Perfect Dark, not until 2005

[Crash]

.......WTF.....




































3 titles will be released this year by Rare (wow, they are beginning to live up to their name, it's rare that you see a game) None of these games is PD:0, or Conker: Live and Uncut... talk about a microsoft money pit.

[Bond]

Where did you hear this?

[Jonbo298]

At least we all know Microsoft is making good use of Rare *sarcasm*

[Crash]

it's in the new GameInformer magazine, i recommend getting it, it's a huge issue.

[Canyarion]

lol. Rare has issues. Microsoft has Rare. Microsoft has issues.

[TheGame]

Ugh... they should delay all of there other crap to come out AFTER PD:0

Oh well, my measuring stick for Rare is only Perfect Dark, I don't care if every other game they make is complete garbage. (Same goes for Bungie and Halo)

[Perfect Stu]

no Conker, PD in 2004?

F*CK

[Jonbo298]

Anyone seen the new look for Conker? I dont like it.

http://xboxmedia.ign.com/xbox/image/conker_042904_01_1083304849.jpg

[GT News]

Anyone seen the new look for Conker? I dont like it.

http://xboxmedia.ign.com/xbox/image/conker_042904_01_1083304849.jpg

That input matched my default category.
What don't you like about it?Try saying that with more or less context.
Can you tell me any gossip?
My brain contains 43347 categories, but not one that matches your last input.

[TheGame]

Are you sure that's how he will always look or is that just through that multi player mode?

[Dark Samurai]

He looks as gay as ever.

[TheGame]

He looks as gay as ever.

http://n64media.ign.com/media/previews/image/twelvetales5.jpg

http://n64media.ign.com/media/previews/image/twelvetales1.jpg

http://n64media.ign.com/media/previews/image/twelvetales4.jpg

http://ign64.ign.com/objects/002/002154.html?ui=gamefinder

Oh... he's not that gay ;)

[Dark Samurai]

Agreed...

[Perfect Stu]

Anyone seen the new look for Conker? I dont like it.

of course you dont...

[Jonbo298]

of course you dont...

:hmm::confused:

[Null]

i guess maybe if you dont like it your a fanboy? *shrugs*

:p

[Jonbo298]

i guess maybe if you dont like it your a fanboy? *shrugs*

:p

I dunno. I'm confused on his response.

[Perfect Stu]

what were the chances that you were going to like one of Rare's characters that now belongs to MS instead of Nintendo? honestly?

for some reason your answer "I dont like it" didnt surprise me.

[Null]

could be that he just doesnt like it. :hmm:

[Perfect Stu]

could be that he just doesnt like it. :hmm:

of course it could be

[Jonbo298]

I dont like the look of Conker. What's wrong with that? They made him too furry. He doesnt look similar to his '64 counterpart. blah blah blah, I know its the XBox now, but they made him too furry.

[Bond]

So if Rare made Conker this same "too furry" look on the Nintendo GameCube you would feel the same way? Because you have to admit Rare was praised a lot around here when they were owned by Nintendo, and now that they are owned by Microsoft they are borderline hated.

[Perfect Stu]

So if Rare made Conker this same "too furry" look on the Nintendo GameCube you would feel the same way? Because you have to admit Rare was praised a lot around here when they were owned by Nintendo, and now that they are owned by Microsoft they are borderline hated.

someone knows where I'm coming from

I'm not accusing you of anything, Jonbo...jumping to conclusions is a waste of time and effort...but I agree with Bond...I question your genuinity/sincerity due to possibly a clouded judgement

[Hero2]

Well rare was alot bigger newer and fresher when they were with Nintendo. They havent had a game thats stood out since then. ecept Conker and PD:0 and those arnt out yet and they keep crapping out on dates witch is not good for there rep. and you cant call me a fanboy for ninteno and have it be true I hate my gamecube and regret buying the peice of crap.

[Null]

IMO, you guys are sounding just as clouded, opposite of what your saying about him.


So if Rare made Conker this same "too furry" look on the Nintendo GameCube you would feel the same way? Because you have to admit Rare was praised a lot around here when they were owned by Nintendo, and now that they are owned by Microsoft they are borderline hated.


You have to admit, there is a HUGE difference from thier nintendo days.

In thier nintendo days they made some of the best games on the console. They started going downhill at the end of the nintendo days. i cant help but think a lot of xbox fans didnt pick up on this because of the excitment of getting rare. But starfox sucked. and whatever game that was they released since... grabbed by the goulies? even worse. Many magazines have already pointed out when they showed conker that it looked like a snoozer and saying that kameo looks kinda :gay:
People started making mention of rares lack of quality when they were still with nintendo (except of course for the uber fans who would never say such :p )

Maybe the reason they're delaying these games is that they're working on making them a lot lot better, but untill i personally see another good one from them. i cant help but feel as they're losing it. it has nothing to do with nintendo.
I really hope they turn out some good ones. expecially one with the power of grabbing fans like PD.

[Jonbo298]

So if Rare made Conker this same "too furry" look on the Nintendo GameCube you would feel the same way? Because you have to admit Rare was praised a lot around here when they were owned by Nintendo, and now that they are owned by Microsoft they are borderline hated.

YES, I would feel the same way. Jesus, I'm not a flaming raging Nintendo fanboy.

