Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

mmmm yeah mine probably would have been the same... And you can't honestly say that it wouldn't have... honestly... :sneaky:

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

You're absolutely right, these questions do need to be asked. Just like the racism question should be asked.

It's just that all I hear is people pointing fingers on the news now. While I think it's right to ask questions, I think it's also right to sit back for a moment and remember that this is a major disaster, and you cannot prepare for everything that will be needed in a disaster like you can with hindsight. It's a disaster, that's the nature of it.

Also remember that the day after Katrina hit, EVERYONE thought New Orleans had just barely avoided the disaster. "Big Easy Breathes Big Sigh of Relief" is only one actual headline of many on Tuesday the day after. On Tuesday Mississippi was by far the worst off. So you have to imagine the gov't thinking, hey, New Orleans is fine let's go help Mississippi. Then by the time they realize Nola needs help, they're moving towards Miss. and the streets in Nola are completely flooded making it difficult to get help in and power and water are down and the levee breaks and it becomes a big and now a surprise disaster. I've already made all these points, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

I think people dying on the streets like this is unacceptable. But the vast majority did make it out of New Orleans safe, and now Americans are being extremely generous to help them in any way possible. Let's hope Katrina is a lesson learned for the gov't, and I think asking questions about the response will help make sure of that.

And like DeathsHand, yeah, maybe you can't but I can honestly say it would be the same response for me. Thank you for not assuming others are racist.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

I'm not sure how true this is, because I didn't watch the news story on it, I just heard that it was IN the news...



But Vancouver resuce teams were sent down there, and then they were sent back because someone in New Orleans said they "werent needed".


If you have rioting, mass evacuations, dead people in the streets, shouldnt you accept all the help you can have? Why send people back?

**** that, bring more people in. Have an army of rescue people helping.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

I read that they saved like 30 people...

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

I think the response had more to do with money than color. I really think we live in a nearly colorless society now, but not a classless society. We are more culturally bigotted than racially bigoted. (I have no idea how to spell biggotted so I'm trying several versions :D). If you were walking down the street at night and saw a group of young black males dressed in hip-hop (man, I feel white just saying that) clothing, would you get nervous? Now, put them in Armani suits. See my point?

I believe that the response was slow do to the fact that the destruction did not hit the national GDP very hard. I think in running a government, those who run it often have to work in abstractions, and that can lead to a large human cost if you don't catch yourself in times of need. The human and material cost of 9/11 had a dramatic effect on our countries economy, and the strength of any nation lies in its economy. I believe that is why the response was so quick and strong in that case. Add to that the "Pearl Harbor" effect, and you have a truly national crisis.

Meanwhile in New Orleans, those that ran the businesses and had control of the monies involved were the ones that escaped. Therefore the toll that the ecomy took was pretty much material alone and unavoidable. The ones that were keft behind are more the "replaceable" working masses, or even those dependent on the government and who take more than they give to the economy.

If saving as many of those left behind as possible would have pushed the stock market to new heights or would have kept gas prices down, the entire fleet of Greyhound busses would have been commadeered (yet anither word I can't spell) the next day. It's just a sad fact that because of America's previous fascination with racism, those that fall in the economically expendable category in major cities (not nationally, though) tend to be minorities. The white trash in tornado allet have to deal with the same thing.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

So what exactly do you want? I'm confused. On the one hand, you're saying that it's a disaster and it couldn't have been totally prepared for and that's the nature of the beast. On the other hand, you're saying the deaths are unacceptable and that you hope the government learns a lesson. What would you have us do exactly? What do you expect to happen after all the questions are asked? How is the government going to learn a lesson unless somebody is held accountable? It seems to me that you would like the government to sit down and collectively say, "Sorry. We messed that one up. We'll do better next time." The only other way I can interpret your post is that you are trying to double talk by saying that we should "ask questions" but also realize that this is a natural disaster, as if that means that nobody screwed up and got thousands of humans killed. I'd rather not assume the worst about your post, though. Everybody knows this was an act of nature. I don't understand why you keep trying to insist on that point as if it makes any difference.

