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Re: Thoughts on Superman

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Originally Posted by Professor S (Post 246399)

Thepsis has brought up something that I find frustrating about DC in general: The is no meaning in death.

Marvel has brought back it's fair share of deceased characters, but never to the same level as DC, who actually created an rediculous theme of multi-verses to explain their irresponsible cashing in on the death and resurrection of their iconic characters.

Batman is the latest example, where they killed Batman but didn't really kill him. All their press and even the name of the storyline (R.I.P.) talked about Batman's death, while the actual story faked Batman's death not once, BUT TWICE IN TWO BOOKS.

The classic example is the death of Superman, possibly the most overhyped crapfest I've ever read with the introduction of a worthless villain. Luthor should have killed Superman, and it should have been brilliantly conceived and Luthor should have been severely conflicted over finally achieving his goal and then relieved when Superman returned. THAT'S A STORY. Ripping off the incredible Hulk to serve as a death device is NOT.

In the end, I've been left with no reason to read DC because I never believe that any of their plots have any meaning because the mortal threat each hero is under has no meaning. They killed him? Wait a month, he's fine.

Marvel on the other hand, has recently taken a harder stance on death, especially with Captain America, and its a change that has won critical acclaim and financial success.

Whoa whoa...

Time out... Flag on the play.

DC nor Morrison ever declared that Batman RIP would see the actual death of Batman, if I remember correctly they stated at the end that Bruce Wayne would no longer be Batman.

And they delivered.

And two, they didn't fake kill off Batman, they used a plot device to remove the character. Everyone knows his faith, its not like he will magically re-appear and then have to explain where he has been.

And you can not be serious about DC doing, and Marvel being better at it.
I won't even touch Jean Grey.
But look at how they friggin mangled the whole Spiderman unmasking thing to create one of the greatest clustermesses in all of comic-dom. Not only did they do all of that, the comic has been a lot worse for it.

I mean maybe I'm not a long time reader, but I don't remember Superman or Batman dying too often.

Sure they bought back Hal Jordan and Green Arrow, and even now it is used as a punchline in most comics since most everyone comes back, but that is part of the fun of it. And usually death has a consequence and the return has a reason.

Re: Thoughts on Superman

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Originally Posted by BreakABone (Post 246401)

Yes, but that is NOT the message they wanted to expose to the media. Even Moriison constantly played with the concept of the story, trying to gain attention.

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And they delivered.

And two, they didn't fake kill off Batman, they used a plot device to remove the character. Everyone knows his faith, its not like he will magically re-appear and then have to explain where he has been.

I didn't say they actually killed Batman and brought him back, I said they "fake" killed him and did so on a giant splash page

Exhibit "A":

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And you can not be serious about DC doing, and Marvel being better at it.
I won't even touch Jean Grey.
But look at how they friggin mangled the whole Spiderman unmasking thing to create one of the greatest clustermesses in all of comic-dom. Not only did they do all of that, the comic has been a lot worse for it.

Spiderman didn't die in that storyline.

The Captain America death was better than anything DC has ever done with the same type of plot. Why? Because they kept him DEAD. At least for now... Marvel could always make me eat my hat once they start pushing for the damn Captain America and Avengers movies. Now thinking of it, I'm calling his miraculous return to coincide with those movies.

But still, they've handled it expertly so far, and my main pount was "lately" and Jean Grey's death was never pimped to the extent of Superman's or Batman' fake death, but I will concede they have abused the property to the point of meaninglessness.

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I mean maybe I'm not a long time reader, but I don't remember Superman or Batman dying too often.

No, but when they killed them it was for essentially the reason of furthering pocket books, and not storylines (t-minus 5 seconds until Bruce Wayne is back as Batman once sales start slumping). They created massive events, with little substance or continuing impact (unless you consider Steel a good addition). Captain America was done right.

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Sure they bought back Hal Jordan and Green Arrow, and even now it is used as a punchline in most comics since most everyone comes back, but that is part of the fun of it. And usually death has a consequence and the return has a reason.

But thats not my point. My point is that the constant returns deminish any reason to emotionally invest in these characters, as I never fully emotionally invested in Jean Grey once they started offing her every decade or so. And with the entire multi-verse abortion, they have built in an automatic do-over button where they can simply erase any previous continuity any time they feel like it. Its a device for LAZY writers and creators, not a genuine way to build a universe, IMO. Say what you will about Marvel, but they didn't go in such a intellectually corrupt and confusing direction.

Can you tell I hate the multi-verse? It's garbage. Utter, complete, bankrupt garbage.

But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong... ;)

Re: Thoughts on Superman

Well as far as I know, the multiverse laid dormant for almost 20 years between Crisis on Infinite Earth and Infinity Crisis in 2005.

And the death from that eventful was meaningful, and outside of the Flash who returned just at the end of Final Crisis, I don't believe anyone else was bought back from the dead.

I still don't agree with you on the whole Batman RIP thing since I guess I followed it closely, they always said that Bruce would no longer be Batman, and half way through most people assumed that Morrison would break Bruce psychologically to the point where he would need to hang up the cowl for a bit.

