Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

I think the point that's trying to be stressed is people on the side of creationism typically say "Well you can't prove how evolution happened. You can't prove there isn't a God." However, on the other hand they can't prove there is a God.


The bad thing I find in "faith", is that it closes some minds to expanding our knowledge of life itself.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

That really depends on what you define as proof. For a Christian the Bible is their proof. Apparently a man was able to walk on water and heal people with prayer and do various other miracles. Then they'd turn around and ask where's your ptoof.. My point is that it is a choce based off of faith to belive that there's no creator.

I actually agree with that statement, in a way. Though I think if nobody was religious, and everyone just accepted that we were created out of random chance, then it'd be just as bad. I think having conflicting faiths helps with the pursuit of the truth.. but the problem is that the truth exists so far back in time that it can't really be proved one way or another.

Though we're in an age of recorded history now.. as long as things stay this way, another 3-5,000 years or so down the line there might be atual video evidence of evolution, or maybe man itself will have evolved over time.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

The thing about science, is that time won't change the answer.


Also, how would it be bad if people believed that we were made by a random chance, or even a high possibility on every planet - except our planet (among with thousands upon thousands of others in our Galaxy alone) have the right conditions for housing and sustaining the beginning organisms?

I view that a miracle in itself. (Let's say for argument's sake was housed in an asteroid that crashed into earth depositing the cells here) If our specific building blocks of life crashed into any other planet, asteroid, or even just flat out didn't hit the Earth, we wouldn't be alive right now. The same principle of our birth from sperm to egg, can be applied to asteroid to planet. It's all just chance.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

There's been plenty of times in history where science's widely accepted answers to things were proven to be wrong. This is why scientific discoveries are almost always labeled as theories. The underlying answer to things will never change, but they also can never be proven to be true in every circumstance.

Its not bad if people believe it, its bad if EVERYONE believes it. Usually anything that's accepted to be a fact by everyone is never questioned hard enough, and takes much longer to disprove. Whenever there's a conflict of Ideas, the truth is actively searched for.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Everyone always brings up the "it's just a theory" argument, when the term isn't being used how you think it is. In science, a theory is an analytic structure designed to explain a set of empirical observations. It isn't guesswork.

Hmm, then there laws. Gravity is a law but is explained through theories.

Really wishing I did not drop out of my first college now. But on that topic, I took a senior level course on evolution during my freshmen year. I did horribly (take the required prerequisites kids) but I did learn that evolution is anything but random. You would not believe the insane amount of math behind something like getting a chicken.

I have no problem with believing what you want to believe...until it goes against something that can be proved. Like how during the middle ages it was agreed upon that the world was flat, mice were born from dirt, the sun revolves around the earth, etc. Evolution is a little harder to explain. You can't just point and say "look, there it is."

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Who here is arguing for creationism? I see your point on a general creationism vs. evolution debate (depending upon the definition of creationism you're using), but I don't believe TheGame has supported creationism in his argument.

As KG said, none of the points raised have a bearing on if there is or is not a God, they are simply an evolution of our understanding of how the universe functions.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Its not 100% guesswork, but it also isn't a fact. A scientific fact is an observeable natural occurance. We cannot observe macro evolution, thereforce it cannot be labeled as a fact. A scientific theory is an attempt to explain how natural occurances work. While a theory is based off of facts, it is not a fact. It attempts to put together scientific facts to come to a conclusion that cannot actually be observed in full.

I don't personally discount how well thought out some theories are, but in the end, its just a theory... any way you look at it. For all we know we could be living in the Matrix. Or we could be the build up under some exteremely large evolved creature's toenail, just waiting for the day where he cleans us out.. Or like a weird Anime I watched touched on.. The would could have just been created when you were born, and you could be in complete control of your environment and not even know it.. and when you die the worls could end.

-EDIT-

Just tossing in this to add tot he first point. Someone mentioned evolution is as much of a theory as gravity. The thing is, gravity is a scientific fact. Gravity is observeable and testable. The theories come in where they use that scientific fact to try to explain the orgins of gravity, or explain what creates gravity.

