Hmm.. never noticed this thread before. :unsure:

Anyways, for the record, I was baptised as a Lutheran, but I go to United. See, my father was United (his ancestors lived in Regina and folded into the Canadian religion because they were WASPS), and my mother was a strict Lutheran (extreme german. My grandmother still plays organ at a german-english lutheran church). Well, anyways, I was baptized when I was a baby, and when I lived in Ontario until I was Five, I went to a Lutheran Church (my mom played organ there... was featured on the news because it's the biggest pipe organ in Canada :sneaky: ). But, then, when we moved here, there was only one church that needed an organist, and it was united. So, I've gone there. But, due to events when I was in grade.. 7, we stopped going. We tried going to our local United a few times, and my mom still does bible study there, except we don't go. So... I don't know. Call me Lutheran.

Wha? I thought "God" wrote it. Meh, I need to read up on Christianity.

I think god, heaven, hell, and all that religion stuff is pure bull****. It's all one big fairy tale.

I have a few friends yes, and if they do not become Christians, I believe that they will not go to heaven. Depressing yes, but it's what I beleive.

I've been agnostic for quite some time, and of course I'll put my two cents in here, I just don't see how any "man-made" religion could actually have merit. I think religions are fascinating though, in the way that they affect billions of people. Religions are basically a defense mechanism, for people who can't bear the thought of not "going to heaven" when they die. Reincarnation is almost as (if not more) ludicrous, but basically has the same functioning result" Death isn't the end. Well, I think it MOST likely is, and if it isn't, it's not going to be anything anyone recognizes, etc... you aren't going to be reunited with loved ones, and you aren't coming back as an animal, or even being lauded in Valhalla for that matter. Anyway, the point is live for today! LOL

Im against pretty much everything you said... i think it could be just chance that we happened to be the right distance from the sun and all... our galaxy alone has millions of stars and a lot of those stars have planets around them... and theres millions of galaxies out there... spread over trillions and trillions of light years... i think that with a number that big.... there has to be many planets with inteligent life out there...

I beleive when you die.. thats it.. your gone.. nothing else... i dont beleive in a soul either or anything like that... i dont beleive in reincarnation... and i dont beleive that there is any higher beings that we cant proove exist and have special powers to create people and everything on this planet... i think its all by chance..

Yeaah whatever im done.... i kinda wish i did beleive in all that stuff stu said tho... prolly would be a much happier person :)

Hm I might have a surprise for you... Marionette knows what religion I have... I'll tell you later.

So where do you believe all the materials of life, mass, energy and such in the universe came from?

Put it this way, everything leaves a trace behind for proof of something else... A camel leaves foot prints in the sand, fossilised bones of dinosaurs suggest dinosaurs exist, just as we humans, and all life on earth are living proof of the existance of something else, something that's left it's mark (God).

Or we're not from something that's left it's mark... we're just here... :p

And some people may argue "But how can we just BE HERE!? There has to be an explanation!" but there are a lot of unexplained things that happen... *shrugs*...

that sounds like an explanation to me :hmm:

DH, I think you're taking the easy, thoughtless, unimaginative way out...'bah, it's all cheese...we're just here, we'll die, nothing will happen, yadda yadd a yadda'...it doesn't take much time or effort to come to that conclusion

There has to be a reason why something exists. What's our reason?

For those of you interested, I really do suggest you read through this site thoroughly:

The Truth...

I reccommend reading the 4 articles presented by the 4 pictures first.

There's quite a lot though.

Shouldn't life be easy? If there was a creator, would he want us to waste our time trying to figure out if there was a god or not? I figure I'm here to live my life as I want, etc. I've never been interested in religion and quite frankly the "easy, thoughtless, unimaginitive way out" is what I believe in. To you it may be worthwhile to think about creation, god, etc...to me it's a waste.

Sweet website, Shadow.

Im Jewish




:sneaky:

seirously, Im Catholic. There seems to be a lot of Cathliocs here. Im not a good Catholic tho...I go to church maybe once a month...but I was confirmed into the church and such...so yea I had to do stuff and learn stuff and do service hours...

life was never meant to be easy

if you think deciding whether there is a god or not is wasting your time, why are you wasting your time replying to this thread?

by the sounds of it, you don't believe in the 'easy, thoughtless, unimaginative way out'.....it sounds like you believe in nothing...have you ever thought about being thankful for whoever/whatever gave us humans life? life is a gift...a gift given by something...personally, I think that trying to figure out who we owe our lives to isn't that much of a waste

Why couldn't you have just told us then? Are you trying to leave us in suspence, Mr. Mystery? ;)

That's the problem...I don't believe that "whoever/whatever" gave me life. Nobody came down and handed me life besides my mother because she gave birth to me. I'll thank her for the rest of my life, but that's a different story. I think that human life just happened...yes...I have no argument whatsoever, but I feel like I have the same amount of proof that "someone/something" created me, which leads me basically not to care. Nobody will ever be able to prove anything, and if I'm wrong and damned to hell, then shoot, but I'd rather make myself happy ( a living person, who I do know exists) rather than making some mystical creator happy. It may seem selfish, but in my mind it's common sense...bleh.

