Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

You know what I think is a bit weird? America sent troops into Iraq because they thought they "might have weapons" but North Korea announced that they had nukes and America isn't fighting any war there. The people of North Korea are suffering and being oppressed too.

*No insult to Americans intended in paragraph below*

If your government is so noble, why aren't they helping North Korea? Why was Iraq so important when there was only a possibility of weapons of mass destruction? Now I don't know for sure if the war in Iraq was about oil but this makes it seem that way. If North Korea had oil would there be a war there?

The war against North Korea I'm sure would be a U.N. sanctioned war. That means it wouldn't just be America in there. Everyone would get involved. Especcialy Canada.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

While I can see where you're coming from, I think it's probably a bit different when you know somebody's already got nukes pointed at your balls. I'm not the happy go lucky blind patriot fanboy that thinks his government is so great and noble. So I don't really think there's any reason to argue with you.

I guess, for me, I think that the real issue is an immature family vengance issue. Bush's daddy couldn't get Saddam, so his son's going to do it for him. Just because he's got the power. Which is also why Bin Laden has (seemingly) been put on the back burner. I have a feeling that'll earn some flames as well. But I suppose that's unavoidable.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Well when you post ideas that are that stupid, you will get flamed. These theories of "blood for oil", "a war for daddy", etc. are just that: STUPID. S-T-U and a P-I-D. And thats MY opinion. Anbd for the record, I'm not flaming you. I'm calling two of your ideas idiotic, not yourself. There's a difference. You are obviously not a stupid person.

You are free to have your own opinion, but if you want it to be respected try putting a little more thought and research into it before getting diarhea of the mouth. There are plenty of reasons and theories behind the war that are valid and not Nationalistic in the least, but they require research and not just saying the first thing that comes off the top of your head or worse just repeating what some other ignorant schmuck was raving about.

As for Korea, I actually agree with you. The last time I heard they estimated that over 5 million would die in a war with North Korea. Thats a bit more that the relatively few casualties that occurred in the Gulf Wars.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

If they're so stupid, why don't you offer some better ones instead of flaming other peoples? It just seems like if mine are so bad you must have some damn good ones that you're comparing them to.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

The issue at hand is simple. Saddam, a tyrant and ruler for a multitude of decades, has finally been apprehended. The death tole he has created is far greater than the loss of International troops in Iraq. He's an evil man, and served as a menace to humanity.

Iraq is, whether you like it or not, going to be Westernized and turned into an effective trading nation that can help the global modern situation, rather than injure it. The time for change is now.


As for trials for Saddam... I agree whole-heartedly with Strangler that it is a shame to see Saddam living. I'm not sure how the Iraqi populace would react to the "fair trial" of their dictator as opposed to just his simple death (When it comes to mass psychology, I draw a blank). However, I do feel I know the poor resultants of a trial... he will once again get his voice to his people. So long as he lives, a certain morale will stay high for those opposing American Iraqi occupation. On the other hand, however... now that he's in captivity, killing him may possibly turn him into some twisted Tyrannical Martyr.

I can only fear the worst of the situation, but I most definately hope for the best. Yesterday was a wonderful day. There's nothing else to it.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

I agree Rndm. I was just abut to post the martyr thing. That wouldn't be good. He'd only survive about 10 years in prison. I think he should just rot in a jail cell for the rest of his life.


Strangler, if you want people to look at your side of the argument you should stop being so rude. You can't call someone else's idea stupid because you don't agree with it. I think some of the things you have said are stupid but you don't see me calling you or your ideas stupid. It's not fair to force your ideas on everyone and call other people's ideas stupid. That makes you seem very ignorant. Whether you are or not, i don't know. But I do know that you can't just thrust your ideas out there and act like they were written in the Bible or something. Putting people down isn't the proper way to get your point across.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction. Saddam used them against his own people. It's not a question of whether or not Saddam had them. It's a question of where they are. I would agree with you in that we should also go after North Korea, but that would result in huge casualties that the public would not support. And you can only go after so many tyrants at a time. You can help some people sometimes, but you can't help all the people all the time (altered Bob Marley quote)

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

I stand behind everythign the strangler said here, I know I'm a little late but I was dealing with things in my own life atm.. Being that I'm in the army and have had friends killed in combat, I don't think those who were against fighting and dying beside us should get jack.. Thats all :)
(edit)
Dyflon I am allowed to be rude because I've made no point whatsoever so "You are the weakest link goodbye!"

