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^ Is that system for how money is distributed still in place?
Which also goes back to your earlier point about money not being an issue. In many countries there are state-funded free colleges. That makes a huuuuuge difference. Both my parents were from working class families and the only way my mother was able to go to college was because NYC's were free at the time (which isn't the case now). (My father's college was paid for by the Air Force.) There's also the poor salary of teachers, or rather they go where the pay is better. For example I know one can make more teaching on Long Island than here in the city. You might find this interesting. I went to this middle school which I only just learned was founded as a court-ordered experiment in racial integration. And there's that whole deal with Texas dictating what goes into the country's text books which is messed up on a number of levels (and was discussed in an earlier thread). We can go into the Christian right hijacking science as well, so even a child who wants to learn might be getting the wrong information. There are a ton of other factors too which could easily be improved (and would of course require more money), such as longer school days, or shorter vacations (kids forget so much over the summer break). There was an article about some Korean school in the NYTimes maybe a year or two ago. They spent about 12 hours at school 6 days a week. Now that's what I'm talking about. |
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Most of what you describe is the result one the fatal flaw in the public school system: There is no choice. If you live in a certain district, your children go to a certain school. If you want options, you have to pay above what you are already paying in school taxes. More often you have to move to get out of them, and in the most poor areas (the areas that need choice the most) this is not a real possibility. The reality of no school choice affects the economy as well. A bad school poisons the real estate market around it, which poisons the businesses in the community, etc. There is not a problem with the system. The system is the problem. |
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Except there is a choice. At least there is here in NYC. I would hope it's the case in other urban areas as well. Though I can't see it working elsewhere where things are more spread out.
Basically you have your zoned high school, with access to pretty much every other public school in NYC depending on your grades and/or a specialty test. So if you're poor and live in a lousy neighborhood you can still go to your school of choice or at least one a bit better than what you might be stuck with. A lot of normal zoned schools offer advanced programs too so that if you're a good student you can get a better education than the average curriculum of that school. You can also easily transfer to another as I did if you aren't satisfied where you first end up. Believe Earl did as well. So there are actually a ton of opportunities to move around. No one is stuck unless they're apathetic. So high schools are not the problem. Not sure if one is stuck at their junior/middle school or if the one I went to was the only exception. I see that being a problem, yes. Also since I've been in school, a lot more specialty schools (not vocational but rather an average school with a perk such as a great music program) have cropped up so that students with just average grades can get something more out of school than if they went to their zoned. It would be interesting to see the numbers for this all this stuff. It might be a good model for more of the country to adopt. Believe this is pretty much how the school system works in Japan. Think they takes tests to determine what middle school they go to as well. |
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So what do you do if your parents work in the morning and can't take you to your school of choice?
School buses can only take you to the school in your district that you're supposed to go to. I think a decent system would be to introduce government given vouchers for an all private school system, but again, how do you go about making sure every child has a fair chance to actually GET to the school? |
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Public transportation. Students are given a metrocard so they can travel for free on weekdays. For middle school those furthest away were picked up by school bus (I'm not aware of the district limitations) and those closer took public transportation. Actually, I know one or a couple of the specialized science high schools had school buses. Not sure what the deal was with that. But either way, the commute between the furthest points away from each other in the city are about two hours by public transportation. I actually didn't go to a school I got into at first because I didn't want to commute so far away. I ended up going a year later and it was a pain to get to, but quite doable. Got a lot of reading done on the train.
Again, I have no idea how this system would work in a more spread out area. Either your parents take you or a more complicated busing system is put into place. |
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Yeah, most places do not have public transportation.
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You are both thinking about this from the prism that education must be centrally controlled.
The internet has allowed amazing things to be done with home schooling and community schooling. Giant schools that treat students like cattle are part of the issue. Part of the solution also needs to be removing the stigma that surround vocational school. College really isn't for everyone. Actually, since most people go to college and treat it like a vocational school, I'd say its not for MOST people. Our entire educational system is locked in old thinking and idealistic fantasy, not pragmatism or results. |
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Honestly I think the saddest part has been reading the International reaction. Half of the opinions I've seen coming from the UK have been batshit crazy ramblings about Bin Laden already being dead.