Theres no proof something created us at all... if something could create living things just like that .. why dont other planets have inteligent life like ours... huh? Why did he pick just this planet.. when im sure theres many other planets out there with an atmosphere :unsure: by chance theres gotta be... I think if the conditions are right.. life will happen.. and very slowly but surely it will evolve into inteligent life somehow....

I dont understand how you can possible think that.. a human soul or ghost thing.. will fly out of our bodies when we die... and it goes up to the clouds.. but for some reason.. its heaven up there.. and you get to chill with a bunch of dead people.. i just cant see that... reincarnation is eaven worse... yep... when you die.. you get reborn as someone else but have no memory of your last life... yeah.. i dont think so... or deep down in the earths core.. there is a guy wit funky legs, a pich fork, and horns.. and if you were bad in life .. you get sent down there.. :unsure:

Beleivening things like this just doesnt make sense to me...

SOMEWHERE in the Universe there probably is another planet that can support life, and it probably does have life...

But if there's not and you still say like "Only this planet has conditions for life, that's too big to be a coincidence, we must have been created by some awesome power!" then if this God or 'power' or whatever you believe in could create life, why couldn't it it make more planets be able to support life?

:sneaky:

Why, if God made us, would he feel obligated to make more life on another planet? That to be is compelling evidence because most likely with the number of stars out there there should be more intelligent life out there, but as far as we know there isn't. Besides that, why does there have to be cut and dry proof that God definetely exists?

All religions have something to do with faith. This is what bugs me about so many people is that they believe that religion is like calculus or something, it may be hard, but the answers are there. Well, not all the answers are there for religion because it wouldn't be a religion if we all knew that God existed and it required no faith. Believing in nothing makes less sense than believing in something. Firstly, there is no compelling evidence that there ISN'T a heaven or a hell. So, why would you want to believe that when you die, everything goes black and thats it?

Funny you mention atmosphere..:

Iron In the Qur’aan

In Soorah Al-Hadeed the 57th chapter of the Qur’aan in Ayaat 25 Allah states:

“Wa anzalnaal hadeed, feehi ba’sun shadeed, wa manaafi’u linaas (I have revealed (sent down) iron which has great force in it and benefit for humans)”

The term anzalnaa has been interpreted as "revealed" from the early generation of interpreters because it indeed has the meaning of "to reveal". Yet, even when Allah uses the term anzalnaa, for example in “Wa anzalnaa ilaykal Qur’aan lidh dhikr (We have revealed to you the Qur’aan for remembrance)” in reference to the Prophet Muhammad about the Qur’aan being revealed to him, it did actually involve coming down since it was sent down from the Lawhil-Mahfoudh, to Baitul-‘Izzah in the first heaven, and from there the angel Jibreel (Gabriel) brought verses down according to the command of Allah to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) so there was a process of coming down.

Now modern science, in looking at the issue of iron in the world, came to the conclusion that the origin of iron was from the core of the earth because the core of the earth is approximately 35% iron and then nickel. This is the molten core of the earth and as you go farther away from the core you get less and less iron until you get some 5.6% iron near the crust of the earth. Still it is amongst the highest elements in the crust percentage- wise, but it still appears to come from the inside outward. So where does the idea of the coming down of iron fit in? Again, the conclusion was it was revealed. That is, knowledge of its use was revealed to human beings. Allah gave them the capacity to understand and to utilize iron. This was the explanation given.


The Sun's temperature is 27,000,000º Fahrenheit (i.e. 15,000,000º Celsius) at the center.

However, more modern research came to the conclusion that in fact iron couldn’t have begun in the core of the earth! It couldn’t have begun there! Why? Because the sun of our solar system, which is the hottest location in the solar system, in its own core only reaches - according to their calculation - approximately 15,000,000 degrees Celsius. Of course this is quite hot, however it is not hot enough to produce iron! The most common element in the universe is hydrogen, which is the first element in the periodic table, while helium is number two and everything else is a combination containing some fusion of the atoms of hydrogen and helium to produce other elements. Iron is way down the line. It is number 56 and as such, the heat which is necessary had to be in the billions of degrees! They estimate someplace it had to be around 5 billion degrees to produce iron. So our sun could not produce iron. So then where did the iron come from? This was the question puzzling researchers.

