Won't know who President is Nov. 2

[Neo]

Absentee ballots may turn this election into a major headache. Key battleground states such as Ohio and Florida have extended the deadline by which overseas ballots must be received past Nov 2. They want to make sure as many votes are counted as is possible. So far the process has been a complete nightmare as Pentagon computer systems are unable to handle the influx of registrations. Complicated rules and voting regulations have confused many who live overseas. Initially the Pentagon system was only made available to the military which is causing states to reject them. Officers are strongly Republican but the new recruits are more evenly divided between candidates. The millions of civilians living overseas favor Kerry by 58%.

I can already see legal challenges by both sides as to the standards to use in which votes to accept and which to reject. I don't know if it will be possible to declare a winner on Nov 2nd with so many potential votes yet to be counted.

[Professor S]

Absentee ballots may turn this election into a major headache. Key battleground states such as Ohio and Florida have extended the deadline by which overseas ballots must be received past Nov 2. They want to make sure as many votes are counted as is possible. So far the process has been a complete nightmare as Pentagon computer systems are unable to handle the influx of registrations. Complicated rules and voting regulations have confused many who live overseas. Initially the Pentagon system was only made available to the military which is causing states to reject them. Officers are strongly Republican but the new recruits are more evenly divided between candidates. The millions of civilians living overseas favor Kerry by 58%.

I can already see legal challenges by both sides as to the standards to use in which votes to accept and which to reject. I don't know if it will be possible to declare a winner on Nov 2nd with so many potential votes yet to be counted.

I don't see it being decided right away either, ans the controversy surrounding it is going to be even worse because whoever loses is going to look for anything they could call fraud.

Also, could you please post the source for your 58% number, its not that I don't think its accurate but I doubt that it includes the 100,000+ military personnel overseas.

[Fox 6]

Canadian elections are usually decided in a day or two. But we have less people.

[Neo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/29/politics/campaign/29military.html?ex=1254110400&en=bb18d7c4c5718420&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

[Neo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/29/politics/campaign/29military.html?ex=1254110400&en=bb18d7c4c5718420&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

[Professor S]

Good article, but like I thought the 58% did not include the military, it was a civilian pole. As for the assertion that military rank and file are split, I find that highly unlikely. I know several people in the military, and the amount of hatred towards Kerry is palpable. They don't necessarily like Bush, but they HATE Kerry, and I don't use that term lightly.

[Neo]

What I don't understand is why so many military people support Bush after he got himself transferred to the Guard. I mean he clearly used his family influence to get him the most cushy ride possible. How can Bush order a soldier to do something he wasn't willing to do himself? Kerry, on the other hand, actually volunteered to go to Vietnam. Do they hate him just because of his anti-war comments?

[Professor S]

What I don't understand is why so many military people support Bush after he got himself transferred to the Guard. I mean he clearly used his family influence to get him the most cushy ride possible. How can Bush order a soldier to do something he wasn't willing to do himself? Kerry, on the other hand, actually volunteered to go to Vietnam. Do they hate him just because of his anti-war comments?

His anti-war comments, how he stabbed his fellow soldiers in that back with his damning testimony, and oh yeah... THE $87 BILLION IN FUNDING FOR THE TROOPS HE VOTED AGAINST AND HIS 20+ YEAR RECORD OF VOTING AGAINST MILITARY ADVANCEMENTS AND RESEARCH. Its the same advancements and research that he voted against that keep American troops alive.

Now Kerry says how he will give the troops proper equipment, when his entire voting history contradicts these empty statements. The military are not stupid and they aren't going to accept a poltician at his word. Actions speak louder.

[The Germanator]

His anti-war comments, how he stabbed his fellow soldiers in that back with his damning testimony

It's a Goddamn shame when a man cannot come back from war and speak his OPINION on it. He has every right in the world to say bad things about the Viet Nam war because he was right in the thick of it. The claim of some people that this makes him some kind of traitor is utterly despicable in my opinion.

[Neo]

What Kerry did was vote against the continued financing of a badly planned war. Republicans just like to point out that part of it included money for body armor, armor which they should have had BEFORE being sent into harm's way.

Kerry spoke the truth about American soldier's actions in Vietnam. It's too bad if they can't handle that. It's also known that the war crimes were not committed by everyone, just a select few. Of course every veteran seems to think Kerry was talking about themselves personally.