Evolution is a scientific fact also, you see man evolve from a child into an adult (aka micro evolution), and we're even seeing some slow generational evolution. The theories for evolution come into play when they use it to explain the orgin of our species.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

I was simply making a statement of how I dislike it when people say that.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

There is a lot going on in this thread, but I want to clarify my points a little further:

1) Origins of life: If you'd like to say random chance, a chance so remote the many statisticians believe it near impossible if not impossible, is the origin of life, thats fine. I remain open to the other option as well. There is as much "science" to support that as the religion/God(s) theory, a theory simultaneously held for thousands of years by many cultures who never interacted with one another. There is something to be said for that, and arguments of "needing an answer" have little to support them other than a thought process intended to find an answer other than "God". They all didn't believe in a purple dragon, of the infamous "spaghetti monster in the sky" as many of the more egotistocal atheists like to call it.

2) "Proving God". This is an impossibility. Even if God came down from the heavens, turned water into grape juice and and cured all diseases, there would still be those who would disbelieve, and the "scientific theorists" would be the first to do so, because they couldn't "prove" how it happened. If you can't prove it, it never happened, right? There must be some provable explanation or random confluence of events because the alternative is not acceptable and cannot be considered... kind of lile the idea of a higher power sparking life into being.

3) I am not a science bigot, but a science realist. There is a lot that is wrong with the scientific community, and most of it driven by ego and the need to be accepted by peers. Tesla was derided and ignored for decades after his death because a rival scientist (Edison) had the hearts and minds (and money) of the community. The fact that much of the community refuses to accept the possibility of God as an option because it's immmeasurable is not based in scientific evidence to the contrary, it's based in closed minded thinking. One can experiment in finding alternatives while keeping other possibilities available, and when the scientific community makes gross assumptions based on theories (evolutionary theory has been horribly abused and overstated in it's scope) it closes more doors than it opens. No one in mainstream science will even sniff at the idea of challenging many of the current assumptions made from evolutionary theory, and thats a huge cultural problem in science, not a scientific one.

I honestly hope that every scientist available puts as much effort available towards determining the origins of life and every other mystery of the universe, and I hope they find answers to all their questions, but considering devine alternatives is not a detriment to this process if one thinks objectively, and can in fact open up new avenues to explore because it asks that we try and prove thewories instead of just assuming they are true.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Ah ok. With the whole chicken thing I thought I was having to prove the whole concept of evolution. Yeah, the origin of our species it's a little muddled. Changes with every new finding.

You do realize all cultures had very unique gods and creation stories. It sounds like you're saying that the concept of gods in most cultures has the same validity as tested experiments involving self-replicating amino acids which is the proposed basis for life. Really? For a people with no knowledge of what the sun is, of course they'll create stories behind why it rises and falls every day and night, thus you have a myriad of sun gods. And as cultures interacted they took bits and pieces to add to their mythology. There are a number of resurrection gods as well. Why do people dismiss the older god Osiris when Jesus was probably based on him. And poor Zeus gets no respect these days. There might not be purple dragons (or there might be, there are a hell of a lot of gods out there) but you do have the Japanese dragon god Watatsumi and the feathered snake god Quetzalcoatl for example. In the world of gods there is no proof, but your own belief. Which is fine. Believe in whatever you like. It can't be disproven. Just don't dismiss actual studies and experiments in the same breathe as the sun being pulled by a chariot across the sky.

And besides, Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Gravity is a theory. Gravity is under current revision as we look for the Higgs boson (the "God particle) with the Large Hadron Collider. Gravity is a weak force (in fact the weakest I believe), and the point of finding the Higgs bosons is to account for the disparities in forces. If you want to think about how weak gravity is....stick a magnet to your fridge and watch it defy Earth's gravity. Pretty neat.

But yeah, the point of my comparison was there is a ton of evidence which suggests even if our current theory isn't 100% right it's still pretty strong. Evolution and Gravity are both pretty strong theories.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Collective unconscious? Common fear of the unknown? It's not totally implausible to rule out. But indeed the collective belief in some divine being is quite compelling to think about.

I have no problems with this argument. I just assume you're not a Christian and that you are a Deist? I'm making this assumption based on your first point. In your first point you allude to a commonality in all humans. Whereas the majority of all religions are EXCLUSIVE. If you don't follow their set of rules you go to Hell! Take Christianity: if Jesus did come down to Earth, then the billions of people who have a collective tingling for some divine creator but are not Christian are still going to burn in Hell.

Also, to be clear, are you alluding in your post that there has been some proof of a divine creator?