In the late eighties, studying stars, they came to realize of course that there were huge stars much greater than the Sun – our star – which did in fact in their degeneration, their evolution or development, generate the kind of heat that could produce iron when they went nova or super-nova. They exploded and iron shot out into the universe in the form of meteorites etc. Most of the meteorites which hit the Earth are made mostly of iron. So in looking back, scientists in the late eighties began to re-examine their view of the development of the Earth and they came to the conclusion that in fact what happened was the Earth - which was a produce of the evolution of the Sun - was like a ball of ash and that the meteorites hit the surface of the Earth and in hitting the surface it increased the heat of the Earth because with the impact there was energy released. So meteor showers hitting the Earth increased the heat enough to melt that iron, not produce iron, but to melt that iron and it would then sink through the surface towards the center of the Earth and became concentrated in the core of the earth and that’s how they explain it now.

You can find this in Stephen Hawking’s book called “A Brief History of Time” a best-seller from one of the biggest, most famous atheists out there and another book called ”The First Three Minutes” by Steven Weinberg. Both of them present the exact same picture of how iron came to the core of the Earth. So from that, we see iron actually coming down to the Earth as Allah described it.

Additionally, iron is the most stable element. The bonds which hold its atomic structure together are the strongest bonds of all of the other elements so it does have that “ba’sun shadeed”. And of course its benefit is that it being most of the Earth’s core it produced the basis of the gravitational pull of the Earth which holds the atmosphere and the biosphere around the Earth. Without that iron core to produce the gravitational field, we would not have any atmosphere on the Earth and no life would survive on the Earth! Critical! Furthermore, when you go into human beings there is hemoglobin, and when you go into plants chlorophyll. These are the essential elements that transform energy from material sources, from the Sun etc. to chemical energy in our bodies which allow the cells to grow. In everything, both human beings and plants, iron is essential for their development and this was described in the Qur’aan some 1400 years ago.

These are among the signs, for those who would reflect, that there is in fact a God. Life on Earth certainly WASN'T down to chance.

Further proof of how what was revealed to the Prophet Mohammed was from a higher being, and not a human source. None of this was known over 1400 years ago...

It doesn't seem like proof to me at all. I read through the articles on your website (except for the birth one), and it sounds somewhat convincing but isn't like the Qur'aan explicitly states exactly that Iron was sent from a star not of our own because our sun is not hot enough. Nor does it explicitly explain how the planets were created, or the other things that website tries to prove the Qur'aan states 1400 years ago.

The quote you gave is said in a roundabout way, and the articles also seem to explain things in a roundabout way. They are saying things in a certain way to make it seem like it is absolute proof.

Like the translation of the quote up there, it says God "revealed" but then says "sent down." It seems like it's changing things around to make it seem more convincing.

I respect your beliefs, don't get me wrong. But what that website and article are doing is reminiscient of what people do with the Christian Bible and especially the book of Revelation. They manipulate the words said in order to make it seem like undoubtable "proof" of something else.

I admit it's interesting, and something I didn't know about Islam. But I personally don't think finding "proof" in holy books is necessary to believe in a God (though I don't believe in what Islam says you must believe about Allah).

The proof of God is all around us. A higher being anyway, and maybe multiple higher beings. Maybe a better description is that God is an extremely smart or "higher" alien race, one from outward of this universe or realm we know.

Re: Religion
 

Hi.

I am a Muslim, and follow the religion of Islam. And Yes, I do believe my religion is the correct religion. Why is that?

It's plain and simple.

The Qur'an is Allah's words [God], it contains no contradictions such as the Bible, and many other Holy Books, and if you think it does have a contradiction, or something which is false, please bring it forth.

Allah [God] has challenged anyone to even come up with a chapter like the Qur'an, yet no one has succeeded, absolutely no one, doesn't this indicate it's true? Since no human-being, not even those with PHD'S can even attempt to imitate it?

Concerning the second question, do we believe that only the people in our religion will go to heaven? Well, we believe that those who testify to the one-ness of God, without attributing any partners will go to heaven one day. This is the main part of islam [Tauheed-oneness of Allah].

But there will also be many Muslims who wont go to heaven straight away, we aren't guaranteed paradise for free, we have to work for it, follow the commands set by God in his book [The Qur'an], and be sincere, and only do it to please HIM.

And about you believing that the other religions are right, like Hindu's and Christianity, well I just have one doubt about that, the bible contains so much contradictions, and Hindu's, they believe in Monkey's, so how can a lord be a Monkey? Worse than a human?

No evidence that there isn't a heaven or hell? How about the fact that nobody has ever been there? There's no compelling evidence that if you put all the cell phones in the world by eachother they'd turn into a monster, so do you believe in that? It's no different than believing heaven or hell other than the fact that there aren't millions of people brainwashed to believe it.