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

If I could help rebuild Iraq, it wouldn't be for personal gains. I think a lot of Canadians who want to lend a helping hand are more concerned about the people than getting anything..

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

As well do a lot of the American people; they either want to legitimately help out the Iraquis or just stay out of it. You seem to think that what the American politicans want is what the people want while what the Canadian people want is what the politicians want.

There may very well be a lot of Canadian people who sincerely want to help Iraq, but up top, its all money. Same here down south.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

But it's not people who will do the majority of the "helping" it will be corporations. And corporations want money, that's how they stay in business. If the world were perfect everyone would lend a helping hand, but it's not. You have some points Dylflon, but most of them are extremely general and aren't really amounting to anything.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

I just got an e-mail from my dad. His company was not the one that captured Sadaam and he won't be home for another 9 months. Here's a pic of his set up, not too bad huh?

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

I'm sorry that your dad won't be home for the holidays JS.

I think most of the soldiers should go home. They're just getting killed out there by angry civilians. It's time to let the soldiers return to their families.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Ah yes... there's a something that I forgot to make a point of in my previous post.

I'm surprised that so many are indifferent about the capture of Saddam, when it could be a great start to getting out of Iraq. I'm sure that's what most of you want. Also, the apprehension of Saddam is what much of the war was fought for. Let's not put to shame what our soldiers are fighting for in the Middle East.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

More good news:

U.S. Snares Guerrilla Leader, 78 Others
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._re_mi_ea/iraq

France, Germany to Help Ease Iraq's Debt
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...m_baker_s_trip

France and Germany are probably doing this because most of their debt to Iraq is made up of weapons they sold to Saddam illegally. But that's not important...

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Mario, I have posted reason after reason after reason why I think this war happened in past threads. I'm not going to go re-research what you should have looked up yourself a long time ago before forming your simplistic theories, but I'll name a few off the top of my head:

1) 1.5 million Iraqi's dead by Saddam's hand.
2) 17 UN resolutions over 12 years condemning Iraq, while they did nothing to comply and the UN waffled as members of the Security Commission standed against conflict because they were owed BILLIONS by Saddam's regime.
3) 1,000 tons of chemical and biological weapons found in 1998 that are not accounted for.
4) Newly found proof that Saddam was tied to terrorism and trained those that were involved in 9/11 attack and made plans to ship weapons to Syria (see Daily Telegraph article that *shock* recieved little to no press from the US media)

But those are just my theories on why the war started and have nothing to do with intrenational law or God forbid, the FACTS. :rolleyes:

Dyflon, I'm sorry if I come off rude, but I am sick and tired of people spouting off about things they know nothing about when the result of those opinions could cost thousands or even millions of lives if terrorists and despots like Saddam are allowed to do whatever they please. Ignorance is just annoying by itself, but when that ignorance can do so much damage it becomes sinful and abhorrent.

But thats just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

The major theme of argument I’m going to use here is, “why now”.

1) 1.5 million Iraqi’s dead? Where did you get this number? I’m not discrediting you, but the highest I could find from an official government source (or any) was here: http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/crimes/
It clearly states 340,000; which is definitely a huge number. But that was from 1980-1988. Not anytime recently. There’s no arguing that this guy needed to be nailed, but why all of the sudden?

2) That’s absolutely true. But how has that changed anything recently? It hasn’t.

3) There’s a lot more than 1,000 tons missing (http://armedservices.house.gov/press.../IraqiWMDs.pdf). But again, it’s been a while. I understand that we needed to go after this guy, but what was the urgency? Osama Bin Laden attacked us much more recently, and he suddenly took a back-seat to Saddam.

4) I’ve actually already reviewed that article, and it’s a great find. But we didn’t find this memo 9 months ago. We found it now. If we had found it 9 months ago, this would be a damn valid reason for having dropped (or shifted) the matter at hand (Bin Laden). But we didn’t, and it’s not.

