Physics problem

[Canyarion]

Ok I´m kinda in a debate with somebody on a different forum. We were talking about how Legolas fired 3 arrows at once into the Mûmakil (the big elephant).

I stated that by firing 3 arrows at once, every arrow would only have about 1/3 of the power that an arrow could have had if Legolas had fired only 1 at a time.

He asked his dad :rolleyes: that is supposed to be a math teacher and 'knows physics' and he says I'm wrong.

Anyway, this has to do with N=m*a. There's 3 times as much weight (m), Legolas' strenght remains the same (N) so a is 1/3 of what it would have been with 1 arrow... :hmm:

Less a means less speed, less speed means less damage...
But since you have 3 arrows, it makes up with the damage, so the total damage with 3 = the same as with 1.

So I'm right, he and his dad are wrong. :D

See the picture and tell me if I'm wrong or right please. :)

BTW the dude said that each arrow would have the power of a single-shot arrow.

[Blackmane]

Lemme go find out. Your view makes some sence but it may be oversimplifying this problem.

[ZebraRampage]

In my mind, what you said is just common sense. How could shooting three arrows at a time be more powerful than one. You're using the same about of power, but you have to put it into three arrows, giving them 1/3 of the power you give them, as opposed to giving all the power to the one arrow is you just shoot one. It's just common sense..

[Happydude]

you're wrong, because you don't put the power into te arrows...you put it into the string of the bow, which gives the arrows the push.

and since the power remains the same, the push remains the same for the arrows. so the power of the 3 arrows would be triple that of just 1. because each arrow gets the same push.

[thatmariolover]

When the string is pulled back, it has a lot of potential energy. When you let go of the string, only a tiny amount is transferred to the arrow. Three arrows or one, they're just tiny pieces of wood. The energy in the bow is so great that it will not be used up by pushing them, so they're all going to have the same force behind them.

Understand? If not, I'll try to help you understand better.

[Neo]

mariolover is correct

[Happydude]

isnt that more or less what i said?

[thatmariolover]

isnt that more or less what i said?

It is, I just thought I'd try to clarify it a bit. You were right. You knew what you were talking about as well as anybody else. I just thought I'd try to phrase it another way, and add a bit.

[Happydude]

oh...ok :p

as long as you dont get the credit!

stupid Neo...:p




jk :)

[Happy Dance]

wait.... but the 3 arrows will have more mass then only 1. so im pretty shure that the force of Impact Will be Less then one arrow. There for: the power wont be devided eaqually into 3 from the start ... :-o





only if u have 1 heavy arrow = to 3 normal once then the force of impact will be the same !

[Neo]

Except it's not a closed system of arrows.

[Hero2]

If a train hits a squirrel the squirrels gone if it hits three squirrels they still die.

thus the bow string has soooo much force it doent matter if it is pushing three arrows or one they still go. IMO

What I want to know is ifs its acually possiable to shoot three arrows at one from a regular bow no guides ect..

[Happy Dance]

If a train hits a squirrel the squirrels gone if it hits three squirrels they still die.

thus the bow string has soooo much force it doent matter if it is pushing three arrows or one they still go. IMO

What I want to know is ifs its acually possiable to shoot three arrows at one from a regular bow no guides ect..


yes... but the first
squirrel will sotp some of the force of the train :D

so mass matters =P

[thatmariolover]

No. Period.

If I put one orange in a catapult, it will go 100 meters. If I put 3 oranges in the same catapult, they're still going to go 100 meters. That doesn't change.

Even air resistance wouldn't change because they're still essentially three separate things.

Great squirrel referance by the way.

[Canyarion]

But let's say you're throwing marbles. If you only throw 1 marvel with all your strength, it goes so far you can't even see where it lands.
But if you throw a BAG OF marbles (let's say 100 of them) with all your strength, you won't be able to throw it farther than 10 meter. :unsure:

Perhaps you guys are right about the bow having so much energy.... *thinks*
No it's just impossible, where would the energy go? :distress: It just doesn't make sense...

[Blackmane]

To support what mariolover is saying:
Of course throwing 100 marbles would be different than 1, but I bet you could throw 3 marbles the same distance because you have a lot of energy and momentum in your throw, but not all of it can be taken by the single marble. A bow is similiar: Of course trying to fire 100 arrows wouldn't work, but 3 arrows get almost the same force as 1 because it builds up an enormous amount of potential energy, but in the release, it releases a lot of that energy away because it can only give so much to one arrow. The string will only move an arrow so far, but it has enough energy leftover to fire off several more arrows and releases that through vibrations, heat, etc.

