Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

That was a really good speech.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

And I wasn't responding just to you. There are other voices in this conversation than yours.

Ok, if you want to ignore the point and dismiss is s "loser talk", then we'll drop the subject. I can only argue facts, not derisive statements.

No, not at all.:mischief: If you don't want to recognize our own statements for what they are, or the fact ou continually try and put words in people's mouths and restat their arguments to your liking (a bad habit of yours), I can't continue with the discussion. I consider the point closed.

Now you're confusing the argument. No one mentioned 2000 in this entire discussion. We're discusing the reaction that people have to policy and why President Obama and the dems are frozen right now. The reason why Bush felt vindicated and felt empowered was his victory in 2004, as he looked at it as approval from the American people. I think it's safe to say that the dems and President Obama aren't feeling that confident about the American people's opinion of their policies, and therefore they are still trying to convince people. The 2000 election has nothing to do with this argument.

Quite frankly, President Bush doesn't either, but I let people sucker me into the conversation, changing the point from where it should be.

I won't be entertaining argument about Bush in the thread any longer, as it's off topic. Continue if you want to, but I see no reason to respond.

I never really said they were. You're the one that said they were strong, I said they were weak. Lets focus here, and keep our conversation to one restatement of opinion at a time.

I said Obama is losing the argument. The argument isn't necessarily one party to another, its a discussion amongst the American people. The American people can smell a rotten egg for what it is. By the way, I doubt conservatives/republicans would give the Republican party above a 30% approval right now. They have no leader, and their message is pretty much fractured into Social Conservative vs. Fiscal Conservative.

This actually makes Obama's failure to this point all the more telling.

No argument here. He likes to let the Congress do the dirty work for him, that way he never has to stamp his name on policy that might be deemed as unpopular or fails to get passed, and therefore avoids accountability which will be in his advantage for the future election. It;s called being "teflon". Nothing sticks to him. The problem is, the Congress is failing to make his argument for him, putting President Obama in a difficult situation.

This week's speech will be telling. If he actually lays down a specific agenda, the people's reaction will be far more telling and little guessing will need to be done by either of us as to who was more accurate.

No, I don't consider it playing ball at all. I consider actually entertaining ideas from the other side as playing ball. He and the dems refuse to do so. I mentioned specific items, with no response or really acknowledgement from the dems at all.

Not only that, but for all the bluster about being flexible on the public option, I have yet to see a bill without one, or without government run "non-profit co-ops", or more accurately... a public option.

I consider not entertaining any alernatives as not playing ball. And what you have in Congress is exactly what you see in our conversation: A stalemate with neither side budging because neither side reallt cares for their other's ideas or their version of compromise.

True, and thats the main reason why you'll never see tort reform from democrats, because of the money they get from lawyer groups to keep it from happening, just as many Republicans would never go for an option that would hurt Pharma.

Also, a lot of the dems that won in 2006 were "Blue Dogs" who ran on keeping spending down. The real problem is that no plan that has been devised, public option or not, has been deficit neutral. Instead, all accounts are it would blow it out of the water. Blue Dogs can't vote for that because it's against their entire campaign policy and they'll quickly lose their next election because they represent traditionally Republican areas.

And we're back to representatives not wanting to lose elections.

Well, this story is not over. Opinion polls are fickle. Lets see how far the dems are willing to take this. I can only make judgements based on whats going on right now. All this can change in a week or a year. Just because President Obama is failing now, doesn't mean he always will. Right now? It looks pretty bad and we're seeing that reflected in politial hesitancy and continued messages to the public instead of action. If the opinion tides change, you'll see action pretty quickly, IMO.

I think you're being a little rediculous in those terms for validation. Like I said, things can change, but with whats going on RIGHT NOW, I can't see how anyone can think it's President Obama's progressive base that is the main force hurting his poll numbers and pushing dissent.

I leave this conversation repeating the same challenge Ive repeated several times in this thread, and that you've largely ignored (the campaign funds argument is not legitimate as the dems don't get much money from orgs that are against the policies currently derailed): IF PRESIDENT OBAMA'S AND THE DEMS DIFFICULTIES ARE WITH THEIR PROGRESSIVE BASE, WHY WOULDN'T THEY PUSH THROUGH A PROGRESSIVE AGENDA?

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

From all accounts I'm sure it was... but then again the objections to the speech were never really with the speech itself, but everything surrounding it.

