Re: Remembrance Day.
 

If we wouldn't have bombed Japan a lot more people would have died. I would rather not go into details... just believe me. :)

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

The bombing had to happen, I just don't agree with two bombs being dropped. One bomb would have been sufficient enough.

They blew one bomb up in the air and one one the ground. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just 'tests'. Basically they were guinea pigs.



Here's a question, could you have pressed the button to drop those bombs? If I was the pilot, I don't think I could.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

The US asked Japan to surrender after the first bomb was dropped. Japan refused. They refused after the single most destructive weapon known to mankind was detonated on their populace.

The Japanese were, and still are to a large extent, a samurai culture. Quite literally it is in their nature to die before being shamed. We need to look on other cultures through their ideals, and not ours. I find this happening a lot lately, especially in discussions about the Middle East.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Another city had to be destroyed though? Couldn't the US just **** up a large japanese island or Japan's largest military base(s)?

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Yes. We had to go for the city. Dont you get it? War isnt about honor or salvation, we did what we had to do. We broke their back and showed them that we would do whatever we had to to win that war. We showed them that the mighty U.S.A would not take any crap. We dropped one bomb, and the Japanese did not surrender because they did not think we had been able to produce more than one bomb.

So they asked us to drop another. They were that confident. And what did we do? Well, Harry gave them Hell.

People will say that it wasnt something to be proud of, but can you look at me and say that any act commited in a war is something to be proud of? We did what needed to be done, and what did it get us? Victory.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

It may have gotten us victory, but it was on the horizon already. We didn't need to drop those bombs. Victory in Japan was almost ours and instead we drop bombs and kill around 150,000. Not to mention all of those who died from radiation later, or all the problems the radiation caused for the next 45 years. Nuclear weapons should never be used. How horrid.

Oh and the pilot who flew and dropped the bombs went crazy a few weeks after. You would too.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

i'm not completelu sure about this, but i think that there was no communication with the japanese between the two bombings..... ie they dropped them within hours of eachother... in other words, I don't think the US dropped the second because the Japanese didn't believe them, but rather that it was the plan from the start.....


**before anyone -reps me for lying just remember...i *think* thats what happened....i don't have time right now to check the records

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

The second bomb was dropped three days later, the Japanese knew what the bomb could do, and even after Hiroshima they would not surrender because they were so stubborn.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

wow.....some retard -repped me for my post even though i said i wasn't sure

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

We never really knew how strong the nuclear weapons were. It was still the 40's and we didn't know the effect of the bombs.

Yes we had to bomb Japan. Those Japanese have so much nationalism in their blood, they wouldn't give up. Hell, even after the first bomb they still refused to give up. It was a miracle Japan gave up after the second bomb, otherwise we would've been in war with them for even longer, considering we didn't have anymore Nuclear weapons at the time.

Horrid, I agree. Sometimes Drastic Actions are required to end drastic times.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

A bomb was tested before the Hiroshima bomb was dropped... so they did know how destructive they were. Just though I'd point that out.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

yes, it was tested, and America well knew it's capabilities, weapons are rarely used during war to be tested

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

I knew that, but they didn't know what side effects it gave to people rather than blowing them to bits.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Maybe not, but it got us a victory, and thats all that matters.

Thats war. You have casualities, thats what its all about. And I support nuclear weapons, as long as we're the ones using them. And I think we went to easy on the Japanese, we should have went for Tokyo. They got off lucky, we could have done a lot more.

When your in a war, or in any fight for that matter, you dont slap the other guy and walk away. You beat his freaking brains out until he's bleeding out of every hole in his body and he doesnt have enough strength left to blink. Thats how you win and keep a victory. If you just slap them until they're down, it will just leave them angry and pissed at you, and they will come back. You have to show the bastards that if they even look at you the wrong way, you'll kill them. That the next time they even imagine attacking you, that you'll make their little archipilago non-existant.

The guy who went crazy...he wasnt a very good soldier. I would go crazy, but Im not claiming to be a soldier, now am I?

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

I think it's fairly clear that the nukes were a retaliation for what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbour. The US probably could have finished the whole thing off with just regular forces, but the nukes did a good job of that, and did so without costing the US military any more lives. Moreover, they acted as sort of saying "This is what happens when you f*ck with us" for the 'States, which is always a nice way of assuring you won't be victim to too much more aggression.

Same with 9-11. As I'm sure you've noticed, the 'States went somewhat buck wild and started attacking everything they could think of that had anything to do with the attacks against them.

The United States is a powerful country and wants the world to know that, and so acts against them (especially on their own soil) are completely untolerated, and it seems they will always be returned with fierce vengeance.

