? Like GBA, there are ALOT of games out, and unfortunately only a select few get all the sales. What console tops nearly every sales chart (besides GBA)? Too many units amongst a dozen games, while the rest suffer.Which one, this:Or this:I agree with the former, but not the latter.;)

-Official Ninja of [coming soon]...

*sigh*

I fell victim to a timed out connection... after spending 40+ minutes writing a reply. So, I have decided that this will be my last reply. I'll let you have the last word in this topic. I would have kept going, but damn, a disconnect like that really can break the spirt.

Anyway, just for the hell of it I'm going to start from the last quote in your post and work my way up to the first.

What is the difference? They mean the same thing. Quit looking for a contradiction where there isn't one. You agreed with me when I said it's not the only factor, in both quotes you gave of mine I express how it's not the only factor. So what is your point?

Looks to me like you have none. In both of my quotes Games are listed both as one of the main factors, and not the only factor. So what are you trying to say?

What is your point? Millions of Ps2's sell, and 7 games are sold per system sold, while Millions of GBAs are sold and a horrible 2 games are sold for each unit sold. GBA has nothing in common with Ps2 in that sense.

Also, your reply has NOTHING to do what you quoted. I'm starting to think you are losing your mind. What does GBA, GTA3, Metal Gear Solid, or Madden have to do with DC's or Ps2's launch in Japan??? Maybe you should read what I write instead of going off base so much.

Ps2 ships more hardware at launch, Ps2's attach rate is less than one game sold for every system sold, Ps2 still manages to sell more hardware than Dreamcast month to month. Why? That's all you needed to answer, plain and simple.

We are debating about what factor moves console sales... or did you forget?

In Ps2's case games didn't move jack hit (with a capatal 'S')... DVD's sold the hardware. If you deny it, give good reason.

Too many games would equal a much better attach rate, too few games would mean a much worse attach rate. So what the hell are you talking about? If there were a million games that were good for GBA, the attach Rate would be much higher, maybe even past what Ps2's attach rate is.

Ps2 had weak, and very few games at launch in Japan, but that's no excuse for the hardware to be outselling the software. If GBA had too many games, owners would own more games, but they dont.

Once again your reply has nothing to do with nothing. I was talking about US alone when I said AC's scores ranged from 8.5 all the way down to 3.0. Two US reviewers can disagree, just like two Japanese reviewers can disagree. But the game sales (or lack there of) is the vote by the fans on which games they consider to be quality or not. Japan is basically voting out pretty much all US comers as not being quality.

and for the 50th damn time, give me a better reason than my bias theory... if you are trying to disprove it give another theory. Because simply pooring out excuses for why I'm wrong without you knowing the true answer isn't helping.

This is almost as pointless as debating about religion, one guy has a belief, and the other can't disprove it, so the first guy will still continue to believe in that he thinks the answer is until there is a better answer given. Which there isn't.

Yeah, just like Halo is quality in my eyes and Japenese gamers would beg to differ... well, maybe not the few people who acctually gave the game a chance.

You still don't understand, it wouldn't sell AS good as it would if it were released on GCN or Ps2. Because Xbox is american made.

I remember watching a show of g4tv, they were trying to pursuade Japanese gamers to buy Xboxes. It was pretty funny, because thier perception of Xbox was FAR from the truth. They thought it was basically the size of a tower computer, and that it had no games. Half the people dissing on Xbox never played it, and when they did thier opinions switched rather quick.

Not random? What are you talking about? You can't possibly be a fan of every game the sells 1 million or more copies. If you are, more power to ya, but I'm not. I think sales have nothing to do with quality in my eyes. Only quality in the plublic eyes. So yes, quality IS random, depending on the person buying the game... and a million persons treasure can also be a million people's trash. Just a fact of life. For everything you dislike, there is a person out there who likes it.

No they wouldn't. Because Xbox is an American made console... haven't I been saying this the whole damn time? Unless somthing is wildly popular (which origanal Sega games and Tecmo/Capcom aren't) it would move Xboxes. But any game from a good developer just won't sell by the boat load on Xbox because of the bias.

You are making it sound like I said popular games on Xbox would sell just as much as they would on Ps2/GCN in Japan. No they wouldn't. No matter how you look at it, in Japan they would never live up to thier full game sell potential if it was an Xbox exclusive.