It seems like there's a large demographic in the international community that jumps on any sensational news slant that prescribes to their preformulated assumption that America is a bunch of corrupt, capricious cowboys. |
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I got a chuckle out of Arctic Texas. And speaking of Texas:
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If you let parents and kids choose which school to go to, the good schools would be crowded and children with parents who didn't care or don't have the means to send them to the better school would be unfairly left out. I don't think home schooling is really a great option. School is as much about the social growth of people as it is the academic growth, and if home schooling was too acceptable and a lot of people were doing it I think you would also see a lot of slacker parents who don't teach their kids everything they need to know. As for vocational schools, yeah. College isn't for everyone. Personally I think college is scam that we all pay too much money for. Most degrees aren't worth anything. Teens are indoctrinated into the mindset that they should major in something they "love" with no regard for their future. You're paying a crap ton of money to a University so that you can ultimately get a degree that is supposed to help you get a decent job. Instead people pay Universities a crap ton of money to get a degree that won't help them with much of anything, and once they graduate they don't really know what to do with themselves because the only thing they've done their whole lives is go back to school. So what do they do? "Eh, I guess I'll just go for my Masters." This decision is made with seemingly no forethought put into what good that masters degree will actually do them in the long run. Instead they sink further and further into debt because of how easy it is to get loans to pay for something so expensive you'll be working for decades to pay it off. College has me pretty jaded. I feel extremely fortunate that I got a scholarship and majored in something that allowed me to get a good job. I have a friend who was majoring in the same thing I was, dropped out after 2 years in, and is now making as much money as I do doing the same job I do. If I had actually payed for my college I'd be even more annoyed than I am at the idea I potentially wasted 4 years doing homework. I think we should tell teens and future college students to major in something they -like-, not necessarily love, that has real world applications. If you absolutely adore philosophy and can't imagine a life where you don't "do" philosophy, that's fine. Go to the library and check out books on philosophy. Read and study philosophy to your hearts desire. You don't need to pay a University an insane amount of money so that you can be bored in a classroom while a professor who doesn't really care about teaching drones on word-for-word on the same things you could have just read yourself. |
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Anyways - seriously - I was obviously pretty excited that he's dead. Now, i didn't shout any type of 'hooray', or show any type of outward excitement like that. But internally, it's good to know that he isn't breathing anymore. I put this on par with the death of Hitler. Obviously they did very different things, in a relatively similar manner - but the death of each is sort of the nail in the coffin. I personally don't feel right celebrating the death of another human being, because I personally feel that nomatter what someone has done, nomatter how bad - they should have to live with the consequences, not die with them. I'd personally have rather seen Osama (And Saddam, for that matter), live the rest of their lives in jail. Solitary confinement, even. Death is what they expect. Death is what they prepare for. They know if they get captured, they will most likely die. They prepare for this. They warp their idea of their faith to reflect this. Keeping them alive would defy them of what they believe in. That is what I would have wished for him. Personally. Anyways, to all the people who are creaming their pants with the "Why was he buried so fast" etc. Obviously his body was dumped so fast and anonymously so that nobody could recover the body and construct some type of shrine. What would you rather they do with the body? Put it in the Smithsonian as "The person who was held accountable for the death of thousands of people, and a global war"? Anyways. Rot. I hope Osama Bin Laden's afterlife is nothing like he imagined. |
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I'd urge you to look a little more deeply into modern home schooling. There are a lot of great things going on right now, and the internet has been a huge benefit. Also, after seeing how charter schools basically saved education in New Orleans after Katrina, I'm a big fan of them as well. They are private institutions that use public funds and add a lot of choice and get great results. |
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This has gone kind of viral on facebook and twitter.
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It is a MLK quote, the part in quotes anyways.
It started off as I have it written there but as it went viral it was all put together as one quote. |
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Hey - let's stop the hate on Texas now ... Austin is a progressive city. It's the Berkeley and Madison of the South.
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Yeah I did find that the New Yorkers I've met in particular are some of the most automatically prejudice against Texans people I've met. Not all of course, but it did amaze me how many supposedly open-minded, non-judgmental people immediately assume you're a redneck racist asshole if you're from Texas. Broaden your horizons a bit before you immediately judge. I have found there are just about as many prejudice, racist assholes (including such people) everywhere you go.
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Being in one city for only one night at times can give you weird perspective. I detested L.A after our first visit because I had a horrible experience there, but then we spent a month there and had a much better time. I definitely used to pass judgement on all cities based on one night (and honestly, more or less the one block near the venue, or how well the show went!)... But yeah, I understand that's pretty foolish now. Didn't mean to dismiss the rest of Texas, I've just spent the equivalent of at least a month over the length of my life in Austin, so I know it the best. All I know from West Texas is weird rest stops, though. Oh, and I refuse to believe that Ohio doesn't suck. :p |
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Before I tackle individual posts, I thought I would post these two videos on education:
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I don't want to get too deeply into it, but here are my thoughts on college and the current school system. In bullet point/list form for easy consumption.