Here's some of what he said:


we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

...In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart....

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how money from American taxes was used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by our flag, as blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs as well as by search and destroy missions, as well as by Vietcong terrorism, and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doen'st have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say they we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

[Professor S]

What Kerry did was vote against the continued financing of a badly planned war. Republicans just like to point out that part of it included money for body armor, armor which they should have had BEFORE being sent into harm's way.

So to make things right he decides to exascerbate the situatin by denying them the armor and then blaming the whole thing on Bush. Makes sense to me! Oh, and he voted for the "badly planned" war, just a reminder.

"Hey, I'm now against war now that the poles aren't 80% in favor, so I'll put more lives in jeapardy by denying them the equipment that they need now that the occupation is not going as well as we thought it would." How very compassionate. Thats the type of person I want as President.

As for his comments on Vietnam, I'm not saying those are my opinions, but the opinions of the military people I know. They consider it a fraternity and what he said afterwards hurt them greatly. They also belive that Kerry went to Vietnam, yes by choice, but they believed it was very contrived. They belive he went there for political reasons, and point to the number on cameras that seemed to follow him around as evidence. By the way, Kerry is also an admitted war criminal and his fellow troops don't like that he implicated them for the same crimes. Once again, not my opinion but that is what much of the military (that I know of) feel.

[Blackmane]

What Kerry did was vote against the continued financing of a badly planned war. Republicans just like to point out that part of it included money for body armor, armor which they should have had BEFORE being sent into harm's way.

But, Kerry is the one mentioning lack of body armor in the debates at least twice, which is essencially a complaint of lack of funding, which he was against. So, if he truly felt like extra funding wasn't nessesary, then why bring that facet of the war up?

[Neo]

But, Kerry is the one mentioning lack of body armor in the debates at least twice, which is essencially a complaint of lack of funding, which he was against. So, if he truly felt like extra funding wasn't nessesary, then why bring that facet of the war up?


ummm.... Because he's an opportunistic flip-flopper?

[Typhoid]

His anti-war comments, how he stabbed his fellow soldiers in that back with his damning testimony, and oh yeah... THE $87 BILLION IN FUNDING FOR THE TROOPS HE VOTED AGAINST AND HIS 20+ YEAR RECORD OF VOTING AGAINST MILITARY ADVANCEMENTS AND RESEARCH. Its the same advancements and research that he voted against that keep American troops alive.

Now Kerry says how he will give the troops proper equipment, when his entire voting history contradicts these empty statements. The military are not stupid and they aren't going to accept a poltician at his word. Actions speak louder.



Sure, he voted against them, but he didnt vote against them for this war did he?

Its like saying a Republican (or Democrat) wont vote the otehr way because of their years of voting a certain way regardless of political issues they may agree with.

You do know, that sometimes, past voting records should be taken with a grain of salt.

Obvoiusly his stance on things will change, minds change, people get new ideas. Its what people do. Its a human thing.

[Blackmane]

Sure, he voted against them, but he didnt vote against them for this war did he?

Its like saying a Republican (or Democrat) wont vote the otehr way because of their years of voting a certain way regardless of political issues they may agree with.

You do know, that sometimes, past voting records should be taken with a grain of salt.

Obvoiusly his stance on things will change, minds change, people get new ideas. Its what people do. Its a human thing.

Of course that is the human way. That is fine.

The problem is, this man is not just another person. He is running for the President of the United States.

So many people look at Kerry's voting record and say "Oh well." Frankly, Kerry's voting record is against a lot of the things he is promising or saying in this election, and it is something that he doesn't bring up much at all because it is very revealing. This is not just restricted to the military.

What are you going to believe? A man's promises or his past actions? Cause frankly, if anything should be taken with a grain of salt, it would be promises that lack a firm backing.

Not to mention that he is an opportunistic flip-flopper. ;)

[Typhoid]

Not to mention that he is an opportunistic flip-flopper. ;)


And Bush is an illiterate monkey. Whats your point? :p

So since he is running for President he has to be inhuman then? He isnt allowed to change his mind? I dont know one person who hasnt changed their mind before.


Kerry's voting record is against a lot of the things he is promising or saying in this election

But some of the major things were more than 10 years ago. Times change, people change, Ideals change, and votes change.