It seems to me that you are somehow offended by blame being cast. Sorry, but when somebody screws up, he or she has to be made responsible for it. And in this case, there is no doubt that somebody did screw up. Politicians are now busily trying to throw the blame away from themselves, and that's bad. But that doesn't mean every finger pointed is wrong. A lot of people have died unnecessarily. That is beyond doubt. You can say that nobody could have been prepared for this situation and recite more excuses all you want, but the fact of the matter is we pay a lot of good money for our government to be prepared for every contingency. We ought to demand the very best preparation, planning and organization possible, and I find it hard to believe that this was present with Hurricane Katrina, particularly with an Arabian horse trader running FEMA. This is the government that says it has plans to take care of us (or at least minimalize casualties) in case of a catastrophic biological attack.

But Hurricane Katrina was an act of nature. It wasn't forecast far enough ahead of time to get every last person out of the city. It was a bit unpredictable.

Ok, fine. Now what?

Question: my mom is an Asian woman. Do you think she's taller than you or shorter than you? Do you think she speaks English perfectly? Do you think she's more likely to be an actress by profession or a doctor? Do you think she was an avid surfer in her youth?

Everybody notices race (except maybe the blind). I could even pull studies to show that if you wanted. The first thing anybody notices about somebody else is their ethnic background (or what they think it is). When shown portraits and asked to pick words or describe feelings, people choose differently depending on the race of the person they see in the portrait and for no other reason. It just seems hard-wired into us. I choose to acknowledge the fact that I do this and deal with it honestly. Frankly, I think anybody who pretends they are totally colorblind is just in denial.

I'm not saying that we all saw black people in New Orleans and immediately thought, "Oh, well they're black so they don't matter." I'm not saying that any of us care less just because the faces we see are of a certain color. I'm not even saying that any of us literate, middle-class, relatively well-educated people talking here on this message board would react less urgently if we had seen white people dying in the streets. But deep down, something does register differently, and it's fair to ask whether that really does affect the national response because really, we aren't going to know unless a few thousand white people really do get killed in a natural disaster. It's been proven, unfortunately. And even if you think you really are so enlightened and better than all the random subjects in studies, how confident are you that every single government official involved in the relief effort is the same way?

I say let's just be honest. We all make stereotypes. It's our brain's way of working with incomplete information, and psychologists actually think that for the most part, we wouldn't function very well without it. All the same, trying to deny what's going on in our heads isn't going to help anything. I'll bet you've been resisting this whole line of argument the entire time, but here's the question you should be asking yourself: is that absolutely, completely because you think I'm spouting a load of hogwash or is it because if it really is true, you wouldn't feel so good about yourself?

Now make them white peolpe dressed in hip hop clothing. Do you feel just as nervous about them?

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Late at night, in the same situation? Hell yes, Mr. Fatty McManboobs (since you refuse to all me by my name, I'll be calling you anything I want from here on out. This should be fun. :D).

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

And if they were Asians? Sorry, but as someone who gets stereotyped all the time, I find that a bit hard to believe. It's not that I'm even bothered by it or anything. But I see it there all the same, and it's a basic fact of life.

And in any case, doesn't your "I feel so white saying that" bit kind of belie your claim to colorblindness?

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Well, water draining has begun...time to wait to see just how bad it is under all that water

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

There, that's exactly what I want. Just a reminder to each person before they go on a witchhunt blaming everyone. You're reading too much into what I'm saying. All I want is patience and prudence and understanding of the magnitude of the disaster. You say that no one is arguing the fact that it was a natural disaster, but I think people seem to forget that fact.

On another note, I'd like to see how much the TV people and politicians who are throwing all the blame around have done to help the evacuees.



Well the split-second reaction to the appearance of someone is not what I thought you meant, so I guess we misunderstood each other. I've already said that race in this situation is a valid topic, considering the disproportionate amount of blacks to other races.

I think, though, that if we would help and volunteer and give just as much as if they were white, then what difference does the "deep down" region matter? It seems you're talking about the unsconscious mind vs. the conscious mind, which for me wouldn't make any actual difference in how I helped. I personally don't think that it took George Bush's conscious mind three days to click in and say, hey, these are people, too. Maybe it did, I don't know, but I don't think so. And that goes for everyone who was helping.

