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BTW, but "lol" in front of your posts does not validate your opinions nor invalidate those who disagree with you. It comes off more as a nervous defense mechanism. |
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And if you really want to go along the lines that humans need to reproduce to exist, they can reproduce as well as straight. If there are only 4 people left, 2 male, 2 female, and they're all gay, they may feel no sexual attraction to the opposite sex, but they can still have sex and reproduce. The gay men could help the lesbian couple have kids. Just need to learn to cooperate with one another. |
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The bible has been edited, yes. I dont think it's been edited to an extent that people have added whatever they thought was bad. The bible is the word of god, not the word of other opinions. Quote:
I'm not saying no against gay marriages in general, just throughtout the church. |
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But churches are independent bodies separate from the government, so they are free to chose whatever they like. The question is whether or not the government should get involved, which they have no right to. Why the government has not gotten involved in whole pedophile priest ordeal, I have no idea. Last time I heard an adult sexually forcing themselves on a minor was against the law. |
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-EDIT- One Winged Angel has a bit more 'personal' experience in this subject than you or me.... To be honest, I am shocked that he didn't take your side full on. |
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Live and let live.
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[quote=The Strangler]And you are basing this on what? Also, the "flaming homos" comment is pulling a LOT of steam out of your argument. I have a friend who is gay, and he didn't start out as a "flaming homo", but he eventually became one through hanging out with gay people after he caame out of the closet. I think this is a result of feeling repressed for 20 some odd years and feeling like something was wrong with him, rather than he just wants to be gay. Considering the amount of prejudice that homosexuals face in America, I don't think anyone would pick that if they had a choice.[quote]
I'm aware of that, but I'm not pointing fingers at your friend. Personally I do know guys who wanted to gay... sorry, that was a little personal on my part. Quote:
Also that was a very disrespectful joke you made. Quote:
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Even though Jesus wanted people to be treated evenly, people don't. That's the kind of society we live in, not everyone listens to his word. Also, there are non-believers who are still treating them unfairly as well, that doesn't pertain to only christians. Quote:
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Ok, so now it looks like we've got two questions being asked here.
1. Are you, personally and individually, biased against homosexuals? 2. Should the government deny marriage rights to homosexuals? Justin seems to be answering only the first question (I haven't seen him say anything about government policy). So he doesn't like gay marriage, and if he were some person able to marry two people together like a priest or mayor of a town or something, he wouldn't do it for homosexuals. All right then. It's a stance I don't agree with, but that's nothing new. And besides that, it's not what I would call a stupid argument because it's a simple personal belief. And to Justin's credit, he hasn't tried to equate homosexuality to pedophilia as some other fundamentalists do. That would have been a really stupid argument, and I'm not sorry for saying so in my previous post. Now, as has been pointed out numerous times before, it's one thing to say you have a particular opinion and another to say that the government should act on that opinion. I've yet to see a convincing argument that gay marriage should not be allowed by the government. You can say that you personally don't accept it. But what reason can you give for the government not to do so? |
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BTW, excellent way of avoiding MY point. If man relays the POINT, then how can we be sure that the point in not fallable? Quote:
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I guess I should state my true purpose in this argument. Religion has been hijacked by those who feel that the Bible is a book of law, and not a book of spirituality. Christianity was never meant to be this way, and the fact that it is is more a result of it being influenced by PAGAN religions that have been incorporated over the years. Before anyone flips out, but think of all the ritual involved in the Catholic church. Ritual is a direct influence from pagan religions. From the time when Christianity first begain to spread thousands of years ago, Christianity was a Religion based on a book of Parables that were meant to be applied to the way of life of the day. Orthodox religions are the closest to this in today's society. The closest being the Russian Orthodox Church. They realize that the stories told in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally. The word of God is intended basically to allow poeple to live to the best of thir ability given their circumstances, not to divide people into sinners and saints. Russian Orthodoxy do not even believe in Hell as we do. They believe that Hell is simply the absence of God. Hell is simply rotting in the ground and the dissipation of the soul. They belive Hell is the lack of being. Modern Christian religions are more exclusive than inclusive and depend on fear to influence people more than love. I believe in God, and I believe in Him because in my heart I love Him. THAT is faith. Believing in God because a book told you to or because its better than the alternative that is Hell, is not. Its hedging your bets. You claim that I know nothing about the Bible. I claim that what good is that knowledge, if all you know is the iterpretation of the Bible that has been fed to you since birth? How can you make a judgement when you walk through life with blinders on? Modern religion is a victim from its own dogma that comes mainly not from the way Christianity begain, but from the outside influences it incorporated over the years to win converts. In fact, whole sections of the Bible have been removed. Ever hear of the Book of Enoch? It was originally in the Old Testament, only to be removed by the Catholic Church as heresy. How can the WORD OF GOD be heresy? Easy, it did not fit with the Catholic Church's own dogma. This is not how it was intended to be. How do I know this? I have had many long conversations with my friend Edward. He is currently working on his discertation to gain his Doctorate of Philosophy and Religion from the Universtity of Pennsylvania. |
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The question that arises from your points Strangler, at least for me, is that do you take Jesus literally?