Who are you to judge what I know? You know what I hate? People who think they know what’s best for everybody else; people who shove their beliefs down other people’s throats. Ignorance is a sin, yes. It is up to us to educate ourselves, but beyond that there’s so much more. Just because you know what is going on doesn’t make your plan of action right. There are so many different ways to deal with every situation. That’s why we have a democracy. Not a dictatorship. Saddam was a dictator; what are you?

Look, it's obvious that we aren't going to agree on this topic. So let's just agree to disagree. Enough with the debating.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Go Bush! :D

:sneaky:

All I know is, they should kill Saddam now... giving him a fair trial shows how weak the United States is. Too many lives were lost directly and indirectly because of this man. I wish I would have been the one to find him, he would have got a bullet in both knee caps before and pissed on before he would walk out of the room alive. This guy deserves to be in pain more than any person alive that I know.

US is supposed to be a powerhouse, but we act like little bitches. We should let those countries know that if they are gonna "F" with us they are going to be wiped off the face of the planet with no mercy whatsoever.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

I very strongly disagree with that. During wartime, you do whatever you have to do to destroy the enemy. Using A-Bombs, Nukes, whatever it takes, you give it to them hard and fast and show them that no one F*cks with you.

But if you capture the main guy and have him in custody, you dont just kill him in cold blood. Dont get me wrong, Im not standing up for Saddam, I just think that taking him back to Iraq and giving him a fair trial is a good idea. It will be a big step in the creation of a democratic country in Iraq.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

So, by sinning, you are creating good?

I thought you were a harcore Christian man....

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

I guess I myself don't think it's right to execute Saddam. I've never agreed with the death sentence.

But even though I disagree with BJW, I also disagree with you to a degree. I've always believed that if you are a "Christian", you don't judge other "Christians" as to how "Christian" they are. If they do or believe something you think is morally wrong, then say so. But I would just say that it's really not for anybody to tell anybody else they're sinning or un-Christian. Only one person can decide that.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Vamp... it would help the democracy over there, that's a good point, but I believe keeping him alive can only hurt. As long as he is alive, his true followers will always be trying to free him and they will always have a reason to fight. Also, what jail would they be putting him in? A US one or Iraq one? By making an example of him they are just making him bigger than what he is, a hero in a way. (I forgot the word for it)

Think about it, if Jesus Christ just got his head chopped off like he was a normal man instead of being nailed to the cross do you think his story would have had just as big of an effect on people?

All US is doing by giving him a trail over there is focing his own people to betray him... what happens if the jury decides that he shouldn't go to jail? US kills him... the only way he lives is in prison. I don't see the point. US can make then think it's there own decision, but the truth is it isn't. If Saddam could, he would kill each and every one of us, and god forbid he get ahold of the president, do you think Bush would live 30 seconds under that man's watch? Hell no. And pics of Bush's dead body would be all over the news in Iraq (just like he had his own people), so why on earth should we let Saddam live?

and Joeiss, from what I know, war isn't a sin, he should have been killed on the battlefield just like all the others who died because of him.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Yaaay... religious remarks.

I'll try responding to this from a few viewpoints.


Christian:
Jesus is a very, very important part of our religion. It matters not how he died, but the fact that he did die for mankind's sake. He was the ultimate martyr.

Skeptic:
What makes you sure he was nailed to a cross? The bible wasn't written by the hand of God, but rather by humans. Humans definately listen to the will of God, but as you can see by the actions of some "Christians", they do not yield to the word of God entirely. There could've been some glorifying of Jesus' death.

Non-Christian:
How would that be possible? Man created Jesus as the ultimate martyr and role model. He could not "sin"... he was a flawless quasi-human. When designing Jesus, man made sure he could create the biggest impact possible. Fiction is created a way for a reason. Perhaps this should not be discussed in this forum.

Christian "Scientist" (aka: uncertain but wishes for "accuracy"):
There's a fairly good chance that being hung on a cross wasn't as obscure as you imagine at the time. Mayhaps regular "thieves" would be nailed to a cross... in fact, weren't there others with him nailed to a cross? Beheading, I imagine, wasn't a very common method of execution at the time.