Yes, more popular games could help the box, but it wouldn't help them as much as passing up Nintendo or even coming close to Ps2.

Didn't I just explain how that is all opinion based? *shoots dead horse*

Anyway, are you talking about by my standards, or by reveiwer's standards, Or by the thing I allready threw out as a factor in my opinion on a game, sales?

Where are you getting this BS? Is it time for me to bring in links?

"All hope is not lost for the Dreamcast platform, however. Bellfield explained that "We're not giving up on Dreamcast. We'll continue to support the platform well into the next 18 months, and beyond that, as long as it is profitable." Now that Sega is moving out of the costly hardware business, this should prove to be a tricky proposition, as the system's limited install base will undoubtedly limit sales potential for new software."
http://dreamcast.ign.com/articles/090/090854p1.html

So if it wasn't profitable, why not leave it alone?

"Here's what went wrong, according to Sega. Previously, game consoles were sold on the oft-publicized razor principle, where you sell the razor at or below cost and make all your money selling blade cartridges. Similarly, one used to sell game systems at or below cost and make all the money back on software. According to Sega, this strategy didn't work with Dreamcast as the hardware cost was too high. Furthermore, the company was forced to discount the price of its hardware in order to remain competitive, which further added to the problem. Combine this with a difficult software market, and the Dreamcast business model was not able to meet the required returns in software for balancing out hardware sales."
http://dreamcast.ign.com/articles/090/090862p1.html

And that has what to do with thier past?

Depending on which industry analyst you believe, Sega has sold somewhere between 3.9 and 4.5 million Dreamcasts in North America, falling well short of their goal of 7.5 units by March 2001. The price drop is a likely occurrence in light of Sega's plans to cease traditional Dreamcast production and focus on licensing Dreamcast technology to set-top manufacturers such as Pace Micro Technology, with whom Sega confirmed a partnership earlier this week."
http://dreamcast.ign.com/articles/090/090796p1.html

Fell short of goal, like I said

Ok, understand? Sega isn't Microsoft, so they can't handle the losses, but the fact is Sega had enough money to make a console, and have it survive if it reaches thier sales forecasts... which Dreamcast didn't. So please, stop making other false excuses for Sega flopping. The reason it flopped is because the hardware sales didn't reach the goals, no matter how well software was doing. Period.

Read above... if hardware sales would have stayed good enough, Sega would still be competing.

What the hell? Now you are pissing me off. I said games aren't the only factor. Right? I gave an example of how games aren't the only factor. Right? So how the hell am I disagreeing with myself?

You have bad logic, maybe that's why it sounds even. It got the same lead, yes, but GCN was released at a time in UK where it would be easy to dig out of the hole it was in... while Xbox in Japan was released at a time where it would be much harder to dig out of thier hole.

LMAO, you make no sense. I say it doesn't count because it's a head start, period. Ps2 has a head start, but it's still domanant because it has not ONCE fell behing GCN or Xbox in sales. DC was not dominant because from the day Ps2 was launched Ps2 sold more month to month and week to week.

If domanance isn't dominating the head up comptition from the later competitior's release date, then GBA and Psx are dominating in sales right now. :rolleyes:

hahaha... you are killing me man. Your statement shows exactly how important game sales are anyway. Also, aren't we talking about what drives hardware sales? DC may have had better games are better selling games, but did that save them? Nope.

Also, DC had a bigger install base, but it wasn't selling faster. So my bigger install base=more sales pose remains. There were more DC's in homes, so more DC games sold. But great games didn't save the system from folding at the hands of Ps2.

I dunno... what popular Japanese developer made a great FPS?

Sports games will appeal to any country because every country has sports. I'm not going to look at Madden 2003's sales in Japan because American football isn't a native sport of thiers. :)

Also, you are talking about games that have a popular licence to begin with. Where is the origanal US content with no pre-popular licence that sells well in Japan?

Wel'll have to wait and see what happens. As for your example, PDO didn't sell well anywhere. Maybe people just didn't consider it to be a good game.

3/5 of Ps2 owners had one game, ONE game, may that be Ridge Racer, or Tekken Tag. But of course DVD sales went up during the time, because that was the reason for the plublic buying the PS2 in the first place. Tekken was fliying about as far as a Chicken.

lol, if there was NO confusion why would every preview, and most reviews have to say it over and over again that the game doesn't have anything to do with Xenogears? Hell, I was about to buy the game because I loved Xenogears.