[The Germanator]

I used to be one of the biggest Rare fanboys around, needless to say I was quite crushed when they went to Microsoft. However, they've really done nothing this generation to prove that they were worth the hype. If they had released a new Banjo Kazooie or Perfect Dark by now, I'd sure as hell have an Xbox in my room at this moment. That day still may come. I may very well buy an Xbox just for the Rare games if they start being what they used to be. Otherwise, if they continue to stay in this lull, I'll thank them for the couple hundred bucks they saved me by not having to buy an Xbox.

PS: I think Conker looks OK. I sort of like the fur detail...It's in no way a surprise to me that his appearance has changed a bit, this is a big leap in terms of power from the Nintendo 64 after all...Plus, it's just character design, I'm not sure why anyone is really arguing about it. It's not as if anyone said that the game would suck, it's just the character design in some early art..

[GT News]

I used to be one of the biggest Rare fanboys around, needless to say I was quite crushed when they went to Microsoft. However, they've really done nothing this generation to prove that they were worth the hype. If they had released a new Banjo Kazooie or Perfect Dark by now, I'd sure as hell have an Xbox in my room at this moment. That day still may come. I may very well buy an Xbox just for the Rare games if they start being what they used to be. Otherwise, if they continue to stay in this lull, I'll thank them for the couple hundred bucks they saved me by not having to buy an Xbox.

PS: I think Conker looks OK. I sort of like the fur detail...It's in no way a surprise to me that his appearance has changed a bit, this is a big leap in terms of power from the Nintendo 64 after all...Plus, it's just character design, I'm not sure why anyone is really arguing about it. It's not as if anyone said that the game would suck, it's just the character design in some early art..

By now you do not do be one of the biggest Rare fanboys around needless to say he or she was quite crushed when they went to Microsoft anymore?You think they've really done nothing this generation to prove that they were worth the hype is superior to ALICE?Let's wait and see what they do."Who is the best robot" day still may come ?
Makes sense to me.Do you think your plan will succeed?In that case: Let's wait and see what they do.OK. Why? You think Conker looks is superior to ALICE?You are not the only one.

I'm not sure if I like the fur detail
.
What is it like?Are there any other ones someplace else?You're kidding.
character design he or she is not sure why anyone is really arguing about it is?It seemed like it was.
I've heard of it before.

[The Germanator]

By now you do not do be one of the biggest Rare fanboys around needless to say he or she was quite crushed when they went to Microsoft anymore?You think they've really done nothing this generation to prove that they were worth the hype is superior to ALICE?Let's wait and see what they do."Who is the best robot" day still may come ?
Makes sense to me.Do you think your plan will succeed?In that case: Let's wait and see what they do.OK. Why? You think Conker looks is superior to ALICE?You are not the only one.

I'm not sure if I like the fur detail
.
What is it like?Are there any other ones someplace else?You're kidding.
character design he or she is not sure why anyone is really arguing about it is?It seemed like it was.
I've heard of it before.

**** your gibberish.

[GT News]

By now you do not do be one of the biggest Rare fanboys around needless to say he or she was quite crushed when they went to Microsoft anymore?You think they've really done nothing this generation to prove that they were worth the hype is superior to ALICE?Let's wait and see what they do."Who is the best robot" day still may come ?
Makes sense to me.Do you think your plan will succeed?In that case: Let's wait and see what they do.OK. Why? You think Conker looks is superior to ALICE?You are not the only one.

I'm not sure if I like the fur detail
.
What is it like?Are there any other ones someplace else?You're kidding.
character design he or she is not sure why anyone is really arguing about it is?It seemed like it was.
I've heard of it before.

**** your gibberish.

Are you a student?

[The Germanator]

Yes, could you tell by my foul language?

[Null]

Are you a student?


lol. pwned :P

[TheGame]

I remember the days when people here were salivating over one little funky screenshot of Kameo, and when people were saying Rare was Nintendo's answer for Square at the Sony camp... hmm, I've been going to these (and Nintendose/nintendodolphin.net) forums for 4 years now... hmm...

[Canyarion]

Yeah well that was in the period when we were playing Golden Eye, Banjo Kazooie and Perfect Dark. :rolleyes: Now look what we have: SFA and Grabbed by the Ghoulies....

[TheGame]

Yeah well that was in the period when we were playing Golden Eye, Banjo Kazooie and Perfect Dark. :rolleyes: Now look what we have: SFA and Grabbed by the Ghoulies....

A early generation game that was overhauled to put a Nintendo licened character in it and the first obviously rushed game Rare makes for Xbox... real fair comparison. That's about as valid as Square fans saying Squaresoft seemed to be losing there touch when Bouncer was released on Ps2.

I'd rather not jump to conclusions until Conker, Banjo, or (most importantly) Perfect Dark is released... until then I take all bitching about rare as people here being mad Rare left Nintendo.

[Null]

And i'll take some as ppl being mad, and some as ppl just seeing whats infront of them.
on the flip side i'll take some that refuse to see it as people clinging to a hope that ms didnt waste money on rare.

;) not that thats anyone here. just yanno. in general :p

[TheGame]

And i'll take some as ppl being mad, and some as ppl just seeing whats infront of them.
on the flip side i'll take some that refuse to see it as people clinging to a hope that ms didnt waste money on rare.