And how does believing that an all powerful being, (or "creature" or whatever you want to call god) who nobody can see, created people make more sense than... Well anything? Have you ever seen something that could create people using his magical powers? Maybe on a fairy tale, which is exactly what religions are.

And it's not about believing what you want to believe, it's what you actually think. Sure, I'd love to believe that when I die I can go to some huge place where all the other dead people are and meet Owen Hart, but it's about 100 times more believable that when I die, that's it, I'm dead.

This was a short post, written by someone, on why we Muslims believe in Allah.

Also I ask you lot, why are we in this world? Would God just bring us for no reason? It is a test for us, to see what we do, and who are the true believers, and who aren't.

I have never seen Allah because I do not possess the ability to see Him. If we were to use the rationale that "if something cannot be detected by the standard five senses then it does not exist", then I would assume you are a mindless person because I cannot see, touch, hear, smell or taste your mind. But I know you have one because there is ample evidence.

I could ask you what kind of car you drive. I drive a Civic. I have never met any of the designers, the people who worked on the manufacturing process, or the people who test drove it, etc. I do not know their names. I do not know where they live or if they are even alive anymore.

But I know someone, some entity with the power to design and fashion such a complex object, did exist at one time or another. It is impossible and absurd to assume that the parts of the car somehow formed themselves altogether and then assembled themselves to form a car. I know a company called Honda exists and it is run by humans.

The same goes for other objects like houses, airplanes, rockets, etc. These required people to think about them, design, build and maintain them.

After all that, I find it very strange and absurd that people assume that something like the Earth or the Universe [which is infinitely more complex than a car or a house] could come together by itself. Surely there must be a Being out there who has designed this Universe and all that is in it, with great wisdom, and is also taking care of these Creations.

In English we call this Being by the name "God' and in Islam we use the Arabiy term "Allah". This term is used not only by Muslims but also by Arab-speaking Christians or Arab-speaking Jews to refer to God.

You asked if God has spoken to me. Yes He has. Not to me personally, but to all of Mankind. His words are what make up the Qur'an. It contains the words of God, which were recorded by men with great care. There are no mistakes in the Qur'an.

I challenge you to find any.

Every single copy of the Qur'an in the world today is the same word for word, letter for letter. Whether it is a copy from 1400 years ago or if it was printed just a week ago. Whether it is from China or Saudi Arabia or Brazil or America or Malaysia. It does not matter.

It is interesting to note the the British Crusaders tried, some time ago, to wipe out Islam by destroying all copies of the Qur'an. they offered vast incentives for people who would turn in their copies of the Qur'an. Most people had no idea what the British were doing. Eventually one man with two sons approached the British officer who was collecting the copies and told him that they would never be able to wipe out the Qur'an because, and then he pointed to his sons' chests, he told them that the Muslims keep the Qur'an protected in their hearts. There are Muslims, many of them, who have memorized the entire Qur'an.

The British gave up.

Regarding the standards we have in our religion, they are not man-made. They were set by God and His Messenger. If you insist otherwise, then bring forth your evidence.

Re: Re: Religion
 

Wow. You're boiling down both religions to just that? First, present us with contradictions from the Bible, don't simply state it. I don't know about Hindus, but I doubt the only thing they believe is something about monkeys.

What about Jews? What about Buddhists?

If I were you I would show a little more respect for the other religions unless you want to get seriously flamed.

Re: Re: Re: Religion
 

The reason why I havn't come up with contradictions yet, is because I could just give you a website, and say 'hey, check out the false bible,' but you could also give a link to me and say 'check out the contradictions in the Qur'an,' and hence the discussion will go no where, because I'll just be showing a site to you, so if you want contradictions, I will research some, i've read some before in the past.

And if you've got contradictions in the Qur'an, then please bring them forward.

This is a contradiction concerning the Easter story related in the Bible, it follows the following sequence, and shows a different range of stories in the different books:

New Testament Book / Author Statement / Witness Verse(s) [The book name is given first, then the statement, and the verse]

The Visitors to the Tomb

As you can see, there are different visitors related in each book:

Matthew "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary". 28:1
Mark "Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome". 16:1
Luke "Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women". 24:10
John "Mary Magdalene". 20:1

Their Purpose in Visiting the Tomb

Matthew They came "to see the tomb". Doesn't previously mention that the body was already spiced, but only "wrapped" (27:59). 28:1
Mark They "brought spices" in order to "anoint him". Doesn't previously mention that the body was spiced, but only "wrapped" (15:46). 15:47, 16:1
Luke To bring "the spices which they had prepared". Previous to this it mentions that the body was "wrapped" (23:53) and that the women "prepared spices" (23:56). 24:1
John No reason stated, but the body was "bound" with "spices" by Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus on one of the day(s) previous to Sunday . Notice that Luke 23:55 says that "the women" observed the tomb and "how the body was laid" - but later had to return to bring the "spices which they had prepared" (24:1)!!! 19:38-40