Therefore, add two more arrows to the system and you have the same force in each arrow, and less energy released in different ways.

[Canyarion]

Still doesn't make sense.

Of course, when there is a max speed for the arrow (because of the air resistence thingy).... but then it would be useless to use all your strength when firing arrows. If what you say is true, you might as well fire at 1/3 of max strenght.
And I know that max strenght DOES matter. :p

I'll ask on an archer forum if that exists. ;)

[Kitana85]

Dude, have ANY of you actually done archary?

Physics aside, its freaking hard to balance the three arrows to shoot them symataniously...
The marble senario is irrelevant as you arne't "heaving" the arrows, so the extra weight doesn't matter.

[Neo]

No it's just impossible, where would the energy go? :distress: It just doesn't make sense...

It goes into your arm that you're holding the bow with mostly. That's part of the reason why you have to keep it straight and rigid.

[Dyne]

The string isn't straight when it's pulled back, is it? I think that's the confusing part. It'd be like...

<
| <
<

Arrow one and three wouldn't have as much force, because they wouldn't be centered. But, I don't think it makes a difference.

[DimHalo]

i think all three would have the same force if you were able to balance all three arrows to shoot at the same time and angle

[Happy Dance]

they'll have the same force ..... but lower then only 1 arrow

[thatmariolover]

But let's say you're throwing marbles. If you only throw 1 marvel with all your strength, it goes so far you can't even see where it lands.
But if you throw a BAG OF marbles (let's say 100 of them) with all your strength, you won't be able to throw it farther than 10 meter.

That's actually a good example of where your thinking is going wrong. You keep bringing up other factors into it. We're just talking about sheer strength. Sheer force behind the arrows.

A big bag of marbles has a lot of surface area to catch air resistance, which slows it down. Where as, if you threw 5 marbles, they would go similar distances because they're all getting the same amount of air resistance (virtually nothing). The only change would be where the marble left your hand (since a hand isn't exactly even) and what trajectory you sent the individual marbles.

Kitana, you're talking about the difficulty of balancing arrows. We're not calculating that. We're calculating the effects of 3 arrows being shot if they were perfectly balanced, like jeepnut's slave said.

[Crono]

yes... but the first
squirrel will sotp some of the force of the train :D

so mass matters =P

But the squirrel's mass is irrelevant (sp) to the train's mass. It's like your mass compared to the Earth, according to physics laws, you are also "pulling" the Earth (equal reaction for every action), so if you went 5 000 km into space you would still be pulling the Earth, but your mass compared to the Earth's makes it irrelevant.

If a train with a mass of 40,000 kg hits a squirrel that ways like.. .5kg ... then you won't notice the difference. If the object it hit was much bigger, then you'd see the difference.

If each arrow weighs say... 0.1 kg (probably less than that, or maybe not, but whatever), and the bow weighs 2kg, then the mass of 3 arrows becomes insignificant to the force put out by that bow (F=ma).

[Dark Samurai]

Dude, have ANY of you actually done archary?

Physics aside, its freaking hard to balance the three arrows to shoot them symataniously...
The marble senario is irrelevant as you arne't "heaving" the arrows, so the extra weight doesn't matter.

I agree, marbles arent the same as arrows.

Wouldnt be like this?

|<-/-- = 1/6 power
<-(-- = 2/3 power
|<-\-- = 1/6 power

because the initial arrow would be ahead of the rest of the arrows. maybe, im just guessing :D :D

[Crono]

because the initial arrow would be ahead of the rest of the arrows. maybe, im just guessing :D :D

If there is no target in range, they will all hit the ground at the exact same time (if they are all shot at the exact same time).

[bobcat]

Wouldn't the centre of the string have the most force?

So the middle arrow should go faster than the top and bottom one i'd imagine.

Common sense

[Dark Samurai]

Wouldn't the centre of the string have the most force?

So the middle arrow should go faster than the top and bottom one i'd imagine.

Common sense

thats what i said

[thatmariolover]

thats what i said

And indeed, it's right.

[Dyne]

The string isn't straight when it's pulled back, is it? I think that's the confusing part. It'd be like...