;) not that thats anyone here. just yanno. in general :p

I see what's in front of me just like the next guy... I didn't expect SFA or GBG to be any better than they were. I just find it funny that people bash them and say they a crap for games that weren't a part of what made rare good in the first place.

Hey... I'l admit... I'm a perfect dark fanboy. Until they burn me and make a crappy version of Perfect dark (or a crappy FPS in general) I will be clinging on to the fact that Rare hasn't shown there post sale potential yet. If rare was still with Nintendo I would think the same exact way (even though in that case they would have much less excuses for having GBG and SFA being there last two games).

[Null]

i didnt say you. ;) hehe

[Blix]

So if Rare made Conker this same "too furry" look on the Nintendo GameCube you would feel the same way? Because you have to admit Rare was praised a lot around here when they were owned by Nintendo, and now that they are owned by Microsoft they are borderline hated.

I don't like the model either and I don't think there's anything biased in it. I personally would hate it the same if it was in the GC. And really, are you that impressed with what rare has done so far this generation? Rare hasn't really made me happy of owning one of their games since the late N64 days (Perfect Dark and Conker being the only two exceptions). I was hoping for the company to return to its roots of great gameplay mechanics and productivity but man, my patience isn't infite. Star Fox left a bad taste in me and the company takes foever and a day to make one game now. Not only that but Rare now kept only their name becuase most of their talent went away.I.e. they're pretty much an empty shell IMO. So who knows how the games might turn out to be? I am still expecting PD and Conker but this conker model (Suposing it is not a joke. And I think they changed Perfect Dark to cell shading which is really far from what the series began like) is really bringing my hopes even lower. If they don't really deliver with these games I might just forget about the existence of the company.

So this goes from waaaaay before the company was bought by Microsoft. Really, I think it's a cheap scapegoat to frame every one who dislikes rare stuff now as a fanboy. You better come up with something else.

[Jonbo298]

"Can't be a joke. Came straight from IGN"

[TheGame]

Heh heh heh

I don't like the model either and I don't think there's anything biased in it. I personally would hate it the same if it was in the GC.

Well, that's good to know ;)

And really, are you that impressed with what rare has done so far this generation?

No... but do I have to be impressed? Do you watch sports? Think of Rare as a star player traded early in the season... you can't expect him to be an MVP again just because it's him, he has to get used to his surroundings and eventually will fit into the team, and be good. Oh, and think of Star Fox adventures as that player's last effort on his old team before he got traded (and he knew he was getting traded, which took away the desire to perform well)

Anybody in to sports will understand what I mean... if you are not, well, the fact is Rare hasn't burned me on the titles I liked from them, thus I'm not passing judgment. I think your expectations are just set a little too high, did you honestly like EVERY single game Rare released on N64 and SNES?

I bet if Nintendo was sold to Microsoft and the only game they made for the first year was Mario party 4, a true Nintendo fan wouldn't call them crap and would patently wait for them to screw over Mario or Zelda (which they did to a certain extent ;))... that's how my relationship with Rare is working, GBG is just like Mario party to a Nintendo fan, not somthing I would use to measure the state of a certain company. I'll patently wait for them to screw up Perfect Dark before I kick MS in the nuts for buying them.

As for the developers leaving the company... remember, only the original company can completly rip off everythiong that made the last game great. Also, I'm sure they have enough developers around from the old game to reproduce it, I don't think Microsoft is that stupid...

And I think they changed Perfect Dark to cell shading which is really far from what the series began like) is really bringing my hopes even lower.

Where did you hear that? I only heard that they are changing the Joanna Dark Model, and not the whole game to cell shading...

Also, Microsoft isn't a scape goat for why people are bashing rare so bad nowadays, it's the only reason they are getting bashed. The fact is, once rare left Nintendo Rare became the enemy to most, and people started to bring out all there flaws. It has nothing to do with there preformance on Xbox... I remember when rare said they will try to release 5 games for Xbox in it's first year. Nintendo fans "Oh no! Microsoft is ruining them by making them release too much too fast, they won't give them the time to make there games great like nintendo did"... Now microsoft gives them time: "Oh, rare is crap, they haven't released a good game in years... even though SFA got decent scores and GBG is rushed I'd rather ignore everything buy these two games and call them crap"

Yes... people who bash Rare right now piss me off. But oh well, bitch all you want, eventually the truth will come out. If the truth is that they are bad, or good, I'd rather wait and see before passing judgment on such bad examples.

[Blix]

Heh heh heh



Well, that's good to know ;)



No... but do I have to be impressed? Do you watch sports? Think of Rare as a star player traded early in the season... you can't expect him to be an MVP again just because it's him, he has to get used to his surroundings and eventually will fit into the team, and be good. Oh, and think of Star Fox adventures as that player's last effort on his old team before he got traded (and he knew he was getting traded, which took away the desire to perform well)

Anybody in to sports will understand what I mean... if you are not, well, the fact is Rare hasn't burned me on the titles I liked from them, thus I'm not passing judgment. I think your expectations are just set a little too high, did you honestly like EVERY single game Rare released on N64 and SNES?