By the way, has anyone noticed the more you learn about religion in general the less plausible it seems? |
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1) He is the literal son of God. 2) He is the embodiment of God on earth. So in essence, he IS God. 3) He was one of many men claiming to be prophets, just that more people took him seriously and he was never really a religious figure, but more of a misguided individual Personally, I do not know whether Jesus was the savior. I have doubt, and without doubt I cannot proclaim faith in His existence. I have no doubts in the existence of God. To me he is fact. But I also realize that this is only fact to ME. I do not pretend to to be able thrust my beliefs as fact on others. To OWA his beliefs are truth, and I don't pretend to think that any logic can sway him of that because faith defies logic. In that case much of my argument is futile, but I also believe that sharing of information can only serve to enlighten when it comes to religion, as long as it remains civil which I think it has (OK, I was a little prickish, but thats just me :D ) In any case, the story of Jesus is very important to us all. His teachings are as relevant today as they were in his day. Just because I do not becessarily believe in Him, does not mean I do not believe in His teachings or that the archetype of the Christ figure is one that should be ignored. That also does not mean that I follow bllindly through life by those teachings. It is the standard by which the morals of a civilized society are based (but are also shared in many non-Christian beliefs). But these are familial morals, not to be enforced by any government. That is not the government's job. (HOLY CRAP, I'M BACK ON TOPIC!!!) |
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First off, a bit of an introduction to myself : I live in Canada. I lean a bit left on political issues. That should bring up a few Canadian stereotypes, eh? But in my opinion, laws stating that marriage is "a union of a man and a woman" are unfair, and in my personal opinion, against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which states that no one shall be discriminated on for any reason. The way that I would change it would be to simply change the statement to "a union between two persons." Then I would simply say that Churches, family values organisations, and other groups weighing in on this subject are free to choose whether or not to marry a proposed couple. This may be rehashing what has been said in previous posts, but this is what I would do. It's what I believe the Government of Canada is currently considering; and when they implement this it will be one of the few things they've done that I would support. As to the previous marijuana issue: I don't know whether or not I support decriminilization, much less legalisation. But imagine if we taxed it like beer and tobacco. |
Lets everybody stop arguing about whether it's right or not to be gay.
Let's just agree that gay people are no different from you and I and should have equal rights. Anyways: to releive tension I have decided to post this picture. I don't think anyone can be mad when this picture is around. ![]() |
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Strangler,
I did some research on the Book of Enoch and from what I read it sounds like it was originally its own book, a very odd book in that. At least Amazon.com is selling it as an entire book... |
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If you want more info on any other apocryphal writings or pagan beliefs and organizations I highly recommend www.occultresearch.org. Their piece on the Necronomicon is both eye opening and quite frightening. EDIT: Here is an online copy of the Book of Enoch http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/ot/pseudo/enoch.htm |
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I did the following: 1. Showed a picture of a cool car 2. Showed a picture demonstrating Photoshop effects 3. Made a point about arguing over such a controversial issue. |
I think most of the major points have been presented so all i'll say is i'm not against gay marriage and I feel that nobody should not be allowed to be married for being gay. Also on the subject of the book of enoch and it's removal from the bible by the catholic religion, I think you should all read a book called: The Da Vinci Code, it expains alot about the catholic religions removal of certain parts of the bible.
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Your cruel words hit me like spears of hatred.
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And yes, Bond, I too love the syrupy sweet buzz of Mountain Dew. :D |
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If I become a better character can we be allies again?
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If you don't like debating over social and political issues, then DON'T say anything in the forum that is intended for just such discussion. When you do, you sound like a contrarian who contributes nothing to the debate and just likes to read his own posts. |
True story time.
I first encountered gay people when I started High school. There were a few openly gay people around. I never tried to talk to them, it was super scary. I had always been told that gay people were really bad. My parents are super prejudice. So when I started working at McDonald's I had to work with 3 gay people. At first I was a little freaked out. But once I got to know them they were okay. Well two of them, One is a super jerk. Anyway, the point is, they're human beings just like us. And just like us straight people they too can feel love. So why shouldn't they be allowed to get married? Just like straight people they could take they're love to the ultimate point, marriage. I feel bad for some of the devout religious people that are posting in this thread. They don't really know what they are talking about. And as far as gay people being worthless because they can't reproduce, I don't see where that matters? People are always useful no matter if they can reproduce or not. So people make you burgers and some pump your gas, some save your butt from lawsuits, and some help you with your stock options. Gay people are everywhere. I don't think they should have to suffer all this abuse, I don't think they should have to suffer a war-monger like G.Dubya telling them they can't get married. What the heck does he know, that retard can barely read. Now I'm not gay myself, but I wouldn't go as far to say that it's impossible to fall in love with another man. If something like that was to happen, it would happen. I'm not close-minded enough to close so many doors opened to me. I hate Christianity. If any religion is a plague upon humanity, it's christianity and any branches of it. It makes me so angry to think of all the things that christianity has screwed up over the years. Instead of worrying over things like same sex marriages we should worry about all the people who die everyday because of religion and all the stupid things it does to people. How could someone believe in something so unrealistic as god? How could someone take another's life in the name of Allah, or in the name of God? So much hate in this world is caused by religion. |
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If there ever was a peaceful religion it would have to be Buddhism. I'm not such which religion is factually the most violent. I would guess it would be Muslims or Christians. |
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I may not be a Christian, but I have brains enough to recognize that Christianity has done far more good than evil in this world. |
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Take a ****ing bow. yes, I realize the irony in my "bowing down" to him after applauding him for decrying religion |
I'm dismayed to find that there have been no compelling or cogent arguments against gay marriages in this thread. And before any logic-bereft individual accuses me of being homophobic, let me just say that I have no stance on the issue. But as things stand, there are sound reasons for the government to oppose the legalization of gay marriages.
