Well, I don't think there is such a thing as an unbiase "opinion" then it wouldn't be opinion, it would be fact.


EGM may seem to be the fairest but that doesn't make it unbiase. And there are several high scoring games that I don't like and several low scoring ones that I do love. So a review is only good for those who need guidance or confirmation.

If you talk like that pengiun, you basically saying that there is no way to tell if a game is good or not. While sure, everything is based on opinoin, but if a game gets good reviews from all the major magazines, websites, ect., dont you think is a safe bet that thats a well-made, quality title? Oh wait, thats just opinoin again. If we ignore the reviews, who's to say superman64 really sucked?

Yeah, I actually enjoyed Superman 64 for a while. True fact. I used to play it then go watch Superman on Kids WB. Then come back and play it. And my friend and I used to hide the car in practice mode and let the other find it. It kept us occupied for a very long time. =o

Ok... Justin's explination on how worrying too much about profit hurts games:

First of all look at Gaamecube's design... you can not tell me that them holdng back didn't have anything to do with thier monney grubbing ways.

1) Gamecube doesn't feature a DVD player.... why? Because they saw how bad sony faird with a DVD player at first in Japan... profit first, system quality later.

2) Gamecube's best source of memory at launch was 500kb... do you really want me to go into this again. Simply put, if you remember, it hurt sports games back then, and it still hurts them now. Plus Nintendo sold it for an extremely rip off price of $14.99 in the face of competition who sold thiers for $34.99 with 16x the memory.

3) The disks... Ok, maybe it doesn't hurt games, or does it? Have you seen a nice long RPG come out for GCN yet? I haven't. Nintendo made these disks the prevent piracy, and in turn gave the disks much less memory. Don't give me that stupid "1.5GB is plenty" arguement, because it may be plenty for the games that are out now, but it's not as much as the competition. Plus there allready games on Ps2 that wouldn't be able to fit on those disks, more like 2-3 of them... Gran Turismo and every RPG for example.

these are just a few of many examples where Nintendo sacrificed quality for $$$... even selling Rare could be put on this list.

Yep, now that they know thier role, ditched GCN sports, and slowed down development and game releases I'm sure they will make it work. But will they ever be a highly successful third party? Put it like this, they need to slow WAY down before they start gaining respect again.

They are a good developer, capible of big things... but reasleasing too many games is killing them. They need to slow down and make some true killer apps (I'm talkin games that get in the high 9's) then they can work with momentum from that and get faster and faster.

If they went 2nd party would it be as important for them to make a profit? Would the sacrifices they make all the time to make profit be cured if they became a second party? If Nintendo was just sitting there, worrying 100% about games... and not how well thier console will fair in q4 of 2003... and not about what big name games they need to FORCE out in order to pull a profit... do you think thier game quality would go up or down?

I look at games like Luigi's mansion, and I think to myself about how much that game could have really been if Nintendo spent 2 years instead of the one year they took to develop it.

Well, that's why I have repeated over and over that I would like them to become a second party, not a third party because "I think going third party could kill any developer"

Nintendo fans (at least the ones in this forum) are loyal enough to follow Nintendo into whichever connection they may have made. Hell, you would be shocked at how many people are buying Xboxes now that one of thier Nintendo favorites is coming out for the system.

If Nintendo went third party, that would be a servere problem, then, just like you said, they split up franchises. If they stick to one other sytem, I'm sure that system would be in my house and your house come 2006 :p

Xbox has 10 Buttons:
A
B
X
Y
Black
White
L
R
L2
R2
(the last two are pressing the sticks)

GCN has:
A
B
X
Y
L
R
Z

As far as animal Crossing, it could serve as a problem, but as long as you keep your system plugged in you keep the time going, if you unplug the sytem it's your own damn fault that you have to reset the clock in thast game :)

If it doesn, I'm shocked. Nintendo wouldn't spend the extra $$$ to put that in there system... and you can quote me on this when they release the specs.

Also, you talk about Animal crossing... imaging if That game was on an 8MB card or a limitless hard drive. The city could be ten times as big, there could be WAY more crap saved. Like events and stuff, and more customization. You could make a limitless number of those patterns with better graphics.

:rolleyes:

Is it? I would be willing to put money of the fact that more Ps2 owners have GBAs than GCN owners. Plus, if there were no Nintendo system, like I said before, Nintendo fans would flock to the Nintendo brand... if it were on Ps2, or Xbox, it would sell to all the guys who would have bought it for cube, and all the guys who couldn't buy it because they don't have a cube.

Well, I just use common sense... I'll make a poll (well, maybe not a poll because of the situation nowadays) to prove my point.

Dreamcast was out allready too, before Ps2 came, and DC had a pretty strong backing, online at least. But when it's preformance got ripped apart everybody ditched it.

Ps2's preformance has yet to be simply killed off. That's why it stays. You can't tell me that GBA is the most advanced handheld technology in the world. GBA has a LOT of room to be killed visually.