The nuclear bombs in Japan probably weren't completely necessary, but they served their function, put a finite end to the war, and boosted the military standing of the United States in the eyes of the world.

Welcome to politics.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Exactly.

Glad to see you agree with me, because thats exactly what I was saying. We could have won without the bombs, but at a cost of American lives, and it wouldnt have been as final as the bomb was. The bomb put it into very simple terms "anyone in the world that f*cks with us, dies."

It may seem harsh, but thats war, and politics. Thats what we have to do to keep America and her people safe. You have to let them now that if they EVER go against you again, there will be absolutely no mercy.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

It's too bad that the Entente didn't realize that. But nooo... France had to get revenge on Germany. Stupid Versailles. WWII wouldn't have happened (well, in Europe anyway) if they had realized that.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

I assume you're talking about the Paris Peace Conferance held at the end of WWI, in which only 4 men from 4 countries held the fate of the world in their hands...But it wasnt just France, Great Britain also wanted revenge for the massive damage done to their navy by the Germans.

I agree, if it hadnt been for some very bad things that went down at that conference, and because of Versailles, WWII might not have begun.

When WWI ended, Germany was on her knees, and we kicked her again, and again, and again, and again. Im not totally against that, I mean, when you have someone down, beat the hell out of them so that dont get back up and slap you.

I blame two factions for WWII: Woodrow Wilson and the republican congress. When Wilson went to the peace conference, he brought along only democrats to help him. At this time, congress consisted of almost entirely republicans. They resented Wilson for this act, and when he got back and asked them to join the newly crafted "League of Nations", they refused.

I blame Woodrow for taking only democrats (stupid move) and I blame the republican congress for voting so stupidly over a stupid grudge.

If America had been part of the League of Nations at that time, we could possibly have prevented Germany's rise to power in WWII, because no other nation in the League of Nations was strong enough military wise or economic wise, after the losses of WWI. But America was in the "roaring twenties" we had the power to stop germany, but we didnt. Had we been part of the League of Nations, things could have gone down differently.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

How can you say that? Most of these people were drafted. I'm sure he probably wasn't because he was a pilot, but seeing what that did, knowing you caused all that death. Yeah that would make anyone insane. How could you think that someone is a good or bad soldier because they go insane after they killed 70000 people instantly. Instantly! I can't believe some of the things our country would do. It's atrocious.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

I'd have to agree with the Moogle on that point. One man can only have so many balls... :sneaky: Err, that is... you can talk all you want and feel immortal, but when it comes down to it, killing 100K+ civilians will drive you mad. A soldier is not supposed to kill civilians, and any sane human is not supposed to kill anywhere near that number, whether liscenced to do so or not. Millions returned home from wars with nightmares. Are you saying none of them are good soldiers, Vampyr?

Show a little respect, please. I know what honor and duty-bound fearlessness makes a soldier in Animé, samurai teachings, or on paper... but in reality, killing is so much different.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

I applaud the man for having the balls to actually push the button. I could never have done that. Never. I applaud him for that.

But he should know that he did what he had to do, and what was required of him from his country. He was not responcible, whoever gave him the orders were. I take back saying he was a bad soldier, that was a bit to far...a human can only do so much.

Instantly? Are you saying it would have been better to be slowely? Because they had to die. We had to kill them. Its what America had to do to show them that we were the baddest boys on the block and NO ONE f*cks with us. I dont care how atrocious it is. Its war.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

I think you have the completely wrong impression. We didn't drop those bombs on Japan to show them we were the baddest boys on the block, that is ludicrous; I can't believe you actually think that. We dropped those bombs to prevent more deaths, and not just of Americans. War is about surviving.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

No. Its not ludicrous. What you said is slightly ludicrous, because you cancel out your statements. You say war is about surviving, yet you say we didnt drop the bombs to prove something. In order to SURVIVE you HAVE to show the world you will do WHATEVER it takes.

Why did we drop TWO if we werent trying to prove something?! They said we wouldnt dare, but we showed them that we did dare.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

*bangs head on desk*

*considers replying, then considers outcome*

*goes back to watch Packer game*

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

*bangs head on desk*

*realizes it hurt*

*also realizes he's said to much and that no one (except maybe purevil) agree's with him*

*Goes to bed*

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Saying they dropped those nukes solely for an outright good-hearted military strategy is extremely, extremely naive of you. If they had just wanted to bring an end to the war, there were other, less atrocious ways of doing it.

Don't get me wrong -- the nukes did bring a very definite end to the whole conflict, but if an end to the conflict is all they were after, there were certainly other methods of getting there.

The primary function of dropping those bombs was almost certainly to flex United States military muscle. It was to say "Okay, you attacked us at Pearl Harbour, on our own turf, when we wanted nothing to do with it, so now we're going to get you back 100 times as bad." And they did. The absolute devastation those two nuclear warheads brought to Japan was not simply about ending a war. It was about showing what happens when you go after the United States of America. More of a statement than anything.