If you disagree fine. I'm not trying to argue but I guess when you're on a message board that's the only way it comes out. I was only angry because I took personal offense to what I thought you were saying that I would have volunteered more and given more money or whatever if they were white.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Sorry for the double-post. Buuut..

Looks like we're not the only ones having this discussion, Xantar.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4217024.stm

The comments after the story are what I'm talking about. Many of the people are leaving very similar comments to your posts.

I thought it was interesting to see that this discussion is happening all over the world.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

We had a huge discussion about this exact same issue in my political science class. Tempers flared, hearts were broken.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Same... I mean of course I'm gonna notice someone is black, asian, or whatever... It's just one of their features... Probably the most obvious one at first glance... But to me it's not really any different than their hair color, height, weight, whatever...

But you (Xantar) seemed to be implying that my reaction would be different if it was a bunch of white people suffering, which I took to mean that I would for some reason be more upset and donate more money or something because they are "my people"...

As for Stereotypes... That's an issue that deals with more than just race... And while they may be unfair in many instances, there is always some truth to them... Do I think your mom would be shorter than me because she's an asian woman? Well, considering I'm 6'1 or 2", and most asian people (or women for that matter) I've met have been shorter than me, if I were betting I'd put my money on yes... Are all asians or women shorter than me? Of course not... If I met your mom and you hadn't mentioned a thing about the whole 'short asian' issue, would I give two hoots? I doubt it...

Also, wether I'm afraid of whites, blacks, or asians in hip-hop clothing would, to me, have more to do with where I am...

I pass people like that of all kinds of colors here in Arlington and think nothing of it (except that they look friggin goofy)... If I was say, at a club in a run-down area of DC at night and people like that passed me, then yes I'd probably feel a bit nervous (especially so if they were paying extra attention by glaring at me, as some of them do)... But at the same time, if I was saaaay in the Georgetown area of DC, I'd probably think nothing of it...

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

If it were Asians, and they were dressed in hip-hop clothing late at night, I would syill be nervous about it. Yes, I would.

And there is a difference between recognizing racial differences and the cultural differences that can come with it, and believing in a colorblind society. I was referring to the days that were only 50 years ago (maybe less) when no matter what kind of car or suit a black man was wearing, he would still be treated like trash. I don't think that happens very often anymore. Ok, maybe in Alabama, hence my "nearly" qualification ;). But I think we have come to the point where the cultural differences that have resulted from our previous years extreme racism have more of a effect on our reactions to race, than the color of people's skin.

Afterall, stereotyping isn't just afflicted to minortities. If you see a white guy with a mullet and a Dale Earnhart Jr. T-shirt, you won't think that they are a doctor, will you? The human brain has a need to stereotype, anyway. Its called building social schemas. Stereotypes will always exist, because doing so is a natural function. The human brain simply cannot handle analyzing every person you've ever met on a person by person basis. I just believe that for the most part our schemas have moved beyond the simple category of race, and have adjusted to make allowances for class.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

I'm sorry, but I have to ask again: so what? If everybody were to recognize and acknowledge that Katrina was a natural disaster, what exactly do you expect to happen? You haven't answered that question. What specifically do you expect would be different? Would fewer people be sacked? Would that be fair? Would we be better prepared for, let's say, a tsunami hitting Baltimore as a result of acknowledging somehow in the back of our heads that this was not human made? What is supposed to be the result of your reminder? Patience and prudence and understanding? Please explain to me precisely what that means.

I just don't see where this is all supposed to be leading. Even supposing that we've all somehow forgotten that Katrina was a natural hurricane, that's not the reason why there is a lot of false finger pointing going on. That's merely because a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats are covering their asses. What does the fact that Katrina was natural have to do with that? It's like saying that if some joints fail on a rollercoaster causing it to derail and kill dozens of people, we should all step back and remember that they were killed by the laws of physics.