What are you going to believe? A man's promises or his past actions?

You want to talk of past actions to determine who is better for your country?

You want to talk about being hung up on the past, rather than looking into the future?

Do you want a man who cannot remember a lick of a speech. Do you want a bumbling idiot? Do you want someone who constantly messes up his points and speeches?

"The French dont have a word for 'Entrepreneur'."

"This will be a non-volunteer army, Amer-.................excuse me....this will be an all volunteer army."

"In Texas they say 'Fool me once....................sh.....uh...shame on me...fool me...' You see, the thing is, you just cant fool me."

"Rarely is the question asked, Is our children learning."

"THEY MISUNDERESTIMATED ME."

"THEY WANT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CONTROLLING SOCIAL SECURITY LIKE IT'S SOME KIND OF FEDERAL PROGRAM."

" I do not believe we've put a guilty... I mean innocent person to death in the state pf texas."

BUSH: "FIRST OF ALL, CINCO DE MAYO IS NOT THE INDEPENDENCE DAY. THAT'S DIECISEIS DE SEPTIEMBRE, AND ..."
MATTHEWS: "WHAT'S THAT IN ENGLISH?" BUSH: "FIFTEENTH OF SEPTEMBER." (DIECISEIS DE SEPTIEMBRE = SEPT. 16)

"THE FACT THAT HE RELIES ON FACTS...SAYS THINGS THAT ARE NOT FACTUAL...ARE GOING TO UNDERMINE HIS CAMPAIGN."

"I THINK WE AGREE, THE PAST IS OVER."

"IT'S CLEARLY A BUDGET. IT'S GOT A LOT OF NUMBERS IN IT."

GOV. BUSH: " I TALKED TO MY LITTLE BROTHER, JEB...I HAVEN'T TOLD THIS TO MANY PEOPLE. BUT HE'S THE GOVERNOR OF...I SHOULDN'T CALL HIM MY LITTLE BROTHER...MY BROTHER, JEB, THE GREAT GOVERNOR OF TEXAS."
JIM LEHRER: "FLORIDA."
GOV. BUSH: "FLORIDA. THE STATE OF THE FLORIDA."

"IT'S EVOLUTIONARY, GOING FROM GOVERNOR TO PRESIDENT, AND THIS IS A SIGNIFICANT STEP, TO BE ABLE TO VOTE FOR YOURSELF ON THE BALLOT, AND I'LL BE ABLE TO DO SO NEXT FALL, I HOPE."

"I UNDERSTAND SMALL BUSINESS GROWTH. I WAS ONE."

"THE SENATOR HAS GOT TO UNDERSTAND IF HE'S GOING TO HAVE...HE CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. HE CAN'T TAKE THE HIGH HORSE AND THEN CLAIM THE LOW ROAD."

"WE OUGHT TO MAKE THE PIE HIGHER."

"I THINK WE NEED NOT ONLY TO ELIMINATE THE TOLLBOOTH TO THE MIDDLE CLASS, I THINK WE SHOULD KNOCK DOWN THE TOLLBOOTH."

"THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB IS NOT TO BE GOVERNOR, OR FIRST LADY IN MY CASE."

"WILL THE HIGHWAYS ON THE INTERNET BECOME MORE FEW?"

"I KNOW HOW HARD IT IS FOR YOU TO PUT FOOD ON YOUR FAMILY."

"ANYWAY, I'M SO THANKFUL, AND SO GRACIOUS - I'M GRACIOUS THAT MY BROTHER JEB IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE HEMISPHERE AS WELL."

"FOR EVERY FATAL SHOOTING, THERE WERE ROUGHLY THREE NON-FATAL SHOOTINGS. AND, FOLKS, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE IN AMERICA. IT'S JUST UNACCEPTABLE. AND WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT."

[Professor S]

Sure, he voted against them, but he didnt vote against them for this war did he?

Yes, he did. $87 Billion in funding FOR THIS WAR he voted against, and now he's blaming Bush for them not being equipped. Its called hypocrisy, and if Kerry is President you better get used to it.

And Typhoid, are you really comparing verbal miscues to a planned voting record and intentional policies that point to Kerry being against everything he says he now stands for? What planet are you from?

[Typhoid]

What planet are you from?