Once again, this was not that big of a deal, but I'm glad that they made the changes that they did regarding the essay and such. Hopefully it will keep a lot of these "Obama's a NAZI" overreactions to a minimum and people can return to arguments based on real policy.

EDIT: KG, thanks for posting it. It was a very good speech indeed.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

We can just stop talking about Bush. He's irrelevant now, and was not a good example for you to use. And with that, I'll reply to your point again.

Because he wants to hold onto the center.

Shocking answer huh? :)

I don't disagree with you when you say the center is important. I disagree when you say that the center is the main cause the drop in his approval rating.

The reason he won't push through a progressive agenda, on the healthcare front, is because democrats won't sign onto it. Democrats won't sign onto it because they get paid by the healthcare insurers.

People in the Center see that Obama is not forcing anything, and is open to discussion about healthcare reform. That's what wins over center votes, being open minded and using caution before making any major changes (even with having a majority that can't be stopped). People on the left, however, have a reason to be upset about Obama not being strong and pushing things through, which is why on those polls he was greeted with a negative reaction by them.

The reason Obama is staying consistant, and staying open to ideas from the conservatives (Even if you think its just an illusion).. Is because he still has support from the center when he works in this fashon. Just because he's losing progressive support when it comes to his approval rating, doesn't mean that they're going to suddenly vote for someone else.

That's why I say the actual elections will be what matters most. If the centrists are really put off by Obama, then its going to hurt the whole party and he's not going to have much of a chance of winning. If the left is put off by Obama, then its not going to affect things much.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Thank you.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

:)

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

I know I am late, but just wanted to add my two cents:

The President giving a speech on education to students shouldn't be a partisan issue, it should be a patriotic issue. Perhaps if the speech were on the liberal perspective of abortion or health care reform that would be inappropriate. But, if the speech is on the tenants of studying hard and receiving a solid education, there should be no issue.

It's really a question of why this is even an issue at all? My answer would be the deteriorating respect for the office of the Presidency, beginning with Bush. "He's not my President!" Etc. Etc.

Re: Obama to brainwash youths of America
 

Agreed. I think politics and public service have melded into a singular beast that confuses winning elections with serving the people.

I don't think anyone trusts their elected officials anymore, and they're more likely to believe crack-pot conspiracy theory than anything their representatives say. This isn't the fault of the people in totality, quite honestly, it's the fault of politicians not living up to their rhetoric and/or operating in their own best interests. This is also why I think you see the approval rating of President Obama fall, but not see the Republican's approval really improve. They're sick of everyone.

President Obama specifically, I think those that are against him refuse to believe a word that he says; they believe he speaks one way and acts another and therefore you have all this conspiracy theory surrounding him. While right wing talk shows and the like have some responsibility in fomenting this outrage, the biggest fault lies with the president himself because of his lack of clarity. He speaks in long, grand language about nebulous ideals, but he rarely takes a specific stand on anything or backs specific legislation as being something he really supports. He is VERY hands off when it comes to lawmaking, an area that is a big weakness of his when it comes to confusing and universally impactful subjects such as government run healthcare. America is looking for a leader on this subject, and to date President Obama hasn't filled that need, mainly because I think he fears the reprocussions of taking a stand on something so volitile.

Also, he is very good at working the media. Example: Van Jones resigned at midnight over the labor day weekend, an obvious attempt to make the issue go away. This avoidance of direct answers is building the same distrust on the right that Bush's avoidance of WMD clarity did on the left (and lets keep the comparison's to that alone). If President Obama or Gibbs would simply answer questions regardling Jones clearly and honestly, there would not be so much theory surrounding the entire issue. It's bad when Glenn Beck gets an advisor fired, which gives him more credibility with the American people as being more than just a quack, and now that the "resignation" was done literally in the cover of night it gives Glenn even more to rant about! This is what I talk about when I say this adminsitration is making one fumble after another. It's almost like they want the reaction they're getting.

The biggest problem with President Obama right now is that we know he gives great speeches and has wonderful ideals, but no one really knows who he is or specifically how he believes he can fix the issues he believes are hurting us as a nation. In the absence of clarity, his supporters have given him blind trust and his detractors oppose him with blind hate, IMO. This is why MY criticisms tend to concentrate on the specific actions he has taken and/or approved, because that is the only thing we can really judge him on.

His speech on Healthcare will hopefully clear some of this up, as it is supposed to outline HIS plan and ideas on the subject, and not just broad strokes.