In the end, if the system works and all goes well, the people who screwed up will be held responsible and fired (and probably have their public reputations torn to shreds). I can't see that your point will make any difference to that one way or another except perhaps to allow some people to duck responsibility and claim, "Well, it's not MY fault! Nature did it!" At best, your repeated posts here haven't struck me as anything more than meaningless platitudes and will continue to do so.

I never said that Bush himself was racist. I'm only suggesting that if there's a subconscious reaction and the dozens upon hundreds of people in the government involved in disaster relief all have it, could that possibly, maybe, change something about the response?

In any case, you still have every right to be offended seeing as I'm calling your posts useless.

Oh, I have no doubt that there's a lot of classism going on in our society. I just don't think that necessarily excludes racism as well. Why can't there be both? Surely we do a lot better now than we do fifty years ago, but just because we don't see very many lynchings these days doesn't mean racism is all gone. If you really need evidence, though, go read up on some stories about Middle Eastern taxi cab drivers after 9/11.

And let me be clear, I don't mean to say that racism is necessarily oppressing minorities exclusively and in all ways. And I also happen to think that our stereotyping and schemas work out ok among those of us lucky enough to have a strong education and lots of exposure to all kinds of different people.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really apply to the majority of Americans.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Xantar, you obviously have a lot of anger (made clear by that last comment) and aren't even discussing anymore, in my opinion. I'm not trying to have an argument but you continue to keep one going. Maybe I'm not helping either, but I thought I made it clear. I thought I was making what I was trying to say simpler by saying to have patience and understanding, but I guess you still don't get it or I'm not clear enough.

Either way, I'm not going to argue with you.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Too late....

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Oh, I understand it perfectly, and my blood pressure is just fine and normal. I understand that you are urging patience and prudence. What I don't understand is how that makes any difference whatsoever. All you've been doing is repeating yourself and attempting to make your point "simpler," but that was never the problem. In my mind, you're failing to move the discussion forward because, I don't know, you're afraid of argument or something.

Just because I said you were pointless doesn't mean I'm mad. If you want to make me mad, I suppose patronizing me by implying that I'm not thinking straight because of my emotions and that I need to have your point said "simpler" in order to get it will be a good start. Really, you ought not to read more into my posts than exactly what is there because as I'm sure you know, bare-bones text doesn't communicate all that well.

Are my questions really that hard to answer? I can think of a few answers to them myself. Something like, maybe, "We ought to get relief to the victims first and worry about who's to blame later when the facts are clear. Right now, we don't even know the death toll." I don't know that I would have agreed with it, but it's at least something other than repeating the word "patience" over and over again. How much patience do you want? Here's a possible answer: "Enough patience to let a bipartisan commission investigate the events even though that might take a year. It worked out for 9/11."

I've been pressing you because all I wanted was a clear answer on something like that, and I honestly thought you could give me one. Surely you had some real ideas about what having patience would look like. Otherwise, again, what's the point of repeating it? I might as well get up on a box and shout to everybody, "Let's have intelligence! I urge us to be smart!" That simply isn't going to get us anywhere.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

I thought I provided more than enough reasons for both sides of the discussion with that link to the BBC article. I'm sorry to patronize you. I shouldn't have even started discussing with you about it because I never meant to have an argument, so it's my fault. You're right, I'm afraid of an argument--on a message board. I get no satisfaction out of it.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

Maybe I was too strong in my verbage of my opinion. Let me boil it down for you:

If you were to place a black man next to a white man next to a asian man, and they were naked and similar in most physical ways, you would have different stereotypes that you would place on each one, but I don't believe that those strereotypes would be very strong (unless you were raised in an malignantly racist family). The way that these men then choose to dress and behave will act as either a magnifying factor or an overriding factor to those original stereotypes.

So yes, racism still exists, but I believe that culture has far overtaken race and is much more prevalent.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

I heard on the news that theres around 150 drains in the city of New Orleans, and only 23 were draining water out of the city. :(


i'm very doubtful on whether or not New Orleans will ever be the same city again.

Re: Hurricane Katrina
 

I can't read Krypton's last post, page five isn't showing.... I wonder if this will help..