<
| <
<

Arrow one and three wouldn't have as much force, because they wouldn't be centered. But, I don't think it makes a difference.

That's what I said way up there.

[Happy Dance]

Stop arguing ... thats what i said !!

[Hero2]

What thats what I said ...... no wait I killed the squirrels with a train nevermind.

[Happy Dance]

What thats what I said ...... no wait I killed the squirrels with a train nevermind.



bastard ! *starts Crying*

[mickydaniels]

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[Happy Dance]

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i agree =D

[Blackmane]

I think that we need to just accept the fact that Legolas is god and would be able to shoot 10 arrows at once if he wanted to, but didn't have enough time to grab them.

Therefore, he had to make do with three.

[Happydude]

I think that we need to just accept the fact that Legolas is god and would be able to shoot 10 arrows at once if he wanted to, but didn't have enough time to grab them.

Therefore, he had to make do with three.
exactly what i've been trying to tell you people!!! eesh! :rolleyes:

[Su-Yin]

yes...legolas is GoDddd....*droolz....
:p
haha sorry hun...u cute too :D lol

[Happy Dance]

yes...legolas is GoDddd....*droolz....
:p
haha sorry hun...u cute too :D lol

haha ... is it just coz he has really long hair isnt it !! ;)

[Su-Yin]

haha ... is it just coz he has really long hair isnt it !! ;)
no! ....=/.... i dunno...hmm..come to think about...not my type.. :p

[Happy Dance]

yes...legolas is GoDddd :bowdown: ....*droolz....
:p
haha sorry hun...u cute too :D lol



yes... not your type o.O

[bobcat]

Hmm I didn't read anyone's post .............so sorry about that :p

[Canyarion]

Ok I realised that I have a scale plastic bow (actually Faramir's toy bow :p) so I did some research this morning.

Looks like I'm more right than you are. :D When I shot 1 arrow, it got like more than 2 meters far. When I shot 3 at a time, it wasn't even 1 meter.

When I was firing the stupid toy arrows, it all made sense to me. Something light (without much air resistance) goes much farther than something that's 3 times as heavy.

So there's no way you can create a lot more damage by firing 3 at once.

[Blackmane]

Ok I realised that I have a scale plastic bow (actually Faramir's toy bow :p) so I did some research this morning.

Looks like I'm more right than you are. :D When I shot 1 arrow, it got like more than 2 meters far. When I shot 3 at a time, it wasn't even 1 meter.

When I was firing the stupid toy arrows, it all made sense to me. Something light (without much air resistance) goes much farther than something that's 3 times as heavy.

So there's no way you can create a lot more damage by firing 3 at once.

Except that he is hitting in 3 spots instead of one, so who knows.

I think Legolas=God is a better explanation...

[thatmariolover]

Ok I realised that I have a scale plastic bow (actually Faramir's toy bow :p) so I did some research this morning.

Looks like I'm more right than you are. :D When I shot 1 arrow, it got like more than 2 meters far. When I shot 3 at a time, it wasn't even 1 meter.

Umm... I can imagine the resistance on that bow to be like 5 lbs... Maybe less... If that's the case, then the power's going to be expended WAY faster because there's WAY less of it in comparison to an every day bow. Not to mention you're contending with giving all of the arrows the correct trajectory and nocking three arrows securely at the same time.

There are other factors that are affecting your experiment. If you're talking about sheer force behind the three, in a perfect closed system, they would all have the same. That was your initial question. That's the question we're answering.

[Kitana85]

I think that we need to just accept the fact that Legolas is god
:sighs:
Orlando Bloom.....


:drools slightly:

[Dark Samurai]

:sighs:
Orlando Bloom.....


:drools slightly:

Someone give her a TOWEL!!!!

[Canyarion]

Well some guy said that the force behind the arrows would be 3 times bigger because he uses 3 arrows. That's bull****. The total force is approximately the same. :rolleyes:

[Happy Dance]

Well some guy said that the force behind the arrows would be 3 times bigger because he uses 3 arrows. That's bull****. The total force is approximately the same. :rolleyes:



Yes it Is Bull**** ....... and the total Force is approximately LESS ;)

[thatmariolover]

Haha. Nope. It would be more :-D

That's what we've been arguing about this whole time. That if we used three arrows the force would be divided by three. Which isn't true.