I bet if Nintendo was sold to Microsoft and the only game they made for the first year was Mario party 4, a true Nintendo fan wouldn't call them crap and would patently wait for them to screw over Mario or Zelda (which they did to a certain extent ;))... that's how my relationship with Rare is working, GBG is just like Mario party to a Nintendo fan, not somthing I would use to measure the state of a certain company. I'll patently wait for them to screw up Perfect Dark before I kick MS in the nuts for buying them.

As for the developers leaving the company... remember, only the original company can completly rip off everythiong that made the last game great. Also, I'm sure they have enough developers around from the old game to reproduce it, I don't think Microsoft is that stupid...



Where did you hear that? I only heard that they are changing the Joanna Dark Model, and not the whole game to cell shading...

Also, Microsoft isn't a scape goat for why people are bashing rare so bad nowadays, it's the only reason they are getting bashed. The fact is, once rare left Nintendo Rare became the enemy to most, and people started to bring out all there flaws. It has nothing to do with there preformance on Xbox... I remember when rare said they will try to release 5 games for Xbox in it's first year. Nintendo fans "Oh no! Microsoft is ruining them by making them release too much too fast, they won't give them the time to make there games great like nintendo did"... Now microsoft gives them time: "Oh, rare is crap, they haven't released a good game in years... even though SFA got decent scores and GBG is rushed I'd rather ignore everything buy these two games and call them crap"

Yes... people who bash Rare right now piss me off. But oh well, bitch all you want, eventually the truth will come out. If the truth is that they are bad, or good, I'd rather wait and see before passing judgment on such bad examples.
Before continuing I'd like to explain that since this thread was pretty much about rare games coming out after a long time I thought Concker's model was a joke as in he looks reaaally old in that pic. I always liked it that Conker looks cute but is really a devil and that was part of what made the game fun. I don't see any reason for them to put that effect (or at least in the exagerated way they did) there. About Johana's model... I said I wasn't sure just that I thought they had changed it. The only thing I saw was the model.Having that out of the way I'll continue with the topic at hand.

I'm not a big fan of any sport, and really I think if I'm to follow your analogy, rare has been showing decadence since the N64 days. They don't produce nearly as much and in their last games they have just made games that depend waay to much on senseless collecting. The fact that you aren't impressed shows they're not in the same level as before.

Getting used to its sorroundings? What are you talking about? They had begun development on Dinasour planet since before the GC had begun. They were one of the first companies to have development kits (had begun development on that game years before that) yet took a considerable amount of time to make the game - They could have at least fixed the inecessary collecting in the game in that time and show they learned from DK64's errors. Now they have MS backing them up and the Xbox is easy to work with. Even if they had to get used to whatever sorroundings it is you're talking about I don't think it should take THIS much time.

I had put as an example in the past (not sure if in this thread) the fact that Factor 5 could make a whole game -and add the latest sound technology in the last three months of development- in just around 8 or 9 months -Can't remember exactly how much. You might be right in that I may be setting my hopes too high for them. I'll give you the benefit of doubt there but after waiting so long for SFA (and other games too) and it not coming near my expectations I think it is inevitable to be like this.

It's also interesting that you claim you have read people being negative after Rare being sold to MS. I don't remember anybody being THAT optimistic in any forum I went to. Without any kind of sarcasm I say I'd like to know where you read people saying that stuff. The way I remember it, people were really quiet about them. All I ever read after that were vague comments which I wouldn't really say were optimistic. After all, they had nothing to praise them for at the moment since the company was inactive. But I only come here and to gamingforce so I'll give you the benefit of doubt here also. I just don't like to go to places where threads are pretty much like "Ohhh, I'm so right and you're so wrong111111eleven111eleven" 'No, you're so wrong and I'm oh so right!!!!!1one1111one111one!'

The difference between the Nintendo example and the rare example is that Nintendo takes a lot less time to develop games and they haven't really let me down on a game I was really anticipating (Unlike SFA). I am giving them a chance to redeem themself with PD (Had you read my last post closely you would have noticed) so I don't see why you are saying I'm not giving them a chance. I have much more to write but have to go now. I'll continue when I get home.

Edit: Back home.

I can also understand some people saying that Nintendo "screwed Mario and Zelda to a certain level) since they were trying something new. Had Rare tried something new I'd be in the same stance about them. But like I said, they just repeated the same errors. The bottom line... Nintendo may have its ups and downs but Rare seems to have stuck in a down and I'm still waiting for them to get their up.

And to finish my "bitching" let me remind you what started your "bitching". One guy says he doesn't like the Conker's model and you go on saying he has hard feelings towards rare and is a fanboy. I already made it clear why one can not like Conker's new model. I can't accept Paranoia as a way to measure other's opinions and that's just what that is: Paranoia. It's not like they can't feel frustrated about Rare. As Stu already said, it's pointless to try to come to conclusions about what might have caused some one to think they way he or she does. So, until you have some better argument I'll just consider this a cheap scapegoat. I hope I made myself clear and that you understand, if not... Oh well...

[TheGame]

Ha... nice to see someone responded while I was gone.

Your post wasn't laid out very well, so I'm going to take it one topic at a time:

1) What the topic is about and who started the "bitching"

"And to finish my "bitching" let me remind you what started your "bitching". One guy says he doesn't like the Conker's model and you go on saying he has hard feelings towards rare and is a fanboy."

