GameTavern - Paul Ryan

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- - Paul Ryan (http://www.gametavern.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22436)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor S (Post 283984)

I'm not trying to say that Ryan didn't exaggerate or mislead, but I think people are exaggerating Ryan's exaggerations, and downplaying those from the Democrat convention, as I pointed out in my last post. Read the whole article on Clinton's speech. There is more than one exaggeration and half-truth and the ntire speech was based on them. Also, his speech was incredibly effective because of it.

As you say, compare the fact checking on all the speeches and make your own conclusions. I recommend FactCheck.org for a truly unbiased account. The Politico article on Clinton's speech I posted is pretty good as well.

To be honest, the "fact checking" that has been done by most news organizations has been awful on all sides and for both conventions. American news is dead. We're on our own.

I actually am referring to factcheck.org articles on the two speeches, not other ones on different news sites. Ryan's is pretty insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr (Post 283986)

I actually am referring to factcheck.org articles on the two speeches, not other ones on different news sites. Ryan's is pretty insane.

Well, if you think the scenario I described surrounding Ryan's comments about the GM plant in Wisconsin is an example of an "insane" lie, then I'm sure you would feel that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor S (Post 283988)

Well, if you think the scenario I described surrounding Ryan's comments about the GM plant in Wisconsin is an example of an "insane" lie, then I'm sure you would feel that way.

That's one thing, but I'm also talking about everything else in this article:

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/ryans-vp-spin/

The one you listed. I mean you can't pick out one not-so-bad lie and make it sound like everything else was just a not-so-bad-lie. But when your ENTIRE speech is not-so-bad-lies (which it isn't, some of them are pretty bad)...wtf are you even talking for?

I understand his entire purpose was to get people motivated, but half the things he criticized Obama for were things that he also supported. I'm not even saying those things were bad things to support, but getting your party hyped up against something that you support is just silly.

What do Republicans even want or stand for at this point, I don't even know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr (Post 283990)

I've read the entire article; parts of it numerous times. The reason I cherry-picked he GM plant and healthcare portions is because they are topics that critics are concentrating on as a particularly bold-faced lies, and I think they are actually his strongest points!

Here are my point by point opinions from the FactCheck.org article and my thoughts on them:

Quote:

Accused President Obama’s health care law of funneling money away from Medicare “at the expense of the elderly.” In fact, Medicare’s chief actuary says the law “substantially improves” the system’s finances, and Ryan himself has embraced the same savings.

I addressed this previously. Ryan embraced the savings, but put the savings back into Medicare, just not in Part A. Under the Democrat plan, the ACA takes the funds out of Medicare entirely.

As for the ACA improving Medicare's finances, that's only because it "improves costs" by paying hospitals and doctors less, an incredibly stupid idea that is rife with unintended consequences.

Quote:

Accused Obama of doing “exactly nothing” about recommendations of a bipartisan deficit commission — which Ryan himself helped scuttle.

This is true, and I agree it was one of Ryan's weaker arguments, but it was Pres. Obama who called the commission putting the onus to him to push forward the proposals, not Ryan. Ryan had his own plan that predated the commission, and proposed an alternative budget that passed the house and effectively reduces the deficit and eventually the debt. Pres. Obama has submitted two budgets that received zero votes from either the senate or house, and neither of the budgets included anything from the results of his own commission. The Democrat led Senate has not passed a budget in over 3 years, and it's their JOB to do so every year...

Quote:

Claimed the American people were “cut out” of stimulus spending. Actually, more than a quarter of all stimulus dollars went for tax relief for workers.

The "Cut out" statement is a pretty general stump comment I took to mean a philosophical difference on how stimulus should be applied, and I never thought he meant to say exactly zero money went to citizens, but it's a semantic argument that can go either way depending on your leanings. I concede the point.

Quote:

Faulted Obama for failing to deliver a 2008 campaign promise to keep a Wisconsin plant open. It closed less than a month before Obama took office.

Addressed previously.

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Blamed Obama for the loss of a AAA credit rating for the U.S. Actually, Standard & Poor’s blamed the downgrade on the uncompromising stands of both Republicans and Democrats.

Ryan's actual quote was a factual statement, but again omits much of the details surrounding it that included brinkmanship on both sides.

But I fail to see how this is any more offensive than blaming Republicans for the current state of the debt when the current Administration has spent far more every year than Republicans did under Bush. Again, Ryan's speech was misleading, but I just don't get why everyone is losing their minds over it, aside from political bias and the fact his speech was largely effective.

Side note: I always watch Chris Matthews to see when Republicans are effective in communication. When he loses his mind, Republicans hit a home run. When he laughs at them, they dropped the ball. Matthews was insane after Ryan's speech.

And by the way, you can feel free to disagree with me, and considering our political philosophies I'm not shocked we disagree since Ryan's speech was largely philosophical, but I think I know "wtf I'm talking for".

Just watched Clinton's speech; he is a master at politics.

Any thoughts on Obama's speech? I've only seen the first ten minutes, but so far it's terrible.

I can't see how you can spin it into being even on everything prof. It's like you're just trying to rationalize what the right is doing. But we can just agree to disagree.

The funny part about clinton's speech 'issues' is that most of what he was missing was arguements against the plan he was supporting. It's like a car dealer bringing up that what you're buying is still a car, and you have to pay for tags, and gas, and a wheel might blow up if you drive over glass... like things unnessicary for him to bring up.

Much different from Ryan directly misleading people about Obama's failures. The one thing Clinton was labeled as "True but misleading" would have been used against the party if there was record high spending since 'Obamacare' passed. That's just politics.. something historic happens on your watch and you take credit (unless it's historically bad, then you get attacked for it). Doesn't matter who caused/fixed it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond (Post 283993)

Just watched Clinton's speech; he is a master at politics.

Any thoughts on Obama's speech? I've only seen the first ten minutes, but so far it's terrible.

Obama has a lot of charisma, but after listening to Clinton's speech it's going to sound pointless. Clinton was a lot more direct.