-Job/Work experience has been devalued by the perpetuated belief (which comes from the academic world) that you _NEED_ a college degree to be useful in the work environment -The belief that Intelligence = "Good Grades/Success in school" has also been falsely perpetuated by the current academic world. Standardized tests, GPA, success in school = bullshit for being the "end all be all" determinant of intelligence. -You should go to college because you are passionate about learning. This is where I disagree with the popular Internet sentiments. If you want to get a philosophy degree, or art degree, or music degree, then do it! This belief that only engineering degrees or business degrees are useful is total bullshit. -Happiness is not measured by how much money you make. Many happy people went to college and got philosophy or art degrees. Likewise, success is not measured by your engineering degree. Look at most business tycoons, millionaires, entrepreneurs, or genius-to-CEO types. Most of them are college dropouts, didn't go to college, or took alternative education paths. -The Administrators and Teachers in the world of academia KNOW THAT DEGREES DO NOT EQUAL JOBS. Colleges NEED to recruit kids. High school kids pay for colleges to fund research. It is no coincidence that colleges open their doors to just about anyone these days. -Most people SHOULD NOT GO TO COLLEGE -At one point, jobs like: cooking, interior design, and other craft jobs were highly valued without the attached BA or MA or whatever -The market is flooded with people with college degrees, this is a problem. -Academia is largely full of itself. -It is hugely unfair to ask an 18 year old to map out their life, their passion, and their future career. Most 18 year olds should work for a few years, get some life experience, and then decide if they want to go to college. High schools push kids to pick a college because it is the expectation...this relationship is symbiotic. I believe that people who run the colleges encourage policy or advocacy that perpetuates the belief that high schools need to push kids into college. The net result is a cycle driven largely by money. I regret going to college at 18. I'm glad I did in the long run, and I think ultimately I would have decided to attend, but I could have gained some valuable life experience working for 2 years instead of failing out of and hating engineering. I would guess-timate that about 3 out of 4 of my friends ended up altering their path during college. I would guess that about 2 out of 4 of my friends made DRAMATIC life changes. By dramatic I mean: dropping out of college, doing a total major change, doing a total college change. That's like....75% of the people I know altered their course... 50% did so dramatically I would also say that a lot of my friends who are graduating are in the position of: "I have a degree...now what the fuck do I do." I happen to be in that boat too, with a largely useless (due to flooded market) psychology degree. Fortunately, I am passionate about psychology, and am passionate enough about what I learned in college to feel like I got something meaningful out of my education. I was also lucky enough to work at two real jobs during my college years, so I have real world work experience. Instead of rushing off to the next degree mill, I am taking a year or two off to work and research graduate school. I intend to pursue a masters and possibly a PhD, but right now I am a bit burned out and want to get some more work experience, save some money, and enjoy being out of academia for a bit. By fall of 2012 I plan to be applying for grad school, but in the meantime I am applying the brakes. This is turning into one of my most pointless, rambling posts yet...but I think the points I want to hit home are: -We have devalued non-college jobs and non-college success -College is not for everyone and academia is exploiting this -The current structure for education has created degree mills, which in turn has devalued the arts I, personally, would never tell someone who is very passionate about philosophy or art to avoid college. The reality is that some of the brightest, most interesting, and most seasoned people reside within academia. I have met some professors who have life-wisdom as well as field experience that is unparalleled. Books can certainly be enlightening, but your local library cannot rival the life story's or the experience of a seasoned faculty member. There was a point in time where it was understood that you go to college to get a degree because you are interested in learning more about that field of study. Nowadays people are no longer interested in learning, the new belief is that you get a degree because a degree=jobs. This is why we see a devaluing of the arts. Philosophy can be just as hard as engineering or physics, but the average Joe-slacker will have a much easier time doing minimal work in philosophy than engineering. This is just due to the nature of the redundancy checks built into the respective degrees. Engineering at face-value is much harder than philosophy. To say that someone who majored in philosophy could not invest as much time and work as someone who majored in engineering is fallacious. At any rate, I make sleep now. |