The Time of the Visit to the Tomb

Matthew As it "began to dawn". 28:1
Mark It was "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NKJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV). 16:2
Luke It was "very early in the morning" (KJV); "very early in the morning" (NKJV); "at early dawn" (NRSV). 24:1
John It was "early, while it was still dark". 20:1

The Status of the Entrance of the Tomb

Matthew Closed, but opened by an angel after a "great earthquake". 28:2
Mark Open, since "the stone had been rolled away". They entered the tomb. 16:4-5
Luke Open, since "they found the stone rolled away". Seemingly their first visit to the tomb, since they were "greatly perplexed about this". 24:2-4
John Opened, and Mary runs to "Simon Peter, and to the other disciple". 20:1-2

The Angel(s)/Messenger(s) at the Tomb

Matthew One "angel of the Lord". 28:2-7
Mark One "young man clothed in a long white robe". 16:5
Luke Two "men" who "stood by them in shining garments". 24:4
John Two angels "in white" appear to Mary after "Simon Peter" and to the "other disciple" depart. 20:12

The Location of the Angel(s)/Messenger(s) at the Tomb

Matthew Angel spoke while sitting on the stone. 28:2
Mark Sitting inside the tomb, on the "right side". 16:5
Luke Standing "beside them" inside the tomb. 24:3-4
John Sitting "one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain". 20:12

The Statment(s) of the Angels(s)/Messenger(s)

Matthew "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and indeed he is going before you into Galilee; there you will see him: Behold, I have told you." 28:5-7
Mark "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go and tell his disciples - and Peter - that he is going before you into Galilee; there you will see him, as he said to you." 16:6-7
Luke "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen! Remember how he spoke to you when he was still in Galilee, saying, 'The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.'" 24:5-7
John "Woman, why are you weeping?", Mary then turns around and sees Jesus, but doesn't recognize him. 20:13-14

Did the Visitors to the Tomb Tell Others?

Matthew Yes, since they "ran to bring his disciples word". 28:8
Mark No, since "they said nothing to anyone". Later it says that Mary Magdalene "went and told those who had been with him". 16:8; 16:10
Luke Yes, since "they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest". 24:9, 22-24
John Yes, since "Mary Magdelene came and told the disciples". 20:18

Did "Mary" Know That Jesus was Resurrected?

Matthew Yes. (28:7-8
Mark Yes. 16:10,11
Luke Yes. 24:10, 22-23
John No. 20:2, 14

Who was the "First" to see Jesus?

Matthew Apparently Mary Magdalene and Mary, since they "met" Jesus on the way to tell the disciples. 28:9
Mark Mary Magdalene was "first". 16:9
Luke Apparently the two on the road to Emmaus. 24:13
John Mary Magdalene. 20:14
When did "Mary" First See Jesus?
Matthew On her way to tell the disciples. 28:9
Mark Before she returned to the disciples. 16:9, 10
Luke Doesn't say. ---
John At the tomb, after the angel(s) spoke to her - "Simon Peter, and to the other disciple" had "went away".. 20:10, 14

Was Jesus in a Spiritual or Physical Body After the Resurrection?
Matthew Physical, since they "came and held him by the feet", even though he managed to get out of the tomb before the stone was rolled away. 28:9
Mark Like a spirit, since he "appeared" to Mary Magdalene, but "appeared" in "another form" to the two men on the road. 16:9, 12
Luke Physical, since Jesus says "a spirit does not have flesh and bones" and he eats. 24:39, 43
John Seemingly spiritual, since Jesus says "do not cling to me". However, Thomas later touches Jesus. 20:17, 27
The First Appearance of Jesus (After the Women)
Matthew To the "eleven disciples". 28:16
Mark To "two" disciples "in the country", but later he appears to "the eleven". 16:12,14
Luke To the two disciples travelling on the road to Emmaus, and later to "the eleven". 24:13,36
John A number is not stated, but Thomas - "one of the twelve" - was absent (along with Judas), so apparently only ten. 20:19, 24
Paul - I Corinthians To "Cephas" (i.e. Peter), and then to "the twelve" (even though all of the Gospels only mention "eleven", since Judas was already dead!!!) 15:5
The Location of Jesus’ First Appearance
Matthew On a mountain in Galilee, which is, at a minimum, between 60 and 70 miles away!!!. 28:16-17
Mark "In the country" to two disciples, but to the eleven "as they sat at the table". 16:12,14
Luke On the road to Emmaus (about seven miles from Jerusalem), and later to the disciples in a room in Jerusalem in the "evening". 24:29, 31, 33, 36
John In a room, during the "evening". 20:19

Did the Disciples of Jesus Believe the "Two Men"?