The fine planet of Australia. ;)

[Blackmane]

So Typhoid, your saying that if a person can speak clearly and effectively, even if what he is saying contradicts things that he has wither said before or has done (voting record), then that is better than someone who has firm beliefs but has speech impediments?

So, I guess you want a good public speaker, because that is all that is important, right? Tell us what we want to hear, right? I guess it is good that Kerry brought in a former trial lawyer as his running mate, just to give him some more points in speech.

But, its ok, because really it doesn't matter what Kerry says or does, because so many of the liberal minds on this forum are too filled with contempt at Bush that they will vote for Kerry no matter what.

[Typhoid]

But, its ok, because really it doesn't matter what Kerry says or does, because so many of the liberal minds on this forum are too filled with contempt at Bush that they will vote for Kerry no matter what.


And you think you Republicans are so much higher than Liberals/Democrats? You think your on a different pedestal just because we like Kerry? You think your better people because we dont like George Bush and you do?


Again, i will chage words to make a complete, and true, sentance. Its magic i say.

Let Kerry=Bush
Let Liberal=Republican
Let Bush=Kerry

and voila.

But, its ok, because really it doesn't matter what Bush says or does, because so many of the Republican minds on this forum are too filled with contempt at Kerry that they will vote for Bush no matter what.

[Professor S]

Let Kerry=Bush
Let Liberal=Republican
Let Bush=Kerry

and voila.

"But, its ok, because really it doesn't matter what Bush says or does, because so many of the Republican minds on this forum are too filled with contempt at Kerry that they will vote for Bush no matter what."

Except for the fact that its completely inaccurate. Most republicans don't HATE Kerry. They think he'll be a completely different President than he claims now and they don't trust him as far as they can throw him, but hate is too strong of a word. Frustrated is more accurate.

Meanwhile I'm not surprised some liberal nut hasn't tried to assassinate Bush.

And yes, I know that you could use your little simplistic formula on my post, but it still wouldn't make it any more accurate even if it makes you feel smarter.

[BreakABone]

Now, I have yet to quite gasp the meaning of what the hell a liberal or conservative is? I mean I've pretty much seen it's use, but why do they seem to have such negative connations these days? :confused:

As for Kerry's voting record, I'm sure it should be taken into account when you look at the two, but Bush has no voting record so I don't think it's entirely fair. On the other hand, Bush has been President for four years and he is promising things now that he could of done in the four years he was President prior. I don't know why anyone would be shocked at hollow promises made by candidates. I mean it sounds good in a speech, but a lot of what either is saying isn't really possible with how they are saying it. Both sides eat it up anyhow.

I think they both have their shares of problems, like it's been mentioned in this thread, they are human. And what is so wrong with having a human in the White House?

Some folks are against a President who can't make up his mind. Others are against a President who will make up his mind, and no matter how bone-headed a decision he makes will spear right through it.

Some want a President who can articulate himself and doesn't make a parody of their languages. Others don't care as long as he gets his points across.. eventually.

[Blackmane]

I don't hate Kerry, and that should be clear from my posts. I think I give sound reasons why I support Bush in his desisions and why I think Kerry would make a bad president. I don't go around and say things about Kerry that many of you do with Bush (ie. suggesting things like Bush=Hitler=Satan; Bush is an idiot). Those are hateful things.

And I don't believe I am higher than anyone else with different views, I just believe I am different and, hopefully, informed in things they might not be.

Now, I know I can't speak for all Republicans, but seriously. There is so much negativity towards Bush, it isn't even funny. It's this emotional explosion that is pointed his way, and it is horriblie.

[Typhoid]

(ie. suggesting things like Bush=Hitler=Satan; Bush is an idiot).


Who said he was on the same level as Satan or Hitler? Who openly claimed him to be an idiot. I dont think anyone did.

[Blackmane]

Who said he was on the same level as Satan or Hitler? Who openly claimed him to be an idiot. I dont think anyone did.

(ie. suggesting things like Bush=Hitler=Satan; Bush is an idiot).

I never said directly, but if someone is dumb enough not to pick up on it, then they don't deserve to own a computer. J/k, but come on.

Pictures of Bush as Hitler, endless comments and satires on his speech impediments, so many messed up phrases and "Bushisms", the list goes on.