They'd each individually have the same force behind them as if you shot a single arrow. Therefore, if they've all got the same force, and you're shooting three, there's going to be three times the force. Again, this is because the full potential energy that a heavy bow posesses is never fully utilized by one arrow or three for that matter.

[Canyarion]

Mariolover, sorry but you're talking crap. I've asked some people (much older than you, IF that matters) that KNOW their physics.

When shooting 1 arrow, you ARE utilizing all the energy of the bow.

Look at it this way: if what you say is true, why wouldn't the arrows be heavier?? Huh? If with heavier arrows you utilize more energy and thus have more power/damage, why would you use lighter ones?
Of why even make the bow so strong so when you're not using all the energy?? That would be just a waist of arm-energy.

Or look at it this way: if you wouldn't utilize all of the strength of the bow, why put all your power into the bow? Why not shoot it at 1/3 of full power, if it doesn't matter?? (ok perhaps this doesn't make as much sense as the other example.)

By the way I don't think you've explained why you're not utilizing all the strength?
If you're talking about a max speed of the arrow, that's just not true. Especially not when you're talking about short distance.

Try to prove me wrong instead of coming up with simple statements. :(

[Bube]

I've got a friend who has a real bow. I'll ask him to shoot 1, and then 3 arrows and see how far, and how deep they go. I hope he shoots it in the ground instead of one of his friends :p

I guess that'll put an end to this.

[Dark Samurai]

I've got a friend who has a real bow. I'll ask him to shoot 1, and then 3 arrows and see how far, and how deep they go. I hope he shoots it in the ground instead of one of his friends :p

I guess that'll put an end to this.

Agreed.

[DimHalo]

well, maybe ... unless we are considering the fact the the fictional character Legolas would be able to balance 3 arrows on a bow much better than a human who may not be an expert at the craft

unless your friend is god as some have stated that Legolas is *LOL*

[Canyarion]

I've got a friend who has a real bow. I'll ask him to shoot 1, and then 3 arrows and see how far, and how deep they go. I hope he shoots it in the ground instead of one of his friends :p
Yeah that would be great. :D Make sure that he uses ALL of his strenght, both of the times... so he won't do anything in favor of 1 of the shots... if you know what I mean :p

[thatmariolover]

Mariolover, sorry but you're talking crap. I've asked some people (much older than you, IF that matters) that KNOW their physics.

Look, if you don't want answers, don't ask any questions. You don't have to be an ass about it. I've taken Physics myself. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure I'm not, and I've had quite a number of people on here back me up.

Seriously. I'm not going to post in this thread again (and frankly, I probably just won't post in any thread that you ask a question in; because clearly you only want to hear what you already believe). This is getting rediculous. Goodnight.

[Jonbo298]

Look, if you don't want answers, don't ask any questions. You don't have to be an ass about it. I've taken Physics myself. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure I'm not, and I've had quite a number of people on here back me up.

Seriously. I'm not going to post in this thread again (and frankly, I probably just won't post in any thread that you ask a question in; because clearly you only want to hear what you already believe). This is getting rediculous. Goodnight.

*is still mesmerized at the milk avatar*

[Canyarion]

Take it easy man...
So far I've heard more things that prove me right than that prove me wrong.

It's all about efficiency. A bow is efficient, especially an Elfen bow. If using 3 arrows would be more efficient, why wouldn't they just use heavier arrows?? :unsure:

Just common sense, as stated in the 2nd post here.

[Bube]

Reviving this 10 day old thread to say that my friend tried it out. He says that he's "absoloutely sure" that the single arrow and the group of arrows went the same distance and went in to the same depth. So that makes 3 arrows more lethal.

Case closed, I guess...

[surfin4lifer]

In actuallity the arrows probably wouldn't do any damage at all to an Elephant that large, most in part because its going to have some hella this skin, and personally I don't think and arrow is gonna puncter anything like that. It'd be like sticking an arrow through a flak jacket.

[Hero2]

I think that we need to just accept the fact that Legolas is god and would be able to shoot 10 arrows at once if he wanted to, but didn't have enough time to grab them.

Therefore, he had to make do with three.
this answers your question.

[Canyarion]

*sadly isn't convinced* I'm sorry....

Bube, perhaps your friend used very light arrows... then it wouldn't make any difference... :unsure:

[MuGen]

wow a physics problem based on a totally fictitious character from middle earth..

good deal...lol