Matthew Not mentioned.. ---
Mark No, since "they did not believe them either". 16:13
Luke Yes; since "the eleven" were saying "The Lord is risen indeed . . . " - as if they already knew. 24:34
John Two men not mentioned. Doesn't say if they believed Mary. ---
What Happened at the Appearance of Jesus?

Matthew The disciples "worshipped him", though "some doubted", Jesus speaks. 28:17-18
Mark Jesus "rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart". 16:14
Luke Jesus, unrecognizable to any of them, materializes out of nowhere, and the discipes "thought they had seen a spirit". Jesus questions "the eleven", eats, and then "led them out as far as Bethany". 24:36-50
John Jesus appears "in their midst" (even though the "doors were shut") and the disciples were "glad" to see him. Jesus speaks, but does not reprimand them. 21:19-23

Did Jesus Stay on Earth for Very Long After the Ressurection?
Matthew Doesn't say. 28:17-18
Mark No, since he was "received up into heaven" after he had spoken. Note that John 20:19 says that the meeting took place on "the first day of the week" - i.e. Sunday.. 16:19
Luke No, since he ascends on Sunday evening - the same day of his resurrection. This can be deduced because on "that same day" (24:13), which was "the third day since" the crucifixion (24:20-21), he met the two on the road to Emmau and continued with them until it was "toward evening" (24:29). After recognizing Jesus that evening, the two "rose up that very hour and returned to Jeruslam" (24:33), where they met "the eleven". Jesus appeared to them as "they said these things" (24:36). Jesus speaks to them and then accompanies them "as far as Bethany" (24:50), where he then ascends (24:51). 24:13, 20-21, 29, 33, 36, 50-51
John Yes, at least "eight" days. 20:26
Acts Yes, since it specifies "forty" days. 1:3

The Location of Jesus’ Ascension into Heaven

Matthew No ascension reported and the book ends on the mountain in Galilee. ---
Mark In "Galilee", after meeting "the eleven". 16:7; 16:14
Luke In Bethany, near Jerusalem. 24:50-51
John Jesus' ascension is not mentioned. ---
Acts From the Mount of Olives. 1:9-12
Paul Never mentions the ascension. ---
Did Jesus Tell His Disciples to Stay in Jerusalem?
Matthew Not mentioned, but apparently not since they went to Galilee (a minium of 60-70 miles away). ---
Mark Not mentioned, but apparently he did not, since they went to Galilee (a minium of 60-70 miles away). ---
Luke Yes, he told them "tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high". After the ascension, they returned from Bethany "to Jersalam" and "were continually in the temple". The "power from on high " came fifty days after the resurrection on Pentecost (Acts 1 and 2). 24:50-53
John Not mentioned. ---
Acts Yes, he told them "not to depart from Jerusalem". 1:4

And 'Manasecret', you are right when you stated that the religions dont just boil down to what I stated, but anyway here's some more information on hinduism, if you need any refutation of these religions then please ask.

Hindus believe in many gods and goddesses. Some of them are human (e.g. Krishna, Rama [ 13 ]), some animals (e.g. fish, monkey, rat, snake), (some animal-humans as in the case of Ganesh who has the head of elephant with trunk and the body of a human), and some others are natural phenomena (e.g. dawn, fire, sun). Their number is generally believed to be 330 million. According to Hindu belief, god incarnates, i.e., takes the form of human being and other animals and appears in this earth in that form. Gods and goddesses were born like human beings and had wives and children. No god possesses absolute power; some of the gods are weaker than the sages and some others even weaker than the monkey (e.g. Rama).
Another aspect about Hindu gods is that the status of their godhood is not fixed. One finds that some gods were worshipped for a time and then abandoned and new gods and goddesses were adopted instead. The gods and goddesses worshipped now-a-days in Hindu homes and temples are not Vedic. The Vedic gods like Agni (fire), Surya (sun) Usha (dawn) are completely rejected and the gods and goddesses mentioned in the Puranas are worshipped by modern Hindus. Similarly, Rama who is currently receiving increasing acceptance among Hindus in India because of the wide propagation of the official and other media was never worshipped as a deity until the eleventh century.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion
 

I don't have contradictions to present and I don't plan on finding any. I respect your religion and your beliefs. And you're right, if I wanted to find some the discussion would be circular.

I think you missed my point in my post. My point was that I think you should give more respect to the other religions and not treat them so simply or condescendingly.