Maybe you should take a second look at the begining of the thread... I wasn't swaying it off topic, others were. I called nobody a fanboy, and my first post to even look off topic came at the end of the second page where I was just saying what I had seen over time.

2) Rare and new surroundings

You underestimate how hard making a switch like that is. Rare was loved in the N64 days but they were never a developer who could toss out high end games fast... period.

As for SFA, it's delays had nothing to do with Game quality, It was coming up on the end of the N64 generation and they decided to change it to gamecube... so all the work they put into it was ripped down and built back up on GCN. Then, after that, Nintendo decided to change the game to have a Nintendo licenced character in it... did they do this because it wouldn't sell without Star Fox on it, or because they were about to sell Rare and wanted to keep it exclusive? We'll never know... On top of that undenied Rumors of Rare being sold were circling around the net before Star Fox was even released. If Rare knew they were getting sold wouldn't they want to wrap up there last GCN projects? Thus rushing a game that was delayed out.

Also, Rare didn't know who they were getting sold to, and had no reason to start to learn and perfect development on Xbox. Upon getting sold they had the option to port or rebuild games from the ground up, looking at the amount of time Kameo is taking I think they are rebuilding.

Don't compare someone like factor 5 to Rare... Rare never was one to just unload a ton of great games without long development cycles, and in there prime (on N64) they were slower than they had ever been. You are expecting them to adapt to a whole new company and hardware in less than 2 years when it took them more 2 years to make a game on hardware they understood and had masterd (N64)... yes, you are expecting too much. If Rare was getting games out fast they wouldn't be the same Rare they were on N64.

3) Nintendo/Rare comparision

"The difference between the Nintendo example and the rare example is that Nintendo takes a lot less time to develop games and they haven't really let me down on a game I was really anticipating (Unlike SFA). "

No, the difference is that you simply like Nintendo's games more than Rare's and Nintendo has yet to go through the same situation as Rare...

"I am giving them a chance to redeem themself with PD (Had you read my last post closely you would have noticed) so I don't see why you are saying I'm not giving them a chance"

I wasn't refering directly to you when I said people aren't giving Rare a chance. But at the same time I am... Your wounds may run deep with Rare, but mine don't. SFA and GBG are games I'm turning a blind eye to because I didn't expect them to be good, I wasn't anticipating them, and those games in no way could have influenced my opinion on Rare.

You, on the other hand, were expecting SFA to somehow be better than previous Rare Adventure games? It's your fault for expecting too much. SFA still got decent scores, and from what I have played it felt just like a Rare game. Like Breakabone said, Rare is hit and miss with there adventure games... some people love (BanjoK, JFG, and Conker) and some people hate (BanjoT and DK). SFA was neither crap nor great, and I didn't expect anything more than what I got out of it.

Expectations are the base of opinions, so in my opinion your expectations were way too high. I mean, what exactly made you think SFA would be great? The second they put star fox on it I could tell there would be problems.

4) Microsoft used as a scapegoat for Rare bashing

There was only one person in the forums I remember who used to bash Rare left and right, and that was gekko. But everybody hated gekko. There was no major foul talk about Rare here until they were sold to microsoft, and that is a fact. I can see that as a lame excuse all you want, but everything points toward people looking down upon Rare more now that they are with MS.

Like I said before, I prefer to wait until there flagship titles come out then bitch about them now like you are. I don't care if they lost 99.9% of there developers and if SFA and GBG were the worst two games released in gaming history, until they screw up Pefect Dark, I'm not judging them. But that's me, you can set your unreasonably high expectations wherever you want them.

[Jonbo298]

Jesus christ people, all I said was I dont like the look of Conker. I never said anything about its gameplay, or in fact ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL besides that I dont like the way he looks.

[Blix]

Ha... nice to see someone responded while I was gone.
I don't know how to take this commentary. A joke? Something serious? In any case, I have to deal with a lot of things in College and you replied while I couldn't respond (And I still have a pretty busy schedule just so you know). So, I'd say we're even)

Your post wasn't laid out very well, so I'm going to take it one topic at a time:
Sorry about that. I prefer to post inside quotes and go step by step -like you did- but since you had already done it with my post I didn't want it to get really messy.

1) What the topic is about and who started the "bitching"

"And to finish my "bitching" let me remind you what started your "bitching". One guy says he doesn't like the Conker's model and you go on saying he has hard feelings towards rare and is a fanboy."

Maybe you should take a second look at the begining of the thread... I wasn't swaying it off topic, others were. I called nobody a fanboy, and my first post to even look off topic came at the end of the second page where I was just saying what I had seen over time.

I know that, I quoted Bond the first time ( and you backed him up and got on his side ;) ). You think like him and if Bond hadn't implied his idea was biased you would have done it in his place because. At the very end it would not be the first time you do it. In other threads you are among the first to bring out the "Nintendo fanboys" argument. I could use that "I didn't refer to you directly, but at the same time I did." thing you said.

2) Rare and new surroundings

You underestimate how hard making a switch like that is.
Please elaborate.
Rare was loved in the N64 days but they were never a developer who could toss out high end games fast... period.