It's nice to see that you have faith in the true and righteous ways of the US government, but unfortunately, the real world doesn't quite work that way. Governments are not all about good intentions and doing the right thing. The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are clear examples of that.

The nukes were to show what happened to foolish countries who went after the 'States on their own ground, and for over 50 years everyone made good note and didn't do anything quite as bold as what Japan did. Just recently with the terrorist attacks on American soil we saw that over-reaction and flexing of military might yet again. We'll all seen the US go ballastic on everything that they think has anything to do with terrorist activity. Afghanistan was pulverized in retaliation, and you can be sure more than a few of those "stray" missles we all heard about that killed innocent Afghani citizens were slightly on the intentional side. Payback. Simply payback.

You can go on and continue thinking that the US did nothing more than what they absolutely had to do, but that's overly foolish of you. A country that's had innocent citizens killed for seemingly no reason will pretty much always snap back with over-aggression, and vengeful thoughts.

Reality of it is, cruel actions aren't done just for survival, or just to bring an end to conflict. There's very often some kind of underlying revenge tactic at play.

You shove me, I'll calmly deal with you in search of a peaceful, reasonable resolution isn't the way it works.

In truth, you shove me, I'll shove you harder.

Time to wake up and look at things in a slightly more intelligible way.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

LOL.

It's not worth getting into a debate with you PE, and you know that.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

LOL! :rofl:

Thats the comeback people use when they have ABSOLUTLEY NO COMEBACK. I mean, your:

*bangs head on desk* comeback didnt really have me shakin in my boots...

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

*sigh*

I don't want to start a debate with either of you especially on this subject. I have many times and I know where it will eventually end up. But for me not to reply makes it look like I don't care and am ignoring you, which I'm not. You can interpret what I am saying in any way you wish. I really can't say it any differently... think what you will.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

No laughing smiley could possibly accurately depict my emotions right now....

But this is the closest: :rofl:

PureEvil, senseless banter between two sides that are equally correct within a gaming forum can never be called "intelligible", let alone your bass-ackward interperetations.



How 'bout this, not one of you three have a clue as to how people felt in WWII, as none of you were alive during that time period. In this here thread (which is based on Rememberance Day), every honestly well-constructed idea is intelligently invoked. Seriously now PE, you've been raised by action films, Japanese video games, and a Canadian schooling system; I highly doubt that would credit you to all knowledge of the post isolationist, war enthralled United States government's motives.


If I could -rep you twice for that one post, I would. I won't go searching for another post to make up for it, because that's one of few poorly planned posts by you, that I have noticed.

The fact that you feebly and mockingly copied the "banging of the head" in your reply to him entirely removes the validity of that last post. A pithy remark about lack of comeback is not only a waste of board space, but utterly childish.

I'm surprised you didn't simply declare victory over the debate, even though that wouldn't be entirely accurate, as Bond knew better than to continue the static (Therefor there is no true winner). But no, you had to make a post like that.



Well, as the saying goes, in the end... in an internet debate it's a lot like the special olympics. Win or lose, you're still a 'tard. Then again, who am I to speak? But yes... even I have seen enough of this debate.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Check your PM's, random. Im not taking an arguement about stupid things like this onto a public thread called "rememberance day" on the day itself.

On another note...

I hope everyone had a good Veterans Day, and I want to say thanks to all the Veterans in the world. Good show, ol' chaps.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Just wanted to point something out here:

The bombardier of the Enola Gay (the plane that dropped the bomb over Hiroshima) didn't know what kind of bomb he was carrying. All he knew was that he was on a mission to get over Hiroshima and then drop this Little Boy over the city. One of the captains of the plane actually scrawled "My God, what have we done?!" into his journal right after seeing te mushroom cloud. He got quite a shock, but he wasn't really as brave as you made him out to be.

And let's get some dates straight here, shall we?

August 6, 1945 - Little Boy dropped over Hiroshima

August 9, 1945 - Fat Man dropped over Nagasaki

August 14, 1945 - Japan surrenders

Make of all that what you will. Just keep in mind that you weren't there and that you have a hell of a lot more information about everything than President Truman did.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

Hmmm. I didnt know that. Interesting.

But the guy who dropped Fat Man must have known what he was doing, right? So I can applaud one of them, right?

But my argument wasnt really based on the soldier, but I do want to apologize (again) for the comment I made about him not being a good soldier. that was an extremely stupid thing to say, I guess I just got carried away.

Re: Remembrance Day.
 

I rather enjoy debating with Bond... always ends out in a draw.