How has evolution been overstated? I feel like evolution is used as pseudo-science in armchair anti-religious discussions, but in the real world (medical, biological communities) evolution is used to further medical research, vaccinations, stem-cell research, understanding of the brain, understanding of drug addictions, etc.

I'm just curious...towards what step does science take if they incorporate divine alternatives into research?

I'm not lambasting you or trying to stimulate aggressive discussion....btw. I'm impressed that this thread has yet to derail. Woo, trains! Choo choo!

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

You have a misunderstanding of the difference between a scientific fact, law, and theory. A scientific fact is ANY observeable occurance. A scientific fact does not need an explination, its just something that we can observe. A scientific theory is an explination of HOW that occurance was created, or what causes that natural occurance, and in some cases just an explanation of how the occurance works. A scientific law is the math that we observe to be behind a natural occurance.

Check this out on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...heory_and_fact

I was actually kinda suprised to find this article this morning. But I think it helps put this whole debate in perspective and explains my point.

The theory is just the explanation. A theory, as well thought out as it can be, cannot be proven to be true in all circumstances, and/or cannot be observed.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

A few things:

1) Yes, I am deist, or more accurately, a Christ agnostic.

2) Yes, I realize there are many Gods, but it all falls under a unifying paranormal deity concept shared across the world for millenia. As to what god falls under that concept, well, take your pick. As for collective unconscious (etc.), well, that's a theory and one that is no more valid than a belief in the existence of God.

3) Adding God into science: You don't add God into scientific experimentation. How do you add an unporvable theory/idea? It's as impossible as proving God's existence. Instead, you let the idea of God as the alternative drive you to find further truth, instead of eliminating the possibility and you're left with assuming flawed and abused theories are facts because there happens to be no scientific alternative. God as an alternative pushes further discover and clarification. Removing him leads to scientific ignorance, IMO.

4) Evolutionary theory in it's totality is not fact. Sorry, it's not. Within a species is it fact? I'd say so. The problem and abuse comes when unscientific assumtions and extrapolations are made that shoe-horn evolution as fact across species, which is still unproven. Example: Bacteria. We know that aggressive use of anti-biotics leads to evolution within the species or even genus if you want to stretch it, making the bacteria resistant to treatment. The problem is that there is no proof that these mutations have mutated bacteria into something beyond bacteria. Maybe cross species evolution is impossible to prove. Okay... so is the existence of God. Pick your belief.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Yes, you can prove it. Do you mean actually watch it happen? Who has thousands or millions of years to sit around and watch? I used to have these arguments all the time back on Nintendo Next's forum (was that the name of the site? It's been so long) and you can't make someone learn who doesn't want to be educated.

Just so I'm clear and don't drive myself crazy, what exactly is it you believe? That evolution doesn't occur at all and that every species on this planet has always been as they are now? Or just humans? Or that life on this planet didn't start at the cellular level?

Across species? Dogs from wolves. Done. Please say you don't have a problem with that.

Ooh, TheGame's link is actually quite nice since hung up on terminology:

Evolution is a fact. Explanations for the fact(s):
- Darwin's explanation of evolution is approximately correct, but required refinement since it did not involve, for example, the modern notions of genes and DNA.
- The modern explanation of the fact of evolution, called the modern evolutionary synthesis, has greatly modified and extended the ideas of Darwin and is currently the most accepted theory of evolution.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

You and I have different ideas on what the word "prove" means. To me your statements shows that it can't be proven. As for waiting around, wouldn't you agree that we've put bacteria through the evolutionary equivalent of a few thousand or million years through decades of attacking it through micro-biological attempts at genocide? We've still seen nothing to show a jump. I'm not saying it's impossible or that evolution from species to species isn't possible or likely. I'm saying it's not proven, and by doing so keeping an open mind to possible alternatives, even those beyond the God theory/fact, however you would describe it. I refuse to box myself in.

When I read these "scientific" defintions of law theory and fact, all I see is a purposeful confusion of truth vs. possibility. The phrase "we're not sure" never seems to enter the coversation.

I believe that God is a legitimate alternative to the idea that life began by cosmic accident. I'm not saying God created life as part of this discussion, I'm saying the idea is at least considerable when faced with scientific inadequacies.

My only problem is that it's not proven. Is it true? Likely, but there is no evidence other than a comparison to support it. As you stated, it's likely impossible to prove, as is the existence of God. I remain open to possibilities.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Alrighty. First I'll just try to remember some examples off the top of my head and look for articles to back me up later when I have more time.