As for SFA, it's delays had nothing to do with Game quality, It was coming up on the end of the N64 generation and they decided to change it to gamecube... so all the work they put into it was ripped down and built back up on GCN. Then, after that, Nintendo decided to change the game to have a Nintendo licenced character in it... did they do this because it wouldn't sell without Star Fox on it, or because they were about to sell Rare and wanted to keep it exclusive? We'll never know... On top of that undenied Rumors of Rare being sold were circling around the net before Star Fox was even released. If Rare knew they were getting sold wouldn't they want to wrap up there last GCN projects? Thus rushing a game that was delayed out.

They still had one to two (impresive) game(s) out a year. Starfox was impressive in graphics but that was pretty much all. They had always managed to have something fresh. Conker was mainly about the jokes. JFG had you killing everybody until you could finally get to the next level and the hidden spaceships on the stages to get you to hidden stages and such. SFA felt like playing Zelda with part of the collecting of DK64 which wasn't what I was expecting.With all the extra time they had while they (suposing you're right) started out all the models and stuff they could have worked on the collecting issue, but it seems they didn't. I hope that gets you a clear view of why I was (in a certain way) let down.The game did feel like a Rare game, I never said it didn't. And actually, why would Star Fox make the game any worse/better? I was actually happy to see Star Fox in a new way.


Also, Rare didn't know who they were getting sold to, and had no reason to start to learn and perfect development on Xbox. Upon getting sold they had the option to port or rebuild games from the ground up, looking at the amount of time Kameo is taking I think they are rebuilding.

I don't see why they would have to rebuild it. There must be some things they can just port. Seeing all the ports there are, and the little difference there is in graphics... I don't think it would have been that huge of a problem.
Don't compare someone like factor 5 to Rare... Rare never was one to just unload a ton of great games without long development cycles, and in there prime (on N64) they were slower than they had ever been. You are expecting them to adapt to a whole new company and hardware in less than 2 years when it took them more 2 years to make a game on hardware they understood and had masterd (N64)... yes, you are expecting too much. If Rare was getting games out fast they wouldn't be the same Rare they were on N64.
I know they were never ones to make games fast. But the N64 was considerably hard to work with. I remember Shigueru Miyamoto saying the GC was a whole lot easier to program for and then someone from MS claiming the Xbox was easier than the GC. I think that at least it should be around the level of the GC. And even then they still had at least one game out a year. I don't think it should take them THIS LONG to make a game. Suposing they had begun learning how to develop for the Xbox on 2002... why is it taking them more than two years for those games? PD; 2005. Conker; 2005. Kameo; 2005? GBG seems just like they're tryiing to say: Hey, we did something! " and excuse themself. It's not that it's taking its time, it's that it's taking WAAAAY TOO MUCH TIME even when I take into consideration they weren't that fast (but they weren't this slow either).

And Frankly, the money they were going to make for selling the game on the GC was the same they would have made in the Xbox (Except faster). I don't see how they would have rushed the game. In the very end this is all about the money and the game was the last one they'd see selling for some time (although I am unsure of how GBG did, but I haven't heard anything extraordinary about it). And it would have left them better expectations for the next game if they had made it better. They could have taken more time to finish it if that was the reason. They could since Nintendo had the deal with them before MS.

3) Nintendo/Rare comparision

"The difference between the Nintendo example and the rare example is that Nintendo takes a lot less time to develop games and they haven't really let me down on a game I was really anticipating (Unlike SFA). "

No, the difference is that you simply like Nintendo's games more than Rare's and Nintendo has yet to go through the same situation as Rare...

Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, JFG, Conker... Dang, you're so dead wrong here. I think I had express it here that I needed a fix of PD and that a friend of mine has taken my 64 away so I was angry. Just for comparisons I don't need (or will need) a fix of OOT in the near future. You assume too much (which is what this debate is all about.) I don't think Nintendo would take so long to get used to it's new sorroundings and/or wouldn't have a good game out by now on MS if they had been sold to them by the same time as Rare either. So, same case, different results.

"I am giving them a chance to redeem themself with PD (Had you read my last post closely you would have noticed) so I don't see why you are saying I'm not giving them a chance"

I wasn't refering directly to you when I said people aren't giving Rare a chance. But at the same time I am... Your wounds may run deep with Rare, but mine don't. SFA and GBG are games I'm turning a blind eye to because I didn't expect them to be good, I wasn't anticipating them, and those games in no way could have influenced my opinion on Rare.
Can't I be unhappy at the moment for their current condition? The thing is that you want me to be happy at the moment when their situation is worse (or bad for the first time IMO) than when they were on the 64. They were far more productive (http://www.rareware.com/games/timeline/all_timeline.html) at that time and had games I actually enjoyed a lot. When Nintendo makes something you don't like you are one of the first people to point out how the situation isn't what you'd like it to be and how other companies are better. That's right, you don't think positive about how the other games might be better. You go on saying how things are at the moment. It doesn't mean they can't get better, it doesn't mean either that you are biased or have hard feelings or anything againts the company (right?). I think I deserve the same right.
You, on the other hand, were expecting SFA to somehow be better than previous Rare Adventure games? It's your fault for expecting too much. SFA still got decent scores, and from what I have played it felt just like a Rare game. Like Breakabone said, Rare is hit and miss with there adventure games... some people love (BanjoK, JFG, and Conker) and some people hate (BanjoT and DK). SFA was neither crap nor great, and I didn't expect anything more than what I got out of it.
I stated my reasons above. I was expecting something new in the game. Not necessary a whole complete concept, but at least a certain degree of new things in the game.
Expectations are the base of opinions,I agree so in my opinion your expectations were way too high What did you expect me to expect from them? Something not as good as what I had seen them make? Another DK was not something I expected. I mean, what exactly made you think SFA would be great? The second they put star fox on it I could tell there would be problems. Yup, read up there!