If Luigi's mansion is the best selling launch game of all time, I'm sure they knew they could make a few bucks with Animal crossing. They spent little to nothing to make it, so there is no way to lose. Kinda like Sega with Sonic mega collection.



and that's about it... in the end you kinda disagreed then agreed :p

soo... in conclusion :rolleyes: ;)

Has it been done before fully free roaming on a home console before? I thought innovation is breaking new ground... and in the game console industry this is definently new. Even a strong online community like Xbox live is breaking new ground.

I didn't like Metroid Prime, and that's the first time a review led me wrong. So now I have grown to have a new disrespect for reviews. (plus I look at Animal crossing's scores some places and it pisses me off because I like that game).

you didn't like metroid prime... DIE DIE DIE!!!!!!!!!

Penguin's advice on using spell check....

Well, I don't mind the GCN design. As my teacher told us KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)

Well, I highly doubt that the DVD decision was based on the PS2' sales, I mean the Ps2 launched in March of 2000 and the GCN was revealed in August, that would give them like 5 months? Maybe, you know more than I do, but I don't think it is, I think it was more Nintendo's decision to avoid piracy.

I know we've been through the memory card debate time and time again, and it all depends on the type of gamer you are. I mean I can only imagine how it hurts sports fans, but I've never had a problem with the 59 and I had a lot of games on them, and the 251 is about half full with 21 games now. But I do agree for such a small memory card, it was rather expensive.

Well, Skies of Arcadia Legends is a nice long RPG, I mean it may be a port of a DC game, but it wasn't that large of a game on the Dc, and the fact that GCN doesn't have many RPGs make it hard to judge failry. Maybe, there are no RPGs because they won't sell on the Cube or the size of the disc, who is to know?

I will agree there are several games on Ps2/Xbox that wouldn't fit on one Cube disc, and people say that would hurt Nintendo in the long run, I really can't tell if it has.

I don't know if they sacrificed "quality" as they did shortchanging, I mean the disc, memory cards and whatever are of good quality, but it was shortchanging consumers.

I think Sega will always be a respected developer, they may not be trusted by everyone but still. As for slowing down game development, I guess it would be wise for Sega to slow down the rate of releasing games and concern themselves with getting out high quality games that will sell better.

I agree with you on that point, but I just put off 2001 and 2002 as testing years for Sega, I mean they were just going 3rd party and they don't know what sells where.

I don't think Nintendo make many sacrifices for a profit. I mean look at the constant delays and the secretive nature.

In a way having Nintendo worry about how they will do in q4 2003 would help gamers, I mean it means Nintendo has to get a fire under their ass to recent a game that might actually sell instead of delaying it forever.

Well, I really don't know if the extra time would have helped Luigi's Mansion, the fact is Luigi's Mansion was a very limited concept no matter how much time they poured into it, I don't see it going very far.

But who's to say Nintendo as a 2nd party wouldn't be forced to a schedule or a tighter budget. I mean as their own developer they have any freedom they want.

And if Nintendo goes second party, which company do you think they should go to? I mean if Nintendo goes to Sony or Microsoft, I could see folks sharing some of the same issues with Nintendo that they do now.

Just because Nintendo fans are loyal to the Big N now, doens't mean they will be in the future. Some may leave Nintendo's camp because they felt that they sold out, others may have some type of grudge against the company that buys out Nintendo for forcing them out of the industry and so many other stuff could be an "N-Factor"

Well, I don't know how much gaming I will be doing in 2006 as people grow out of stuff, but I guess it's understandable. Technically, if Nintendo does go 3rd party, I don't think it will happen any time soon.

Ok ok, I got the point even after we went over this on AIM yesterday.

Well, what if you don't plug out the system? Say, someone else moves it or you got to move or something else like that? It shouldn't be a force to keep a system plugged in all the time.

There you have been quoted.

I don't see how exactly the Memory Card factors into the game. I mean it worked on the n64 and it worked on GCn with no issue. Why would you want a much bigger city? I mean I know you are talking theorically, but imagine running around a much larger town with those damn errands, I think it would be more of a nuance than anything special.

I don't know what other events you are referring to, I was pretty sure the events were on the disc and not the memory card?

I've wanred you twice now....

Well, I would also assume that more Ps2 owners have GBA than GCN owners, I mean there is a much larger number of folks with Ps2, you do the math.

Do you have common sense?

Well, I think DC suffered from a lot of stuff that isn't really in Nintendo's issues. I mean they had no support whatsoever from EA (which is the world's largest 3rd party) even if they are dropping GCN support, they are still supporting it. Not to mention, Sega was perceived as being weak going in and well the system wasn't the hottest seller.

the GB was killed off visually by other handhelds. The GBC was as well. The GB still remains the strongest brand on the handheld side. just because it can be killed visually doens't mean folks will buy it.

Like I said the game was released to fill the lineup, I'm pretty sure Nintendo knew they would make a profit on the game and it proved to be an interesting game.

Sonic Mega Collection was just a cheap way to gain something from Sega. I mean it didn't improve the Cube's line-up any during the end of the year, but it was a quick buck for Sega.

Another difference between AC and SMC, AC was never released in the US, but most if not all of those games on SMC were and a long time ago at that.

Well, I'm just here for the debate, I'm not saying everything I say is my opinion, but it makes it more interesting doesn't it?

Crash who is that weird kid in your avatar?