Darwin came up with his theory after visiting the Galapagos Islands. The animals and plants on each island were unique to their respective island. They closely resembled the animals on mainland America but were different species. Mostly notably the finches on each island all had different beak morphology that best suited the types of plants available to them. Goes along with the survival of the species, yada yada...ok just a deduction.

Australia and Madagascar also boast animals completely unique to their islands, evolving from a much earlier common ancestor after they broke off during the continental shift.

We have vast fossil records to back up evolution. You can see how the skeleton structure of species change through time. There are prehistoric animals that bridge the gap between fish and amphibians and amphibians and reptiles and reptiles and mammals.

You have dinosaurs (who have bird-like features already such as air sacs), and then you have dinosaurs with feathers, and then birds. All neatly lined up in sedimentary rock showing the progression.

And with modern animals you can compare how closely related their DNA is in addition to their bone morphology and fossils and place where they came from.

Will also add this pic because I always found whale evolution to be cool/weird:



Oh yeah! Vestigial organs! .....sorry all over the place. Haven't read up on any of this stuff in years.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Teuth, thanks for repeating my Intro to Bio class from 10th grade. :D

As part of this conversation, lets also consider the idea of infinite complexity. If it is true all life began as a single celled organism, that is certainly far more basic than we multi-celled organisms, but is it really simple? Even a single cell is a home to thousands of processes, actions and reactions. All of which controlled and cobbled together by DNA, a blueprint so complex that we still have yet to decode it with all our tehnological might.

So, if evolution started with a single cell, who designed the single cell, or as is often the argument was that just a happy accident? If it was, how can you consider an accident in scientific equations, experimentations and thought and not the equally nebulous idea of God?

As for the self-replicating amino acids, yes I understand we've been able to do so. We've been able to design, control and create the results. To use an term misused by those on both sides of the discusion, there is an "intelligent design". The same case could be made for God if the universe was his petri dish. To my knowledge we've yet to observe this take place as a natural occurence or seen that the replication would lead to anything more even in a controlled environment, but I'll admit to not reading much on the subject.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Heh, I was about to suggest you just reading a bio text book.

Yeah, I don't believe scientists ever created an actual one culled organism. There could be a multitude of variables from the Earth's heyday they didn't do right. Ah yup:

So keep on believing there was a God factor until they finally (if ever) figure it out.

Now I'm off to draw comics!

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

This is a common misunderstanding from many atheists about those that consider God as an alternative. My questions don't come from having not been educated on the matter, there are many biologists who who will point out the flaws in how we treat evolutionary theory, they come from formal and independent study and questioning things, and then treating unproven scientific assumptions with the same skepticism you would treat religious assumptions.

On a side note, besides a few college courses on biology, much of the exploration that led to to question assumed scientific fact has come from independent study. Also, I have not attended church since I was about 8 years old, but have looked to find my own way philosphically and spiritually as well. I think this has helped me remain objective and avoid indoctrination from either perspective.

I'll admit those were some very well written and reasoned guesses you quoted... but they still remain guesses.

Also, I don't remember ever stating as part of this discussion that I believed there was a God factor, I merely said I'm open to the possibility and I have presented the contrarian point of view. Normally I'd say keeping one's options open would be considered a reasonable scientific practice when nothing has yet to be proven. But it seems blinders are the rule of the day when it comes to what can and cannot be considered.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

*sigh* You were playing devil's advocate? Why ask what you already know? Wastes time. I only argued because I couldn't believe someone would disregard such evidence unless they weren't familiar with it.

All I do is look at evidence. I don't factor my beliefs into what has been proven, or try to disprove what can't be.

...well, you did force me to find that bit about the different methods they're currently undertaking to solve the origin of life. That was interesting I guess. :unsure:

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

You just contradicted yourself. :) Socratic debate may be the only true source of intellectual growth, and quite honestly, it's not something we see in modern science. Considering what can't be proven can drive one to new heights.

Anyway, I've never disregarded any of the evidence that has been presented, but I regard that evidence as well as the significant questions, answerable and not answerable, that such evidence presents. In the face of those unanswered questions I am willing to include the possibility of design.

The answer to the question of the origins of life should be "I don't know", but thats not how the scientific community treats it. They say "I don't know, but it's definitely not God".