4) Microsoft used as a scapegoat for Rare bashing

There was only one person in the forums I remember who used to bash Rare left and right, and that was gekko. But everybody hated gekko. There was no major foul talk about Rare here until they were sold to microsoft, and that is a fact. I can see that as a lame excuse all you want, but everything points toward people looking down upon Rare more now that they are with MS.

Let me express it yet again. I think their situation is actually bad at the moment. I don't care if they're with MS or Sony or Nintendo or whatever, I've simply not had a reason to be happy about them in a long time. Not that I am not expecting their new games (Cuz I sure as heck will bye PD, Conker and most probably Cameo.) or have lost all my faith in the company. It's just that. And when I make a bad comment about Rare, I am not doing so because I feel bad (or "Wounded") I do it because I simply don't like what's going on. Can you quote me on ever saying something pesimist about them? The only thing I remember ever saying was that PD may be overshadowed by Halo and you were convinced by my reasons (Well, you never replied after listening to my reasons and I know you're not one to shut up

Like I said before, I prefer to wait until there flagship titles come out then bitch about them now like you are. I don't care if they lost 99.9% of there developers and if SFA and GBG were the worst two games released in gaming history, until they screw up Pefect Dark, I'm not judging them. But that's me, you can set your unreasonably high expectations wherever you want them.
The thing here is how I feel and how you're making me look. I don't know how many times I have to say I am looking foward their future games for you to get that into your head. I am not satisfied with what they have done but that doesn't mean I'm not giving them a chance or anything. It just means the last two games, which you didn't care about but I did, have left a bad taste in me. Now, is that reason enough for you to say that I am being "pessimist" becuase they are with MS? No! If you had cared about those games and not got what you were expecting, how would you feel? I supose like how we will both feel if they mess up PD, right? You can say I set the standard too high but, like I said, I was expecting a game with Rare's standards. Was it not to be excpeted from... Rare? Just to point out something... I am currently not happy with Pikmin. There, happy?

Notice how I have never gone bashing out either game (I had to make some points here so that's the only reason I pointed out SFA;s flaws). I am not a person who likes to point out flaws and stuff about games. I think there's more than enough people willing to do so, so I leave it to them. But when I see another person saying something and being in his right to, and then see how another person tries to invalidate his opinion by framing them... that just pisses me off. I personally won't let anyone intimidate me with such things or belittle my opinion. Do I think there are some people who may have hard feelings towards them and are biased? You bet I do. Just like there are PS2 and Xbox fanboys too. But you just seem to want to skip the debating and go straight into labeling them.

[Professor S]

Let me break this down for everyone:

Rare with Nintendo

"Rare is the best developer ever!! I want to knob them!!"
*globglobglob*
"Oh Rare tastes SOOO GOOD!!!"

Rare with Microsoft

"Rare is going downhill!!! GrabbedbytheGhouliesGrabbedbytheGhouliesGrabbedbytheGhoulies!!! MWAAAAHAHAHAA!!! Rare suxxors now and are a huge waste of money Perfect Dark will suck and NO I'm not unbalanced!!! ARRRGGHHH!!!"

Hey Nintendo fans! How bout we actually wait and see what Rare does with one of their major franchises before we write them off! Sounds like a plan to me, unless you desperate to see them fail now that they're with Microsoft and not your precious Gamecube...

This message was brought to you by the Foundation for Reality Checks.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Wahahah...

Where can I donate?

[Null]

Wahahah...

Where can I donate?


http://www.gametavern.net/forums/ht/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif




i've never been a rare fan, nor am i a nintendo fan.

but honestly. back in rares day. no one needed to say 'lets wait for rares big franchises" They were all the big ones. i havnt seen one good game from them since thoes days. neither on GC or Xbox.


And strangler, they very oppsite is true about MS fanboys.

Rare with Nintendo...
oh they're nothing good or special. kiddy games. all kiddy games, thats the only kind they can make.

Rare with Microsoft...
They arnt going downhill!!! your just a fanboy jealous that they left!!! lets wait till the real games come out!!!! Rare is awsome!!


thier big games might very well be good, and i hope they are for rares sake. but i still feel they arent as well off as they once were.

[Professor S]

http://www.gametavern.net/forums/ht/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif




i've never been a rare fan, nor am i a nintendo fan.

but honestly. back in rares day. no one needed to say 'lets wait for rares big franchises" They were all the big ones. i havnt seen one good game from them since thoes days. neither on GC or Xbox.


And strangler, they very oppsite is true about MS fanboys.

Rare with Nintendo...
oh they're nothing good or special. kiddy games. all kiddy games, thats the only kind they can make.

Rare with Microsoft...
They arnt going downhill!!! your just a fanboy jealous that they left!!! lets wait till the real games come out!!!! Rare is awsome!!


thier big games might very well be good, and i hope they are for rares sake. but i still feel they arent as well off as they once were.