Choose your pick =¬Þ, I really don't care which one you imagine I'd say. Based on my mood, I could've straight out said any of them and "meant" it.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Let's try not to turn this into a religious debate. We've had too much of those in the past few months. Besides, its off topic anyway.

Anyway...

About in a war you have to use nukes and A-bombs, etc. to show the other country that they shouldn't "F" with us is just plain wrong. All that is is bullying only to an extent where millions of people would be killed.

War is not always just countries at each other's throats wanting to wipe each other out. This war in particular was not a war with Iraq as a whole but with Saddam's regime. Nuking the place not only would have made the war much larger than it would have to be (it would almost certainly draw other countries into the mix) but it would have also killed countless numbers of the people we were trying to save.

Thinking that war is just a school yard fight where the sole goal is to hurt the other guy as much as possible in any way possible is naive. Its people thinking things like that that will lead to nuclear war and holocaust.


*shrugs and walks away*

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Ginkasa...Ginkasa....

Im not getting into this argument again, either. I had it a while back in the World Civ. forum. But it really gets under my skin...people who believe dropping the bombs in WWII was a bad idea, and think that it was "immoral" and "monstourous" or "unethical". It saved alot of peoples lives...and We would do it again if we had too.

In todays age, though, we dont go around droping Nukes and A-bombs on everyone that challenges us for a few reasons...:

1. In todays age, most countries have Nukes, unlike when the first A-bomb was dropped. So if we nuked some place right now, we would be hit with some pretty bad retaliation. Becuase they could drop a Nuke right back on us.

2. We wanted to keep Iraq on the map. We had interest to rebuild it. You dont go around dropping nukes in order to kill one man. (Saddam)

I never said that we should have dropped a Nuke on Iraq...that really would have been stupid. What I was trying to say is that if your in an all out war with an entire nation of enemies that will not give up, (Such as the Japs in WWII), then using the most brutal force possible is neccessary.

I was not saying you drop bombs on a country who metaphorically "flips you off."...

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

I agree with all four of those reactions to some extent... but the fact is if others were killed on the cross the evidence was supressed, and apparently Jesus was the only one to get the nails put through his palms and the big nail through both of his legs.... if the others did, like I said before, evidence was held back ;)

(I would read and try to find out... but I'm not going to put that much effort into this post ;))

Oh, and thanks for finding the word for me "martyr"

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Ya, dropping the A-Bomb in WWII was for the good. The huge sea/land battle in Japan would have left millions upon millions dead. Invading Japan would have been like D-Day multiplied by 27.45.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

We definately needed to do something in Japan, but dropping that bomb was a bad idea in my opinion.

In Hiroshima, there were 120,000 casualties. 60,000 of which were deaths. That was out of a population of slightly over 200,000. It was mass murder. It wasn't to get to a specific target, it was just to flex some muscle and get some revenge. We could have done that without killing so many innocents.

That was a good find ZeroCooler. I particularly liked the point this one brought up.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

define "innocent" in a war situation... The only innocent I know are non-supporters of the war... and children. But the powerful contries are the only ones that seem to fight fair anyway.

As fr the Bush thing, remember, the media shows us what they want us to see, and he was showing Osama what he wanted him to see. We won't ever know if he's telling the truth about not worrting about Osama or not.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Finally you show more than paper thin theories. You have expressed in detail your views, and I applaud ytou for that. Thats all I ever asked for to begin with. As you point out, I still don't agree with your reasoning, but mainly thats because your argument centers around the theory that because we didn't go into Baghdad in 1975 to remove him, there are no good reasons why we should go in and remove Saddam now.

You ask: "Why now?"

I ask: "If not now... when?"

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

We should not have even had to go in and take him out of power this time, the first Bush should've done it. Every American that is killed over there now is on Bush senior's hands.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Easy to say that now, isn't it?

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Hind-Sight is 20/20.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

It's exactly 1 year ago.

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Whoa! They captured Sadaam? I can't believe it!!! This is unbelievable!

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

OMG, the war will end very soon now.

Wait...nevermind...

Re: Sadaam Captured Alive
 

Can't believe it's been a year.