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But it infuriates me when someone who goes to college, gets their degree, ends up getting a good job, then ends up telling everyone that college is worthless for most people and that you probably shouldn't go. What??? Why is it you feel you can successfully navigate the system of going to college at age 18 and come out better on the other side, but that most people can not? In this market, like it or not, a college degree is required for most decent paying jobs. Not all, I have personally seen many good ones that don't. But the vast majority do. And sure, you could be the next college drop-out billionaire. You could also be the next Michael Jordan. But I wouldn't bet on it. I find it dangerous to tell high school kids that college is unnecessary, only to have them find out in five years time that not having a degree blocks tons of doors, and at which point it is likely FAR more difficult to go start college for any number of reasons (debt, marriage, kids, etc.). Give them the same chance you had to go to college when it is logistically easiest, and then let them figure it out just like you did whether it is right for them. If you want to change the system, fine, but don't ask high school kids to take the brunt of the risk to change the system for you. |
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What if high school kids genuinely don't want to go to college, and we push them into it. I mean, all I am saying is their are two sides to this coin. But unfortunately you are right...a lot of jobs require college degrees. I blame part of this partially on academia. I believe many people in a hiring position use a college degree as a redundancy check or as a quick screening method. Some jobs do require a degree though: doctors, engineers, etc. I know I said in my previous post that most people should not go to college. Let me amend that by saying: most people should not rush to make the decision to run to college. Most people should let it stew for a year or two. I'm living proof of that. In my experience high schools push a one-sided view: college or failure. High schools should be more open-minded and offer multiple paths and options to youth. And this is where we get into total education reform. Starting at the bottom, instead of having mandatory math and science classes, we could let people pursue natural interests early on. If the education system was reformed kids might know earlier on what they want to do instead of taking "crash course in college 101" at age 18 because they were stuck in a shitty system that essentially pigeon-holes everyone into a set of narrow expectations and tells them what makes them smart or stupid. |
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I think that's the far better option then finding out later you need a degree, but that's it's much harder to go back and get one because you've now established your life. |
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Talk to most HR professionals and ask them about how they view college degrees, and most would answer "It shows that you can start something and finish it." I'm still paying back school loans for THAT? The government gave me tax-payer subsidized grants for THAT? I could have shown that with an internship or apprenticeship and saved about $100,000. And the sad fact is that no one can understand this until after they graduate and enter the work force because the ONLY narrative offered in grade-school is "YOU MUST GO TO COLLEGE OR YOU ARE A FAILURE." That is a lie, and an insidious one. |
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And why is an urban environment bad exactly? All of NYC is an urban environment. I've never been to Chicago so perhaps everything is more segregated there? It seems like you have a pretty specific view of city life. It seem to me like a poor community would be much worse off in a more suburban/rural area where their options are limited and there's only one or two schools to a town. Of course it depends on the teacher more than anything, but the better ones are drawn to better funded schools. I'm looking at ways at fixing the school system. You can't make a kid's father go back home or remove drugs from the streets. You need to think about what you can change. Quote:
So wrong...so very very wrong. Art school is the most useless worthless thing you could possibly spend time and money on. I wish I stayed at my first college and just got a decent education and the full college experience . My BFA will never help in getting me an art related job. It'll be more helpful getting anything else, but art ones are purely based on your work. I taught myself more since I graduated with books and instructional videos (so much better being able to hand pick any teacher you want instead of being stuck with whatever the school happens to have) than I ever learned at school. I wasn't prepared in the slightest for the real world upon graduation. Should have dropped out but I felt like I needed the degree...and if I ever decide to do something other than art....I have my art degree for that. That's messed up. Prof, I would be curious to hear how you imagine home-schooling through internet classes. Most students don't have the drive to learn on their own without adult supervision, and the fear of punishment and failure, unless they are truly passionate about a particular subject. And how young are you talking? |
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Home schooling, charter schools, smaller/community based and controlled public schools, etc. ALL need to be considered as part of a comprehensive solution. They offer increase opportunity and in most cases, increase educational choice to the family, to help our students reach proficiency. And none of this can happen until the money follows the STUDENT and not the SCHOOL. Most funds are currently pushed to the schools, so there really little in the way of finding real options (I do not believe shuffling a student from one centrally controlled school to another is choice). These funds need to be allocated per student, and allow them to be applied to choice of school for each family, whether it is a home school, charter school, or already established public school (which will benefit greatly from a reduction in student population). |