A great licence can push any developer far... and I allready touched on Fifa. Microsoft could develop Pokemon Black and Green for GBA and people would buy it. In this case it's all about the licence.

Now, like I said before, where is the origanal US content to sell well in Japan?

If the popular franchise game is on PS2 it will sell well, if the game is on GCN it would just sell, and if the game is on Xbox it will sell a lot less than it could have.

You find an excuse....use common sense. What was N64 going up against at the time of it's release? What other software titles was AL going up against at the time of it's release? Did it have more/less competition than AC on GCN? Did it have a harder time being noticed?

There is allways a reason.

ok, on GCN, name the flood of games released by Nintendo that got both bad reviews and bad sales.

After the announcement Xbox sales pumped up, and GCN sales fell. GCN's only chance of a rebound got sold...


17956 characters! probably a personal record. Like I said before, the last word is all yours. I refuse to waste any more of my life in this topic.

So "timing, pricing, hardware features, and games equally" means games the main factor? Don't look like the same thing to me- more like

"before I was agreeing that it was the main factor, now I'm saying they're all equal some 4 posts later"

But eh...I'll leave it alone.Looking for one? It's right there in both of our faces. Which one is it- main factor, or equal factor?Read above.How do you figure? Are PS2 and GBA not consoles with singular games selling in multiple millions in Japan over a 6-month period?

7 games on PS2, 2 on GBA- both were sold millions of times more than any other software on the unit. YES THEY DO HAVE TO DO WITH EACH OTHER IN THIS RESPECT.

In fact, I'm not even going to go any further, since you said you wouldn't reply anymore.

To shorten your read, you believe Xbox isn't successful in Japan because of bias, yet you're saying this "timing, blah, blah, etc" are main factors. How could bias be the main reason if these "factors" of yours ARE in actuality? Another double standard.

Point being, Xbox isn't dying in Japan because of bias, it's dying because of a lack of games that support the audience. You tried to make a point saying [insert FPS here] should sell oodles in Japan because we love it here, but that's never been their forte' and you know it. Just as they hate FPS's and American football, we hate the quirky dog/misquito sims they enjoy.

If Xbox is victim to bias because of this, then GCN/PS2 are for the same reasons these Japan-oriented games sell poorly stateside, or get cancelled altogether.

And since this stuck out in my head more, Sin and Punishment, Animal Leader, Doshin the Giant N64, Donkey Kong 64, GoldenEye, Exitebike, Killer Instinct anything, and WaveRace BlueStorm are just a few Nintendo-published titles that sold poorly in Japan, especially compared to the US. Name brand means nothing if the people don't buy it. Another example of this would be the Nintendo broadband adapter not dominating in Japan, though sure enough, it's made by Nintendo. Barely 200k of the 400k available were sold.

I'm shocked you even believe Xenosaga would be an oversight like you're saying, driving sales. Hogwash. If this was true, the entire populace (both Japan and abroad) would've bought Eternal Darkness because it was by Nintendo (your first invalid point of name brand), and it was widely percieved to be a Resident Evil clone (your off-sight point here).

Needless to say, you asked whether or not the Xbox was failing because of bias, and I said no. You asked for a better reason, and I said game sales.

Now considering there's different tastes for games between US and Japan, yet certain games sell well regardless, your point is invalid (not that you could prove that opinion anyways). But, if Xbox had games that sold well on it (say, more of the DOA/Clock Tower stuff) would it still be failing, even though it would be dominating the software charts?

And before you use your "well it would've sold better on PS2 or GCN", the only console DOA sold exceptionally was on the DC. The game did horribly in the arcades in japan (and stateside) thus it's lack of selling power compared to Virtua Fighter and the like as a franchise.

Put VF on Xbox, and it's an instant contender. And before you say again "well it'll sell better on PS2 still", wait until a game comes out on Xbox first, bombs, and then sells millions on PS2. I haven't seen this happen yet, though it would surely prove your bias theory correct.

As I said before- there is no debate. No console will sell well without software of some kind, and that includes PS2.

-Official Ninja of [coming soon]...

It's Dave/Fox all over gain, just at a different forum and with Justin replacing Dave, wow o wow, how you folks write so much...