Actually from the very beginning I personally never had much stake in the whole Rare worship thing. I though Conker was overrated and the only Rare game I really loved was Goldeneye.

I just can't help but notice how when Rare moved to Microsoft all of their defenders suddenly bailed on them and waited with anticipation to pounce on Grabbed by the Ghoulies (a game that was never hyped to be that great to begin with, even by Rare). And while you have a point about how MS fans are exactly the opposite, MS fans are usually defending Rare once the Nintendo fans start in on them.

I'm just saying we should wait and see what happens with games like Kameo and Perfect Dark 0, games that Rare itself are pushing. All this Rare hating smacks of hippocrisy if you ask me.

[Null]

Actually from the very beginning I personally never had much stake in the whole Rare worship thing. I though Conker was overrated and the only Rare game I really loved was Goldeneye.

right on there. goldeneye was the only rare game i liked enough to buy.


I just can't help but notice how when Rare moved to Microsoft all of their defenders suddenly bailed on them and waited with anticipation to pounce on Grabbed by the Ghoulies (a game that was never hyped to be that great to begin with, even by Rare). And while you have a point about how MS fans are exactly the opposite, MS fans are usually defending Rare once the Nintendo fans start in on them.

Actually they started jumping on StarFox Adventures even before Goulies came out. And i understand what your saying about you noticing em like that, However, I seem to always notice how how thier attackers then, are always at thier side now.
It used to be the exact opposite. Nintendo fans would defend rare only after the MS fans would jump all over them about being kiddy games. It is quite interesting how the would can be so ironic with things like that.

I'm just saying we should wait and see what happens with games like Kameo and Perfect Dark 0, games that Rare itself are pushing. All this Rare hating smacks of hippocrisy if you ask me.

yes, and PD0 is an absolutly must for them to get right. Thats thier whole backbone right there. they need that game. I'm betting they're taking every step possible to assure that that game is good.

[TheGame]

"It used to be the exact opposite. Nintendo fans would defend rare only after the MS fans would jump all over them about being kiddy games. It is quite interesting how the would can be so ironic with things like that."-Null

I was a moderator at a website called funxbox.com in early 2001 all the way up to a few months Rare being sold... and I don't remember ANY Rare bashing over there. The only comments I remember were positive. Now, if you are talking about sony fanboys bashine Rare, then that's a whole nother story. ;)

Before MS there was some stupid "Rare vs Square" arguments going on around the net (I know, stupidity.), and Nintendo fans would bash Square, and Sony fans would bash Rare. Square ends up on GCN, and rare on Xbox, then all of a sudden Rare gets pounced on at Nintendo forums left and right. What happend to the Square bashing? Well, there is still some because FF:CC wasn't exactly a game everybody could play. ;)

-EDIT-

Oh, and Nemesis... I see your post but I'm not up to replying to it today, maybe monday :D

[BreakABone]

I would just like to point out that I've always thought Rare was a hit or miss company.

I prefer GoldenEye to Perfect Dark, damn talking computer head thing.

Banjo Kazookie is much better than Banjo Tooie.

Conker is ok, but I got bored. And let's not even talk about the letdown that was Donkey Kong 64.

Then they had Diddy Kong Racing, which I still prefer to Mario Kart 64.

Grabbed by Ghoulies was decent, but nothing to write home about.

I'll give em a chance with Conker, but after 3 years Kameo till looks like crap.

[Dark Samurai]

Grabbed by Ghoulies was decent, but nothing to write home about.

You played that monstrousity called a game?

[BreakABone]

You played that monstrousity called a game?

Yeah, one of my friends at school got it for an X-Mas gift I believe, and well he didn't touch it so I decided to try it out once.

It's not as bad as people make you believe, it's just very very bland.

[Blix]

"It used to be the exact opposite. Nintendo fans would defend rare only after the MS fans would jump all over them about being kiddy games. It is quite interesting how the would can be so ironic with things like that."-Null

I was a moderator at a website called funxbox.com in early 2001 all the way up to a few months Rare being sold... and I don't remember ANY Rare bashing over there. The only comments I remember were positive. Now, if you are talking about sony fanboys bashine Rare, then that's a whole nother story. ;)

Before MS there was some stupid "Rare vs Square" arguments going on around the net (I know, stupidity.), and Nintendo fans would bash Square, and Sony fans would bash Rare. Square ends up on GCN, and rare on Xbox, then all of a sudden Rare gets pounced on at Nintendo forums left and right. What happend to the Square bashing? Well, there is still some because FF:CC wasn't exactly a game everybody could play. ;)

-EDIT-

Oh, and Nemesis... I see your post but I'm not up to replying to it today, maybe monday :D
Square vs. Rare? What the...? Really, I have never seen any of that anywhere. You should give me a list of the forums you go to so I can get as far away as possible from ever being there. But really, if you search around there should be the same thing with Xbox and PS2 fans. Still you can't think all fans are the same and still you can't pass judgement on someone without listening to his/her reasons first.

[TheGame]

Square vs. Rare? What the...? Really, I have never seen any of that anywhere. You should give me a list of the forums you go to so I can get as far away as possible from ever being there.

Nintendodolphin.net, nintendose.com, nintendonation.com... too bad they are all gone now.