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I don't have a "pretty specific" view of city life...I have a view of city life since I live in Chicago. I can't generalize to other cities, but I know Chicago is among the worst in the nation if not the worst in terms of public schools. I know Detroit and Minneapolis are right behind (I'm guessing with St. Louis and Indianapolis and all the other main sites that I read about for Teach for America, a program which I no longer look all that positively on), and these are just cities...a lot of these problems extend to rural areas. I can find more specific articles and studies and I will, but I encourage you to google around. I think your view does not generalize as easily as you think. |
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I think the above issue also has to do with an increase in the number of harmful exposures, such as lead, mercury, and noise pollution, in an urban environment as well. Reference this study:
- Bridge Apartment Study, NYC, 1973 - Income restrictions - All children attended same school - Measures: reading test, auditory word discrimination - Control for: parental education, # of siblings - Floor of residence correlated with scores http://htcexperiments.files.wordpres...en_exhaust.pdf |
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I attended the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC). I was involved in Psychology, Gender and Women Studies and Education. Those were the 3 areas where I probed the most. I actually did a work study with a national Chicago based organization, so I extended my classroom experience a bit and got involved with some large scale educational gatherings. "Fixing" the Chicago Public School system is something that many people are working on. People literally dedicate their lives and careers to this issue. People get PhDs in school management or urban settings and work to try to bring resolution to the CPS problem. I cannot emphasis how many people have dedicated their lives to this issue. The take-home point here is that I am feeble and this is just a forum thread. I can highlight where there are deficits or inequities, I can point to problems, but I certainly cannot fix them. Suggesting that if someone wants to succeed they need to work harder or attend a different school doesn't provide a very tangible solution to this issue. In the CPS, you are talking about an annual graduation rate of around 50%. The problem is large, it is systemic...and telling kids to go to different schools would literally displace thousands of kids. At this point we are talking about large scale social issues, things that are deeply imbedded and have a history. Like Prof S showed with the social welfare stuff, a lot of this is policy that goes way back. Back to immigration, early Chicago, and early racism. So some stats: I'm pulling these numbers from the Chicago Public Schools Office of Performance website. If you'd like to check the info feel free to browse here: http://research.cps.k12.il.us/cps/ac...llschools.html Anyway, according to the stats released by CPS, in 2010 55.8% of students graduated high school, with 41.1% dropping out. That is actually an improvement from previous years. Looking at the College enrollment fact sheet: “54.4% of CPS 2009 graduates enrolled in college – an increase of 1.9 percentage points from 2008.” There has been an increase in college enrollment for the past 5 years – a good thing. In 2009, 10,249 CPS graduates enrolled in college in 2009, which is an all time high for CPS. Consider this: in 2009 there were 18,846 CPS graduates: 10,249 were enrolled in college, or 54.4%. 54.4% of graduates enrolling into college…isn’t bad right? Before we look at things from a race perspective, we should frame these graduation and dropout rates compared to the national average. 2003-2004 stats reveal that, on average, CPS has higher dropout rates than the outlying schools as well as the national average: The good news is that graduation rates in Chicago are rising… So seemingly, it is not all doom and gloom…on the other hand, in 2009, only 48.1% of African American males and 59.5% of AA females enrolled in college…only 43.2% Latino males and 49.4% Latino females enrolled… By the way, and oddly enough, according to this article from 2006, in the largest school districts, New York has a lower graduation rate than Chicago does… http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...ut-rates_x.htm So evidently New York could be just as fucked up in certain areas. Back to Chicago… Quote:
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So while there is an increase in College enrollment, and while around 50+% do enroll into college, the graduation rates are HORRIFIC. According to the US Census Bureau, in 2008 71.8% of Bachelor degrees were earned by White people, 9.8% by black, 7.9% by Hispanic, and 7.0% by Asian. That’s a national number, btw, so when you stack that up to say…the 6 out of 100 people who get a degree who attended CPS…I mean the numbers are harrowing. These are just the graduation and college RATES. These don’t even touch the social problems. Like the kids who see gang violence. I guess in my next post I can link to all the Chicago gangs, the crime rates by area/neighborhood, and I can link to articles discussing mortality rates among CPS attendees. I also propose several solutions that may or may not be steps in the right direction to fixing some of these issues: 1) More parent involvement 2) Longer school days and better school programs 3) Decriminalizing drugs like Marijuana and Crack 4) Figuring out how to tackle the anti-white feelings towards education within the Black community 5) Fixing Affirmative Action and Social Welfare |
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