Changing norms in a society invariably presents a predicament. That is, until the norm in question has been determined to be evil or inhumane, there is no sound justification to change it. Why should there be? Many people oppose the right to bear arms. The reason that the second amendment has not been declared unconstitutional, however, is the fact that there has been no clinching evidence that it is somehow evil, inhumane, unconstitutional, or unjust. Gay marriages present a similar question: do we have a justification to change the existing laws (therefore, changing the societal norms) in favor of gay marriage? Well, would that decision not depend on whether being gay is absolutely intrinsic? In other words, what if it's the case that homosexuality is strictly a learned behavior? That, noone is born gay, but are conditioned to be gay through trauma, accidents or etc (I'm not advocating that such is the case with homosexuality; I'm just asking why should the laws be changed if this were the case)? And in which case, the person could be reconditioned to be straight? Societies do not and should not change its norms to cater to those that are deviant to them. It should be the other way around. After all, do we not tell drug addicts that although they are clinically addicted, they should still seek help and become sober (thereby being readmitted to the society's norms)? As far as I've been paying attention, there has been no absolute evidence that there is a "gay gene" or that there is some hereditary condition that forces a person to be homosexual. And until that datum is ascertained, do you not think that we should reserve our judgement intent on changing our laws and norms? Most of you, obviously, do not think so. Since most of you for gay marriages seem to think that "being gay is pretty much hereditary (nice evidence!)" it is the case that homosexuality is intrinsic. Well, show me some data to support that. Last time I checked, not even the human genome project has been able to accomplish this. It's a very, very simple inference. Seriously, just because a lot of people start saying that marrying animals (this has happened already), your family members, inanimate objects or what have you should be legal, does that mean we should change the laws to cater them? I mean, when does it stop? |
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Please expalin how keeping laws in place that treat one group of people differently than another in constitutional and "just". And why do you even care? How does legalizing gay marriage affect you? Why is it even illegal if it does not matter to anyone ecept those that are getting married? |
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And what's with this unconstitutional hoopla? Your views on the 14th Amendment is somewhat erroneous to your standards. Simply stated, the 14th Amendment does not force the government to stop categorizing people by stereotypes. Why do we give disabled people special previliges then? Why, sadists love to torture people to attain sexual stimulation. Does that mean we let it go since well, sadists are just sadists and they're only people? Quote:
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The problem with your argument is that you think its the government's responsibilty to legislate morals. Its not. Its the job of the family and religious affiliation. To legislate morals is the same as legislating religion as that is where morals come from. Are there existing laws that are based very much on religious morals? Yes. There is also a law in a town in MD that no monsters are allowed in the city borders and another in MA that states that all women drivers are to have their husbands in front of the car waving a flag to warn other drivers and pedestrians. Just because the law is on the books doesn't mean its logical or even enforced.
Also, this is not about repealing laws, as right now its a state issue. This is about creating NEW FEDERAL laws that prohibit homosexual marriage. So no laws are being repealed, they are being created to deny rights and legislate morals that should be kept relative to religion and personal belief. And by the way, if brothers and sisters want to get married... more power to them. Incest between two people has nothing to do with me or anyone else besides them. After all, what right do we have to tell two grown people whats right or wrong if all they do affects only them? Thats for God and themselves to sort out. |
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Having a brother and sister become married is medically dangerous to their offspring though.
I think that's an entirely different issue. |
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Also, deciding as a society the right of homosexuals to marry when we don't know for sure that it is intrinsic does not seem to be a strictly personal moral issue. Whether you like it or not, people's marriages have effects on other people. Case in point: divorces that ruin children, creating problems for the society. This is a socially-relevant issue. Therefore, the society must have a say. Quote:
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It's like the argument with drug users. Right, they are only hurting themselves. Uh-huh. Suppose the addict OD's and requires medical attention but does not have the money to do so b/c he's spent it all on drugs. Who do you think will pay for his care? We, as a society, cannot look past him and merely say, "oh, it's all his fault so let him die." This sort of assertion that the actions we take only affect ourselves is simply ludicrous. Unless you're living under a rock, everything that you do will have an affect on other people. This is exactly why the government has limited rights to enact "moral legislations." I hate the idea of the government dictating our lives just as much as the next guy. But some people need guidance through laws. Forsaking them in lieu of anarchistic privatism is an action of cowardice, not constitutionality. |
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