However, if you have contradictions to present then please post them. Unless you tell us what you think the contradictions to be, we don't actually know if they are contradictions. It may be something you believe is a contradiction while others may not.

So post some or post a link. I'd like to read some.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion
 

Yeh, you're right.

I didn't mean to disrespect any religion by stating what I stated, but I realise I was wrong about the Hindu's comment, stating they only believe in monkeys, which they dont. Sorry.

And in Islam, we are also commanded to respect everyones beliefs, and as it states 'There is no compulsion in religion.' So if anyone doesn't want to accept Islam, that is the road they take.......

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses. :)

Tadaa it all makes sense now.

I'm very content with my religion. It's a very active one, so it takes up quite a lot of time. But that's really worth it, it keeps us awake and we really learn a lot about the bible and the coming Kingdom on earth.

As you can see, we are quite normal people. We even post on gaming forums! :D

Why do we visit you at home? Because Jesus tells us to do so in the bible. We don't earn money with it. Today, the work is totally paid by voluntary gifts. We personally don't keep the money you'd give us, it's used to finance the printing of the reading matter and stuff.
We believe we can save lives with this work.

Like most religions, we truly believe it's the right one. :)

A thing I like about my religion, is that we have 'family' everywhere. Last year I moved to another town for university, and right away I had really good friends. :D

Sorry, but NOTHING was manipulated! Please read the part about that again.

The sent down is a thing in brackets, not the actual translation... Hence it helps to expand the meaning to the common reader... I don't know where you got the idea from that words were manipulated. That's the miracle, and beauty of the Qur'aan, it's so simple, yet has an almost limitless depth of wisdom and information.

I don't see what's so roundabout about anything, even very famous, non-muslim astronomers, geologists, etc seem to marvel at how accurate, AND DETAILED the scientific details are in the Qur'aan. None of what is said in the Qur'aan could have come from human sources, totally impossible (which is also said by numerous scientists)... The only place those words in the Qur'aan came from is from a higher being, one that actually created the universe, one that knows the ins and outs of how things were made.

If you have any contradictions in the Qur'aan, or any questions, then bring them forth, because Allah has challenged anyone to make even a chapter like it, yet no one has succeeded.

And, if you have any more time, I strongly suggest you look at the stages of the human development article...

The point of the actual book [Qur'aan] is to show that islam is the truth, to order commands, and to prohibit certain things, and to give it as a manual to those who believe. It's a way of life.

"The Qur’aan is not a book of science but a book of ‘signs’, i.e. ayats. There are more than six thousand ‘signs’ in the Qur’aan of which more than a thousand deal with science. We all know that many a times Science takes a ‘U-turn’. In this book I have considered only established scientific facts and not mere hypotheses and theories that are based on assumptions and are not backed by proof."

Could you please expand on that, I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say..?

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Ok, cool. We can leave it at that I suppose.

Thanks for posting the contradictions. I see now what you mean by contradictions, contradictions in the exact details of certain events.

What I thought you meant was that there were contradictions in the values or beliefs that Jesus taught. I can see how contradictions such as the examples you gave may turn people away from the Christian Bible, but I think it's important to remember that the gospels were written many years after the events came to pass. Also I think it's important to remember that the principles and values preached are more important than the exact details, at least that's how it's taught to Catholics.

Also, thanks for the information on Hindus.

I just want to make a comment here.

There have been a lot of really long posts in this thread. And the longest of them all wasn't written by me. How often does that happen? :D

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Religion
 

Yep, that's what I mean by contradictions 'Manasecret.' :)

The Qur'an [Holy Book of Muslims] was also collected many years after the revelation had occured, but it was memorised by many of the people with the Prophet peace be upon him [Word for word], and hence was recorded all in order.

We Muslims believe the bible was also the word of God, and so was the Torah, but the fact of the matter is these books were distorted by common people, who had evil intentions.

As stated by a former Christian missionary, Dr Gary Miller:

The Bible consists of 66 small books. About 18 of them begin by saying: This is the revelation God gave to so and so… The rest make no claim as to their origin. You have for example the beginning of the book of Jonah which begins by saying: The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Elmitaeh saying… quote and then it continues for two or three pages.

Our book is one. It's been the same since it's been revealed. Compare our copy of the Qur'an to the old copies found in the library, and you would not even find a difference in one thing. I guarantee this. Just pick up the Qur'an and try read it, find anything wrong with it.

We hope God guides us all to the right path.

No Problem about information of Hindus. :)

Hey aren't you surprised to have a Jehovah's Witness among you??? :confused: :D

About those 'contradictions': Some writers give more or less details than others. They sometimes use different ways of telling the same story. Most 'contradicions' can be solved like that. Call it cheap, but it works.

I've never found any controdictions in the bible. Sometimes things require some investment, but you'll find out that they make perfect sense.