Two things with the Splash image, one I think it went more for iconic as it shows Superman has failed to save even the greatest of Earth's heroes and that evil truly had won the day. And second, Bruce Wayne is dead, his spirit or whatever lives on. I can understand how you mean it was glorified, but I mean they lay it out at the end of the next issue. I feel that was important instead of dragging it out for years, they at least acknowledge that he will be back.

I don't think you need to kill a character to ruin any momentum, and Spiderman unmasking was a HUGE HUGE HUGE deal. Then it was retconned within like 6 months in the most retarded way possible, and it is not like the fallout had been worth it. Just... ARGH dam you MARVEL!

Not gonna disagree with you on the Captain America thing, but my thing with Spiderman and to a lesser extent Jean is that Marvel is not beneath trying some cheap changes to booster sales.

Sure Superman has been killed and Batman's back broken, but I mean Marvel unmasked Spiderman, killed the Captain, I won't mention Jean again, wiped out most of the mutant population and made a new color Hulk to show him when he really gets mad. :lolz:

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Well that's the thing, I mean the difference between Superman and Jean or any of them is it doesn't happen often to the same character.

Superman has died once as far as I know. Batman same deal. Superboy Prime. The Flash is a bit questionable as they have killed multiple Flashes, but different characters and the sort.

And usually when they are bought back, they try to do it in a way in which it has ramifications to the world around it. I mean outside of Jason Todd coming back from his reality punch.

And sometimes, its the lesser moments sprinkled around comics that you would miss. Like Green Arrow talking to Hal Jordan at his gravesite. Or Robin working on a way to bring back Superboy or even the Cult that Elastic Man joins in order to resurrect his wife.

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Can you tell I hate the multi-verse? It's garbage. Utter, complete, bankrupt garbage.

I said most of my piece on the multi-verse up top.

But again Marvel isn't above this... they just simplified it by creating an entirely new line of comic books so they didn't have to muddle with their own complex and complicated history.

Re: Thoughts on Superman

I think my main problem is with the multi-verse, which gives me the expectation that no death will be permananent. I never question whether or not a dead character will be brought back, and if they do there is a built in explanation, so to me all the drama is removed. I no longer care.

IMO, if you are going to bring back a character you killed, part of the penance should be trying to piece together some storyline where the return makes sense.

And for the record, I think the Knightfall storyline was great, and the back breaking and recovery made sense (hated the art, though). They also wiped out the mutant population at Genosha... but they didn't bring them back either... except for Magneto... but that's a mess, I'll agree.

As for the Ultimate Universe, that is a hard separation, so I don't think thats comparable to the multi-verse. Two separate continuities.

BTW, how did they bring back Magneto after Morrison/Wolverine beheaded him? Magneto really is a character that was more powerful to that book in death than in life, and I think Morrison was trying make the argument that he should have stayed dead hoping the next writer kept him that way.

Re: Thoughts on Superman

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Originally Posted by BreakABone (Post 246415)

Or Robin working on a way to bring back Superboy or even the Cult that Elastic Man joins in order to resurrect his wife.

Elongated Man. For shame.

I don't like the multiverse either. I do enjoy the JSA though who for the most part are from Earth-2.

The only Batman books I enjoy are the miniseries contained within Gotham.

And yes, they did ruin Spider-man beyond repair. I read up to One More Day wondering what stroke of genius writing was going to happen to right his world. Aunt May was dying, he was a fugitive with his identity known...and then.......yeeeeaaahh. Cop out.

Read what you like. I have no stock in the main books. Can't make everyone happy.

Re: Thoughts on Superman

I am still holding to my anti-DC opinion. Both universes have their share of dead people coming back to life. The biggest Marvel screw up is the whole Onslaught storyline.

However, Steve Rogers is assassinated. I don't think he's coming back. They didn't make the Hulk green when the movie came out, they kept him red. They won't bring back Steve Rogers just because of the movie.

Gwen Stacy was killed. She never came back. (Yes, I know the whole clone saga, but that was built in to fail. She never ACTUALLY came back, they were just expanding on a storyline from earlier in the series that related to her.)

I know they brought back Bucky, but they brought him back... like 60 years later. They couldn't even wait more then 20 to bring back Jason Todd.

The point of the matter is that DC makes heroes that cannot die. Like Superman. (He is the purpose of this thread, right?) And when they die and inevitably return, you have less invested in your characters. When Marvel does something, there's a 50-50 shot it'll take. Wolverine gets his skeleton ripped out, Steve Rogers is dead, Harry Osborne is dead, Gwen Stacey is dead, etc...etc...

That's why we care more about Marvel characters then DC characters and that's one of the reasons why Marvel does infinitely better then DC.

Re: Thoughts on Superman

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Originally Posted by Thespis721 (Post 246561)

Actually Harry Osborne isn't dead, and he was bought back in the most retarded of ways and this is coming from someone who read about the Superboy Prime time alterating punch.

Actually, the whole Osborne corp drives me nuts.

And just because a character is dead doesn't mean Marvel can't find a way to screw them up. I mean remember when Gwen's childrens with Norman were revealed? Remember how they had superpowers? Yeah that happened!

And Marvel has its share of non-killable characters, hell I think most of Weapons X can't die, I know its damn near impossible to kill Wolverine and Deadpool.

Re: Thoughts on Superman