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

I suppose you might be right. It's been forever since I actually argued (if poorly) a position. Though I can't really see the point of debating something that can't be proven. Things are, aren't, or unknown. If unknown you conduct experiments.

I'll agree with you on folks who outright say there's no God...or gods...or force...or whatever. It's something unproven, thus they shouldn't let their opinion on the matter impact their work. Like Dawkins...he just comes off as a prick. On the origin of life it should be "I don't know, but I have a hypothesis, and will test it."

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

I've heard similar interpretations on the subject. My point was to challenge Prof S' observation on the commonality of a divine creator among humans. You also have to realize what the Bible and Scripture says differs from what organized religion practices. I assure you Muslims and Catholics aren't as tolerant. I mean look at the Middle East, those guys have been blowing each other up for thousands of years.

Touche. I always overcomplicated gravity, I sometimes forget it is just the tendency for two objects with mass to pull towards each other.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

I believe in the holy ham sandwich...which sounds very yummy right about now. :D




So new question for everyone who believes in an afterlife....where does your conscious go when you die? Does it go somewhere, or is it dependent on body and you have some sort of external soul out there.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

No idea, but I sort of like the idea of non-local consciousness - that when we die our consciousness is released from our body and spreads infinitely across the universe. It sounds very harmonious to me.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

mmmm.... sacrilicious...:drool:

Well, I've had experiences with ghosts*, so I think at least some of them remain locally. To me, that is a terribly frightening prospect for my immortal consciousness/soul.

*I don't care to convince anyone else that they are real. Hell, if I didn't have the experiences I've had, with witnesses no less, I would think I was crazy too.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Do tell, how was the experience? Was it a friendly haunting?
You're not the first person I have heard say they have seen ghosts.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

My parent's house is haunted. It's been haunted by a woman at least for as long as I can remember. I've seen her 3 times in my life, and four of my friends ran into her once and those who were there will not come back.

First incident
- She's friendly, if disappearing for a long time is friendly, but gets "active" when people she doesn't know are in the house.
- Active: footsteps on the third floor and up and down the stairs, opening of closed doors on the third floor, full body apparitions.
- The incident: My parents were away and four of my friends were staying over to go to a golf outing the next day. Basically, the ghost was running laps up and down the stairs all night, depressed the end as if someone was climbing in, of the bed and one of my friends saw her in the doorway. Keep in mind I had not mentioned anything about her to them before any of this happened. They won't come back.

Second incident
- There is an upper body apparition of a colonial soldier that wanders the streets of my home town. Many have seen him, and I was lucky enough to spot him once turning into my driveway.

Third and only bad incident
- After my grandmother died, I lived at her house while my parents were in the midst of selling the property, and that took a long time. I had always felt "watched" in the house from the time I moved in, but didn't really think much of it. At moist I thought it was just another quiet haunting. Then doors started opening... and closing... by themselves while I watched. I don;t mean they creaked open, I mean the opened quickly and stopped on a dime, and sometimes slammed shut. When I started seeing my current wife is when things got bad. We had sex all over that house, and that's when things started to bang around randomly in the house and the cold spots started.
- The final straw was when I turn out the lights to go to bed after my then girlfriend left, and there were four LOUD bangs moving left to right, it felt like someone was next to my bed on the right hand side, and then a deafening SCREAM in my right ear, but the scream was more like radio static of a scream. I packed up my shit and left that night, and never came back. Even if it was my grandmother... FUCK THAT.

A little background about the area: I grew up near Chadds Ford, PA. It's a area near the Brandywine Battlefield (Revolutionary war), but there were battles all over that area including several bloody skirmishes in my home town of Thornbury Township. You can find random cannons in the woods if you look hard enough. This has always been my only explanation for the high occurence of hauntings in the area.

I currently live in Mount Penn, PA (near Reading) and my house is "clean", to quote the midget from Poltergeist. The first time I've ever lived in a house without a presence.

Re: What do you think happens after death?
 

Hmmm...interesting. If any of that stuff happened to me I'd freak the fuck out.

I've always thought these experiences are double-edged sword. On one hand you have ACTUAL PROOF of something phenomenal. That would certainly change how I feel about life. On the other hand you have to live with the fear of the encounters for the rest of your life.

I've always wanted to do some serious research on the documented Exorcism cases. It's hard though because much of it gets shot down hard by psychology: and much of it should. There's a huge difference between being possessed or having dementia or psychosis.