Isn't it amazing that the more than 40 writers of the bible, of who most of them didn't know eachother, write so many things that agree with eachother???

The Quran is written by one person (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I'm not), it's not that hard to write a convincing book as when you have 40+ writers.

Edit: The bible is also a lot older.

Before I start I'm not trying to say that what you believe is wrong, I'm simply saying that I personally don't consider it proof that the Qur'aan came from Allah. I respect what you believe.

That's just the thing, "sent down" is not the actual translation yet they put it there to help "expand the meaning." To me that means manipulate it. Like I said, the Qur'aan doesn't explicitly say that something like "Because our Sun is not hot enough to produce Iron, Iron was sent to Earth from other stars beyond our galaxy because, as they burn much much hotter, they were able to create Iron." It says something that you have to read into beyond the literal in order to get that it "predicted" that's what happened.

Another example, and excerpt from the Qur'aan that I got from the "Creation of Man" article:

"Man we did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then we placed as (a drop of) sperm (nutfah) in a place firmly fixed; Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood (‘alaqah); Then of that clot we made a (fetus) lump (mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature."

I admit it sounds convincing the way they explain it, but literally it says man was made from clay and went through different stages that don't actually explicitly explain the processes. You have to look past the literal to find that it could stand for all the stages of birth.

My point is, it takes faith to believe that the Qur'aan was made by God, and to me personally things such as what the articles say aren't absolute proof.

As I said, I don't have any contradictions to present. I'm confused by what "Allah has challenged anyone to make even a chapter like it, yet no one has succeeded" means. Like the Qur'aan how? I just don't get that statement.

Quote:

Could you please expand on that, I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say..?

In the "What is Islam?" article, it gives a list of what "the true faithful Muslim believes," which is what I was referring to. I believe in a God but I don't believe in what that says I must believe about God (such as there is only one true God).

The list:
"The true faithful Muslim believes in the following principal articles of faith:

Belief in one God (Allah), Supreme and Eternal, Infinite and Mighty, Merciful and Forgiving, the Creator and the Provider, He begets not, nor was He begotten, and there is none equal or comparable unto Him.

Belief in all Messengers of Allah (Ar-Rusul) without any discrimination among them, as every known nation had a Warner or Messenger from Allah. They were chosen by Allah to teach humanity and deliver His Divine message. The Qur'aan mentions the names of some of them, and Muhammad (sallAllahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) stands as the Last Messenger and the crowning glory of the foundation of prophethood.

Belief in all original scriptures and revelations of Allah (Al-Kutub), accepting them as the guiding light that the messengers received to show their respective people the right path to Him. In the Qur'aan, special reference is made to the books of Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus (‘alaihimus salaam), but long before the revelation of the Qur'aan to .... "

And so on.

Then how come so much priests are becoming Muslims and writing articles which refute christianity?

And prove the refutations wrong.

I will repeat again, the bibles is full of contradictions, but if these contradictions are just made up by people, then please prove me wrong-I only posted one refutation, because there's no point in posting too much on it, when the first refutation cant be disproved.

You have to understand that there are many believes withing chritianity. Some believes don't make much sense, because they can't answer most of the harder questions about the bible.

That doesn't mean the bible is wrong. We Jehovah's Witnesses have made a HUGE study on the bible, and we've discovered a lot of things that other believes don't know or believe. Things like you don't go to heaven or hell when you die. In fact, there is no burning hell. There is a heaven, but only 144,000 go there to (int he future) rule the earth together with Christ our King. Who do they rule?
Us, the normal people who lived a good life and deserve to live in a paradise, a paradise as God intended to make in the first place.

Things like that make the bible a lot more clear.

Oh yeah, the bible often uses illustrations. Things that didn't really happen. That can also seem to cause contradictions.

The original language of the Qur'an is Arabic.

The Verse you're referring to is the following:



The meaning of the arabic 'Wa Anzal Hadeed' is literally to the nearest meaning 'And We brought forth iron.'

The translation the other member put was:

I have revealed (sent down) iron

They both mean the same thing. That Allah sent down iron. The Arabic is translated to English in different ways, some in classical English, whilst some is in standard English, but the meaning still doesn't change. But the best way to see the meaning of a verse, is to read up the tafseer [explanation] as well, and this clarifys everything.

And it isn't manipulating it.

The Qur'an doesn't have to explain everything in scientific detail to the dot, it is not a scientific book, it is a book which contains scientific details, in order to show man/woman that Islam predicted various things 1400 years ago, which are now becoming apparent, and true.

The Qur'an as stated by a previous member is a book to set a way of life for Muslims, and set commands and prohibitions, and just use it as a manual in our life-because it is the word of God.