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GameMaster

05-04-2005 05:47 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Peace or war,
love or hate,
neither can exist without the other,
equal opposites forced to coexist,
eternal enemies in a unified pond...

Bond	05-04-2005 05:48 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Neo, you do realize Christianity has an answer to all those questions, right?

Neo	05-04-2005 05:52 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

None that are logically consistent.

Vampyr

05-04-2005 06:40 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Christianity is built on a foundation of inconsistancies.

Oh the hypocrisy of it all.

Kitana85

05-05-2005 01:24 AM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Christianity is built on a foundation of inconsistancies.

And that's why it's called faith... if it was easily (or possibly) rationalised faith would not be needed -- unless you are a follower of Thomas Aquinis in which case it is possible to follow the whole thing with reason... but thats why more poeple tend to follow other Christian thinkers- Aquinian ideas tend not to work.

Canyarion

05-05-2005 04:18 AM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

I'm with Bond here, religion has answers. I know mine has very good ones, ones that actually make sense when you dig into them deeper.

But discussing religion on the internet is useless, so..... :)

Vampyr

05-05-2005 07:04 AM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitana85

I'm not just saying it's unrational. I mean it is: a big all powerful spirit guy living in the "heavens" who has angels that fly with wings and halo's, and he had a human son who healed the blind and returned from the death, all that is very irrational, but like you said, that's what faith is for.

I'm speaking of the hypocrisy of christianity. It constantly contradicts itself.

[edit] Canyarion, I believe discussing religion on the internet is fun, but arguing about it is useless. :) I think that's probably what you meant anyway, but I just wanted to state that because I'm not trying to argue with anyone.

Canyarion

05-05-2005 04:15 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Ok ok can't resist.

Vampyr, you think Jesus was only a human? Didn't you know that he was his first-born son, the only thing he created himself? The rest of the creation was done through Jesus.

He went to earth to sacrifice his perfect life so people wouldn't have to bring animal sacrifeces anymore. And he gave some adjusted laws.

In the future (and I believe it's near) Jesus will bring peace on earth and restore eternal life, as it was meant (Adam and Eve).

I don't know of any contradictions.

You have to remind that the old testament and the new one are seperate things, for different times. First the jews were immediately punished when they made a big sin. Eye for an eye....
Because people changed, this law didn't work anymore, so Jesus brought a new law, to forgive. 2 seperate things that seem to contradict eachother. But they don't. Stuff like that.

Neo	05-05-2005 04:28 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Heh none of that makes sense.

I also find it interesting that none of the secular writers of the time mention Jesus. Supposedly large groups of people followed him around as he performed his miracles yet none of the record keepers saw fit to even mention him. The writers who do mention him weren't born until a decade after his supposed crucifixion.

Quote:

In the future (and I believe it's near) Jesus will bring peace on earth and restore eternal life, as it was meant (Adam and Eve).

I hope you're right but I think you're going to be waiting for a LONG time.

Canyarion

05-05-2005 06:11 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Hm, perhaps because Jesus was killed like a criminal? Christianity was illegal, people were afraid to write about it.

And Mathew, Joan and Marc all knew Jesus. Only Luke lived/wrote after Jesus died.

I KNOW I'll get tired of this discussion really fast. :unsure:

Bond	05-05-2005 06:30 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

Stuff I posted earlier:

7) Is God all-powerfull and all-good? If he is all-powerful, then he would be able to prevent evil. If he is all-good, then he would want to prevent evil. But are not pain and suffering woven into the very fabric of our life? Why is there pain and suffering?

God gave us free will. Having free will and preventing evil cannot logically work together.

Quote:

8) Does God allow evil so we can develop good characteristics? Does he permit pain and suffering so we can become better? Is it owing to poverty that we become charitable, owing to cruelty that we become kind? Does evil build souls? But why are built souls a virtue? Why are the traits of charity and kindness good? Isn't that they help us prevent evil, pain, and suffering? But if there was no evil in the first place, why would we need these traits? Would they still remain virtues?

There is redemptive suffering. Suffering has value. We learn and struggle from suffering. It makes us who we are.

Quote:

10) Doesn't evil destroy character more often than building it? Do not abused children themselves abuse children?

Well, now you're into transcendentalism and anti-transcendentalism.

Quote:

11) Must we have pain so we can know joy? Must we suffer in order to know what happiness is?

Well, yes, that's entirely possible.

Quote:

12) Does pain and suffering come from the misuse of our freedom? If God is all-powerful couldn't he have made us both free and so that we always did good?

No. You can't have free will, but yet be forced to always do the right thing.

Quote:

13) If a parent gives a child freedom to roam in the street and child gets injured, is it the child or the parent who is guilty?

Both. But you can't compare the parent with God and the child with humanity.

Vampyr

05-05-2005 07:33 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

I can't resist either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cany

I don't know of any contradictions.

1.
"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother..." -- Deuteronomy 27:22

"And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter...it is a wicked thing...." -- Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god's reaction to Abraham, who married his sister -- his father's daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

"And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife...I bless her, and give thee a son also of her..." -- Genesis 17:15-16

2.

"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

3.

"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19

4.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1

To name a few, anyway.

Neo	05-05-2005 07:43 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

In a mechanistic universe free will is ultimately an illusion anyway. Not even the randomness of quantum mechanics can change that. But regardless our will is a result of our complex intellegence which in turn is a result of evolution. It was not given to us by an invisible man who lives in the clouds.

I agree pain and suffering do cause us to be stronger as well as provide us with the ability to know and appreciate joy. That just proves that they are dependent on each other and are really two sides to the same coin. We can no more seperate ourselves from evil than we can detach our heads. This is all moot though since good and evil are just mental conceptions that have no independent reality. Good is not some substance floating around in the air, it's just a label we use to classify actions. Things that are considered evil actually seem to be doing some good for us.

Neo	05-05-2005 07:54 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I can't resist either.

1.
"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother..." -- Deuteronomy 27:22

"And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter...it is a wicked thing...." -- Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god's reaction to Abraham, who married his sister -- his father's daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

"And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife...I bless her, and give thee a son also of her..." -- Genesis 17:15-16

2.

"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

3.

"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19

4.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1

To name a few, anyway.

That's what happens you have a group of writers with different styles and interpretations; Inconsistencies in accounts show up. I don't think the contradictions are really that important though. What's of interest to me is the fact that many of the stories in the bible (especially Noah's Ark) have obvious roots in ancient sumarian texts. They are parables based on factual events. Jesus's miracles are most likely parables as well. As the bible was written it was known that the earliest records of our civilization were dated around 3000 B.C.. That's why they assumed the earth was created not too long before that. They interpreted the lack of a written record as meaning life didn't exist until that time.

dropCGCF

05-05-2005 08:25 PM

Re: End of the world couldn't come soon enough

"God Of Gaps". Look it up.

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