Well, SuperMan 64 generally is considered a bad game, but some people may find some fun in it. I mean I had one friend who graduated last year, who actually loved the game and who am I or anyone else to tell him he shouldn't like it?

I mean there are some high scoring games I don't like at all then some low scoring ones I love, like Mystic Heroes.

Reviews/Previews and whatever else magainzes and sites put out should help make a decision, they shouldn't be the reason to buy a game.

Holy crap, that quote button is pointy! You could poke an eye out with that thing!

I wanna poke my own damn eyes out after reading all this bickering back and forth :-o

Who cares about you... we are talking about the general plublic.

There is a DVD player Cube out right now... at first Nintendo was going to launch it at the same time as the normal Gamecube in both regions, and decided to back down. Why?

Well, if it's piracy that's just Nintendo's greed. Psx did just fine, and it was pirated more than anything.

Yes, it is a complete rip off... you can save about 10 games (of a normal game) and it's full. As for sports games, well, you might as well buy one card for every sport game you get.

Well, SOA doesn't feature Cube style graphics, or FF style FMVs... so of course it would fit.

But let's talk about a developer that supports the Cube named Square... they would never put a port of FFX on GCN because of the disk limitations, period. Of course there is no way to know... all we know are the facts, and a fact is that there isn't much support from games that take high disk space.

I don't really know how to reply to this... you are contradicting yourself.

thanks for agreeing, yet again. Right now Sega is respected, but imo they are losing respect, not gaining it.

You mean like when they wouldn't show anything from Rare because they were about to sell them? I'm talking about a general release with the Nintendo brand on it. Hell, even third party games seemed rushed. before fall 2002 there wasn't anything from Nintendo that I wouldn't consider rushed... hell, even games that fall (like Animal Crossing and Mario Party 4) seemed rushed and released because nintendo knew they would sell.

Well, of course they should be worried... but they shouldn't just go into Shiggy's book of whacky ideas, put a nintendo franchise name on it, and release it ASAP. As a second party they could release two high quality Zelda games back-to-back in years much like Rockstar got out GTA3, and GTAVC so quick.

Nintendo play's on thier fans ignorance... If Nintendo doesn't have to go the extra mile to bring quality, they won't. That's why Nintendo loyalists head counts are going down.

As a developer you have the freedom to spend as much time as you want on a game, and you don't have to worry about how a system does at launch, or how it fairs with the competition. You just worry about games. If Nintendo had this freedom it would be better for them imo.

I say Microsoft, because Sony doesn't need anymore help. If Nintendo were to be with Sony, Ps2 would probably trump Xbox (worse than it allready is) and the speed of new technology would slow way down.

Look at the handheld market... Technology there is WAY behind what it could be. Why? Because there is only one competitor who basically owns the market. I bet if Nintendo wanted to.... and if there were real competition on the horizon... they could release GBA at a super cheap price just to destroy the competition before if even gets a chance.

Just because you saw the sun yesterday, it doesn't mean you will see it tomorrow... but common sense tells you that chances are at will come again.

Give me a break.

You are joking right? If you have been a hardcore gamer this long, I'm sure the urge will continue for the rest of your life. I have plenty of examples in this forum alone. Hell, when you start getting a $4,000 paycheck every month, we'll see what you grow out of.

Do you need me to explain it again? Sheesh... some people never listen ;)

You wouldn't be forced to... you just know unpluging it has a consequence. If sombody else moves it, get mad at them. It's just like an alarm clock.

Well, use more ideas... like have a bike so you can move faster. Bigger town means more possibilities.

Err, I'm talking about the billboard... that's on the card, not the game.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I wasn't talking about the fact that there are more Ps2 owners than Cube owners... just the simple fact that there are more GBA owners than Cube owners.

So you are saying Sony would be considerd weak going into the handheld market? Please, explain.

I'm not talking about the GB or GBC... neither of them had REAL competition. I'm talking about Sony here. The number one company in the game industry going up against Nintendo... the soon to be number 3 console in the gaming industry.

You act as if they are pushovers like Sega

A port is a port... Think about Shenmue 2. How many damn sega fanboys got on the game's case because it's a port of a DC game that was never released in america. But when Nintendo get's the same thing (even worse because it's ported from a weaker console) it's acceptable somehow now?

you must like to type, because at this rate we got a LOT more typing to do.

I didn't read all of this, and I'm not about to, but I will throw my $0.02 for those who are reading the whole thing.

It doesn't MATTER if nintendo is outsold 10,000 to 1 by sony AND ms, so long as they make money, they'll stay in the game, it's that simple. Going 3rd party might be the best thing to happen to the company, but it will never happen. Nintendo is far to arrogant to let it happen. If they WERE to be bought out the only real players in that game are MS and EA anyway and nintendo is also far to racist to let themselves be bought out by an American company (deny it if you will, but you know it's true.)

Nintendo makes enough money with the gameboy to put out another console even if the cube ends up being a huge failure. They'd be stupid enough to do it too.

That's the one thing you have to remember, no matter what else comes inbetween nintendo and the third party, stubborness will always be the final determining factor. They're simply not smart enough to do what's best for them.